Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?
- Thread starter Bourne3198
- Start date
Silvergoose
Member
I have read this post with great interest, imo, it comes down to this.
We, as a country, have lost a great deal of mechanical talent. The advantage to the poly guns and to the MIM parts is that it only takes a handful of talented people to design, program and mabufacture the molds. Then anyone can be placed in front of a molding machine, for low wages and with little interest in what they are producing. At the end of the day many pieces have been produced. Next step, insert tab A into slot B= Gun.
The few technical people left are producing "Hand Crafted" items. The prices are high, if you compare a HiPoint 45 ACP to a Kimber 45ACP, they both will throw a piece of lead down range. The HiPoint is around $175.00 the Kimber more like $2200.00. I will pay the higher price, because I know when I pull te trigger it will go bang. Yes, HiPoint has a lifetime warranty, great, I can only hope you do not need to send it back during a Home Defense situation.
I will stay with the older S&Ws, and Sigs.
Sorry for the long post.
We, as a country, have lost a great deal of mechanical talent. The advantage to the poly guns and to the MIM parts is that it only takes a handful of talented people to design, program and mabufacture the molds. Then anyone can be placed in front of a molding machine, for low wages and with little interest in what they are producing. At the end of the day many pieces have been produced. Next step, insert tab A into slot B= Gun.
The few technical people left are producing "Hand Crafted" items. The prices are high, if you compare a HiPoint 45 ACP to a Kimber 45ACP, they both will throw a piece of lead down range. The HiPoint is around $175.00 the Kimber more like $2200.00. I will pay the higher price, because I know when I pull te trigger it will go bang. Yes, HiPoint has a lifetime warranty, great, I can only hope you do not need to send it back during a Home Defense situation.
I will stay with the older S&Ws, and Sigs.
Sorry for the long post.
I've always believed Glock bought their way into the police arena. Discounting guns heavily knowing that what the cops carry, the public will buy.
Kind of like VCR's. Beta was better, but VHS sold their machines cheap to get the market share.
Interesting analogy, but Sony lost the format war primarily because they misjudged the public's interest in having longer than 60 minutes of recording time and thought the higher quality argument would win out over 120 minutes of recording time and a lower cost to consumer advantage that the VHS format enjoyed. People simply wanted to record sporting events and play back movies that were longer than an hour and the quality argument was not sufficent enough to overcome more practical concerns.
You could make a parallel comparison with the gun industry and how the polymer guns won their format war because they provided users with a higher capacity product in a lighter package and were able to offer it at a lower price point. Departments and consumers alike have chosen to go with cheaper and more practical over a higher cost product who's quality advantage clearly doesn't make a compelling enough argument to sway the market.
Like Sony eventually producing VHS players, when S&W understood that demand had shifted away from inherently higher cost machined metal guns, they began offering lower cost and lighter weight polymer products that people wanted. While purists may never embrace choosing practical over something they views as made to higher quality standards, a company in the business of making firearms can't afford to ignore changing market demand.
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Agency bean counters and Glocks cheap unit price did away with the 3rd gen pistols. I heard a Glock rep say that they pop a dozen of these plastic frames out of molds every minute for just a few dollars in raw materials. Much cheaper than handfitting parts to a CNC metal framed pistol.
The bean counters like cheap. Glock was looking to build market share. They practically gave the guns away to get it.
Keep in mind that most of the younger officers today, came up in a "gun unfriendly" society. They likely didn't play with toy guns as children. Didn't play with BB guns and learn to hunt. They were taught "guns are bad" in elementary and high school. The majority didn't shoot a handgun till they reached the academy.
To these folks, Glocks/polymer guns are the best. Why else would the agency put them in their holsters?
If all you have had exposure to is plastic striker fired guns, you probably don't even know what a great trigger feels like. You probably regard 3rd gen pistols as "old school" or "outdated". This type usually regards qualifying as a chore. They aren't skilled with their sidearms and are hoping to shoot the minimum passing score. Glocks - plastic striker fired guns - work fine for these folks.
Luckily, there are still agencies out there that will let you carry whatever you wish, within reason.
Too bad the current company calling itself S&W doesn't see the market for metal framed guns that Sig and Beretta seem to see.
I've only eight years max left till I pull the pin. On my last day on the job there will be a hammer fired, metal framed S&W 45 in my holster. It will probably be 30 years old. And still drive tacks. I could care less about ugly plastic guns with lousy triggers. Regards 18DAI
The bean counters like cheap. Glock was looking to build market share. They practically gave the guns away to get it.
Keep in mind that most of the younger officers today, came up in a "gun unfriendly" society. They likely didn't play with toy guns as children. Didn't play with BB guns and learn to hunt. They were taught "guns are bad" in elementary and high school. The majority didn't shoot a handgun till they reached the academy.
To these folks, Glocks/polymer guns are the best. Why else would the agency put them in their holsters?
If all you have had exposure to is plastic striker fired guns, you probably don't even know what a great trigger feels like. You probably regard 3rd gen pistols as "old school" or "outdated". This type usually regards qualifying as a chore. They aren't skilled with their sidearms and are hoping to shoot the minimum passing score. Glocks - plastic striker fired guns - work fine for these folks.
Luckily, there are still agencies out there that will let you carry whatever you wish, within reason.
Too bad the current company calling itself S&W doesn't see the market for metal framed guns that Sig and Beretta seem to see.
I've only eight years max left till I pull the pin. On my last day on the job there will be a hammer fired, metal framed S&W 45 in my holster. It will probably be 30 years old. And still drive tacks. I could care less about ugly plastic guns with lousy triggers. Regards 18DAI
smithscott
Member
I believe there was a confluence of issues that forced the 3rd Generation pistols the way of the dodo. In no particular order, here is my list:
1) Cost. For cost-conscious agencies or municipalities that only pay lip service to officer safety and "best equipped", the Glock was a gift from heaven. Many agencies received new guns and holsters for the cost of the current issue guns. Hard for a cash-strapped agency to turn down that deal. That got the guns into the holsters of many agencies, where citizens were sure to see them. Those citizens then saw the pistols for $100 or more less than a metal-framed gun and bought the Glock. Glock used the LEO market to get people introduced to the Glock brand.
2) Glock was cool. They held lots of rounds (17 rounds in the Glock 17 was a big deal in 1986), had a "wonder finish" that was black and resisted corrosion, had a reputation for reliability, and were "Perfection". Metal-framed guns at the time were blued (dark finish that wears poorly) or stainless (uncool silver finish that wears better) and needed more TLC. If S&W had offered Melonite guns in 1986, Glock may not have made the inroads into the market. That black, tough finish was a big deal at the time. The S&W guns also held 1-2 fewer rounds. "Die Hard 2" did for Glock what "Lethal Weapon" did for the Beretta 92.
3) The striker-fired action (SFA) was new and meant a single trigger pull with no safety lever and no exposed hammer to collect crud. While S&W offered the DAO guns (arguably superior to the SFA), the DAO guns made little headway in the marketplace. S&W offered so many models in 1990 and 1991 that many people had no idea what S&W was doing while Glock pushed one family -- and only one design. All of the S&W guns were hammer-fired (at the time was not cool -- as opposed to now with the "in crowd" going after the SIG DAK and H&K LEM).
4) The one-tool detail strip of the Glock was a huge advantage as anyone could detail strip the gun with a modicum of instruction. For a new shooter, the ease of taking the gun apart to service or modify it was a selling point.
5) The magazine commonality that allowed a Glock 26 or 19 to use the magazines from a 17 made choosing the Glock a "systems" choice. Lots of people -- and agencies -- bought a pair of Glocks because one set of magazines fed a primary and a BUG.
6) Glocks cost less to make as there was no need for skilled labor to fit guns and the polymer frame was much less expensive than metal. That meant higher profit margins.
7) The market begged S&W for a polymer-framed gun. The production capacity had to come from somewhere. The 3rd Generation guns were not selling like they had, so S&W made a business decision.
1) Cost. For cost-conscious agencies or municipalities that only pay lip service to officer safety and "best equipped", the Glock was a gift from heaven. Many agencies received new guns and holsters for the cost of the current issue guns. Hard for a cash-strapped agency to turn down that deal. That got the guns into the holsters of many agencies, where citizens were sure to see them. Those citizens then saw the pistols for $100 or more less than a metal-framed gun and bought the Glock. Glock used the LEO market to get people introduced to the Glock brand.
2) Glock was cool. They held lots of rounds (17 rounds in the Glock 17 was a big deal in 1986), had a "wonder finish" that was black and resisted corrosion, had a reputation for reliability, and were "Perfection". Metal-framed guns at the time were blued (dark finish that wears poorly) or stainless (uncool silver finish that wears better) and needed more TLC. If S&W had offered Melonite guns in 1986, Glock may not have made the inroads into the market. That black, tough finish was a big deal at the time. The S&W guns also held 1-2 fewer rounds. "Die Hard 2" did for Glock what "Lethal Weapon" did for the Beretta 92.
3) The striker-fired action (SFA) was new and meant a single trigger pull with no safety lever and no exposed hammer to collect crud. While S&W offered the DAO guns (arguably superior to the SFA), the DAO guns made little headway in the marketplace. S&W offered so many models in 1990 and 1991 that many people had no idea what S&W was doing while Glock pushed one family -- and only one design. All of the S&W guns were hammer-fired (at the time was not cool -- as opposed to now with the "in crowd" going after the SIG DAK and H&K LEM).
4) The one-tool detail strip of the Glock was a huge advantage as anyone could detail strip the gun with a modicum of instruction. For a new shooter, the ease of taking the gun apart to service or modify it was a selling point.
5) The magazine commonality that allowed a Glock 26 or 19 to use the magazines from a 17 made choosing the Glock a "systems" choice. Lots of people -- and agencies -- bought a pair of Glocks because one set of magazines fed a primary and a BUG.
6) Glocks cost less to make as there was no need for skilled labor to fit guns and the polymer frame was much less expensive than metal. That meant higher profit margins.
7) The market begged S&W for a polymer-framed gun. The production capacity had to come from somewhere. The 3rd Generation guns were not selling like they had, so S&W made a business decision.
Yes & yes.
The plastic frames are provided by one of S&W's long time vendors. They just have to make the barrels & slides, and assemble the other various parts received from vendors.
They have to make the 3rd gen frames (approx 30 minutes on a CNC machine, per frame) as well as the slides & barrels. They also do some of the final machining & finishing in-house for other parts after they're received from vendors (like the manual safeties, slides stops, etc). Then, the 3rd gen's require some knowledge, experience and time for hand-checking & fitting the sear release levers and extractors.
Which do you think ultimately requires more time & money invested by the company? Which can provide the price point being demanded by the bulk of LE agency & private person buyers in today's market?
Sig has seemingly followed a similar path as the S&W of some years ago by adopting a gun-of-the-month philosophy. You really think they'd still be selling as many guns if all they made were a small number of classic models? Look at the pricing.
Look at the newer plastic models Sig has been working to to get up and running. Don't be surprised if they eventually get the P250 up and running and able to replace their metal-frame lineup for LE/Gov sales at some point.
Look at the effort Beretta has been making in introducing plastic pistols. The online "pistol" section is illustrated with one of their plastic guns. Their compact, subcompact & pocket categories are strongly slanted to newer plastic guns. Their "full-size" is an interesting thing to consider, though, since the pricing for the plastic & metal guns isn't really that far apart. Weird.
Like other folks, I've wondered how much longer they'll continue US production and sales of their 92/96/M9/90-TWO guns if the US military decides to shift procurement. It's not exactly common to see a lot of new Beretta metal guns in cop holsters, although you used to be able to see existing agency customers going from 9 to .40 at one time.
I've asked here before when this subject has come up, and I'll ask it again. How many of us are going to rush out to their local gunstore and put deposits on orders for new TSW's which will probably cost upwards of $1,000 - $1,200 per copy? I'd barely be willing to pay that for a PC or an 1911E series. (To be fair, though, in my case that's because of too many years of being spoiled by being able to buy discounted guns as an armorer.
)Even if we were, it's not like it would be even a moderately profitable enterprise for the company. Not when they're using their production capability at their Houlton plant to make all the 1911's, .22's, PPK's and handcuffs they can churn out.
Each new 3rd gen they'd make would take a CNC machine away from making another model which has already proven that it can sell for a profitable price point.
I keep hearing that S&W would really like to see the 3rd gen's go away, even for LE sales for existing agency customers, within the next 10-15 years. The current market simply supports (and demands) the other metal-framed guns they're making at that plant.
Now, if one of the major distributors were to pony up the money for a special run of 20-25K new TSW's? Sure, they could get them, and probably for a decent discount (compared to only ordering a thousand guns). Might take some time, though. Then, they have to be able to sell them for enough to make a good profit on their investment ... as they aren't exactly operating a charity organization, right?
When I was seeing special Demo pricing on TSW's used for T&E for $600-$700/each I thought that was a lot ... and it was more than it used to be ... but it was actually pretty decent compared to how high the prices had been climbing for MSRP and actual sales toward the end of the commercial production.
I do think it's somewhat sad to see S&W being forced into the position of watching Sig being the one to carry the flag that S&W essentially started in this country, meaning meal-framed TDA guns, and then the SRT (which we were told in a Sig armorer class had been designed to try and help them compete against a S&W LE bid).
But, the market forces are something that are going to continue to have the strongest influence in gun sales.
Plastic frames have strongly been replacing metal-frames in consumer demand ... kind of like how semiauto pistols replaced revolvers in the same market.
More's the pity, though.
Just my thoughts, muddled as they may be.
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Gen 3 Guns-R.I.P.
Sadly i believe they are gone. If you don't believe me consider this. Just this week my local shop received an absolutely mint performance center "Shorty Nine" It was one of the 2 tones with the black slide and stainless aluminum frame. This was the PC version of the vaunted and excellent 6906. It came with the 2 brand new 12 round magazines that were standard with the 6906. Because i live in CT and Sandy Hook caused all of the politicians to legislate behavior and proper parenting in the form of the magazine ban, I could not take the mags and immediately began trying to find ten rounders. i started by calling Smith and was told by chuck at customer service "no ten round mags are in stock and that Smith was not going to make them anymore as they are trying to phase out all of the gen 3 guns, and the demand for their parts and accessories."
THESE WERE HIS EXACT WORDS.
I searched for an hour and after all i could find WERE 2 ten round mags on EBAY for $125 each, i concluded i had to pass on the shorty nine purchase as i am a shooter and a pistol without mags is worthless to me.
What a shame. The Gen 3 guns, e.g. TSW's, Shorty 9, .40 and .45's the CQB's etc.. all gone never to be had again for the shields, and plastic M&P wonders.
I have Glocks and M&P's so don't misunderstand me. I think that for their purpose they are good pistols but they are no way in hell ever going to be able to fill the shoes of the long lost Gen 3 and earlier smiths.
just my opinion.
Sadly i believe they are gone. If you don't believe me consider this. Just this week my local shop received an absolutely mint performance center "Shorty Nine" It was one of the 2 tones with the black slide and stainless aluminum frame. This was the PC version of the vaunted and excellent 6906. It came with the 2 brand new 12 round magazines that were standard with the 6906. Because i live in CT and Sandy Hook caused all of the politicians to legislate behavior and proper parenting in the form of the magazine ban, I could not take the mags and immediately began trying to find ten rounders. i started by calling Smith and was told by chuck at customer service "no ten round mags are in stock and that Smith was not going to make them anymore as they are trying to phase out all of the gen 3 guns, and the demand for their parts and accessories."
THESE WERE HIS EXACT WORDS.
I searched for an hour and after all i could find WERE 2 ten round mags on EBAY for $125 each, i concluded i had to pass on the shorty nine purchase as i am a shooter and a pistol without mags is worthless to me.
What a shame. The Gen 3 guns, e.g. TSW's, Shorty 9, .40 and .45's the CQB's etc.. all gone never to be had again for the shields, and plastic M&P wonders.
I have Glocks and M&P's so don't misunderstand me. I think that for their purpose they are good pistols but they are no way in hell ever going to be able to fill the shoes of the long lost Gen 3 and earlier smiths.
just my opinion.
Yes & yes.
The plastic frames are provided by one of S&W's long time vendors. They just have to make the barrels & slides, and assemble the other various parts received from vendors.
They have to make the 3rd gen frames (approx 30 minutes on a CNC machine, per frame) as well as the slides & barrels. They also do some of the final machining & finishing in-house for other parts after they're received from vendors (like the manual safeties, slides stops, etc). Then, the 3rd gen's require some knowledge, experience and time for hand-checking & fitting the sear release levers and extractors.
Which do you think ultimately requires more time & money invested by the company? Which can provide the price point being demanded by the bulk of LE agency & private person buyers in today's market?
Sig has seemingly followed a similar path as the S&W of some years ago by adopting a gun-of-the-month philosophy. You really think they'd still be selling as many guns if all they made were a small number of classic models? Look at the pricing.
Look at the newer plastic models Sig has been working to to get up and running. Don't be surprised if they eventually get the P250 up and running and able to replace their metal-frame lineup for LE/Gov sales at some point.
Look at the effort Beretta has been making in introducing plastic pistols. The online "pistol" section is illustrated with one of their plastic guns. Their compact, subcompact & pocket categories are strongly slanted to newer plastic guns. Their "full-size" is an interesting thing to consider, though, since the pricing for the plastic & metal guns isn't really that far apart. Weird.
Like other folks, I've wondered how much longer they'll continue US production and sales of their 92/96/M9/90-TWO guns if the US military decides to shift procurement. It's not exactly common to see a lot of new Beretta metal guns in cop holsters, although you used to be able to see existing agency customers going from 9 to .40 at one time.
I've asked here before when this subject has come up, and I'll ask it again. How many of us are going to rush out to their local gunstore and put deposits on orders for new TSW's which will probably cost upwards of $1,000 - $1,200 per copy? I'd barely be willing to pay that for a PC or an 1911E series. (To be fair, though, in my case that's because of too many years of being spoiled by being able to buy discounted guns as an armorer.
Even if we were, it's not like it would be even a moderately profitable enterprise for the company. Not when they're using their production capability at their Houlton plant to make all the 1911's, .22's, PPK's and handcuffs they can churn out.
Each new 3rd gen they'd make would take a CNC machine away from making another model which has already proven that it can sell for a profitable price point.
I keep hearing that S&W would really like to see the 3rd gen's go away, even for LE sales for existing agency customers, within the next 10-15 years. The current market simply supports (and demands) the other metal-framed guns they're making at that plant.
Now, if one of the major distributors were to pony up the money for a special run of 20-25K new TSW's? Sure, they could get them, and probably for a decent discount (compared to only ordering a thousand guns). Might take some time, though. Then, they have to be able to sell them for enough to make a good profit on their investment ... as they aren't exactly operating a charity organization, right?
When I was seeing special Demo pricing on TSW's used for T&E for $600-$700/each I thought that was a lot ... and it was more than it used to be ... but it was actually pretty decent compared to how high the prices had been climbing for MSRP and actual sales toward the end of the commercial production.
I do think it's somewhat sad to see S&W being foreced into the position of watching Sig being the one to carry the flag that S&W essentially started in this country, meaning meal-framed TDA guns, and then the SRT (which we were told in a Sig armorer class had been designed to try and help them compete against a S&W LE bid).
But, the market forces are something that are going to continue to have the strongest influence in gun sales.
Plastic frames have strongly been replacing metal-frames in consumer demand ... kind of like how semiauto pistols replaced revolvers in the same market.
More's the pity, though.
Just my thoughts, muddled as they may be.
Pretty much sums it up, I'd say. Especially the who's going to pay the price part.
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I just bought some 10 rd 69 series mags a couple weeks ago. They're still listed on the factory website
Product: 69 Series Stainless Steel Magazine-10 Rd
Gen 3
Ladder i saw that too which is why i called Smith to immediately order some. In fact, i usually do it on line but noticed that when you go to order on line they don't indicate whether they are "in stock". Thats why i called so i could get "in stock confirmation" and then i was going to go grab the shorty 9.
Instead, what i got was as i described. frankly, the rep made no sense to me and sounded like he was trying to just get me off the phone, which is a very Atypical experience for me when contacting Smith. I have had nothing but great service and product support for 20 years from them.
Trust me when i tell you if i could get 4 or 5 10 round mags for a 69 series i would run, not walk, down and immediately buy that shorty 9.
Ladder i saw that too which is why i called Smith to immediately order some. In fact, i usually do it on line but noticed that when you go to order on line they don't indicate whether they are "in stock". Thats why i called so i could get "in stock confirmation" and then i was going to go grab the shorty 9.
Instead, what i got was as i described. frankly, the rep made no sense to me and sounded like he was trying to just get me off the phone, which is a very Atypical experience for me when contacting Smith. I have had nothing but great service and product support for 20 years from them.
Trust me when i tell you if i could get 4 or 5 10 round mags for a 69 series i would run, not walk, down and immediately buy that shorty 9.
As a new shooter, likely to purchase a plastic pistol as my first firearm, I just wanted to say I learned more in 10 minutes reading the above posts than the past 3 months online.
Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
Rich
Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this subject.
Rich
I ordered some other mags back in Jan just after NY passed the SAFE law, and it took me about 6 weeks to get them from Smith. The gun is much harder to find, especially in that condition, so I would buy the gun and get the mags later. You can even find them here in the classifieds.
Silversmok3
Member
I hate to say it,but pretty soon metal semi autos will be considered a niche product like a .44 Magnum revolver.
Take a look at the meat and potatoes section of your local gun store.Not much metal there,right?
As to Sig and Beretta,if another forum is to be trusted,the Italian home office deliberately stopped production on the Vertec and Elite 92s in favor of shifting production capacity to the polymer PX4. Were it not for Uncle Sams contract with Beretta and Sigs contracts with their various Federal agencies like the USSS,USCG and AF OSI among others ,those guns.would have long since followed the 3rd Gen into the -discontinued- list.
Take a look at the meat and potatoes section of your local gun store.Not much metal there,right?
As to Sig and Beretta,if another forum is to be trusted,the Italian home office deliberately stopped production on the Vertec and Elite 92s in favor of shifting production capacity to the polymer PX4. Were it not for Uncle Sams contract with Beretta and Sigs contracts with their various Federal agencies like the USSS,USCG and AF OSI among others ,those guns.would have long since followed the 3rd Gen into the -discontinued- list.
Can't say I disagree with the posts here. Just like video killed the radio star, polymer killed the steel frame auto. Like Bob Dylan said, times they are a changin'...
Other than the WVSP I honestly don't know of a single agency in WV issuing metal frame pistols. There might be a few sheriff's departments still holding into their Sig's but if there is, they're getting fewer every year.
Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk
Other than the WVSP I honestly don't know of a single agency in WV issuing metal frame pistols. There might be a few sheriff's departments still holding into their Sig's but if there is, they're getting fewer every year.
Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk
VTHokiesDuckHunter
Member
Interesting, but MTV almost has no videos anymore: while Internet radio is hot, and vinyl records are making somewhat of a comeback!
Still a niche, but nonetheless some people appreciate quality and will pay for it.
Still a niche, but nonetheless some people appreciate quality and will pay for it.
S&W's line of 1911's seems to be doing very well, so they're still making metal semi's. Waiting times are up to a year or more for some of their offerings. I love my Smith 1911. Flawless with 1,000 rds thru it.
losingle
Member
Someone sure likes those old metal guns, the Performance Center currently has a 7 month backlog for refinishing, 35 year vet for S&W sez hes never seen so many 3rd gens in for rehab. New life for old pistols. Mine are in my will, guess you can melt plastic.
finesse_r
Member
There were a lot of S&W Third Generation pistols made before the recent close of most production lines. Those guns were made to last and they have lasted.
There is still a decreasing supply of Third Generation pistols that are available in the used market. The Third Generation pistols are alive and well in the hands of those people smart enough to buy them when they become avaialable and smart enough to pay 400 to 700 for them even though they can get a new plastic fantastic for less.
What is no longer available much is the very cheap third generation pistols that were available a few years back when all the law enforcement agencies were dumping them into the market. Most law enforcement agencies have either gone to the plastic fantastic or they are keeping their all metal guns.
Unfortunately many of the high demand TSW models are being bought up by savvy buyers pretty quickly when they appear for sale on the market. That means these TSW models in particular will become more difficult to find and more expensive to buy. Unfortunately I sold several of mine to finance my lust for pre-lock S&W and Ruger revolvers. Had I more robust finances I would have just kept them and also bought the revolvers also. LOL
There is still a decreasing supply of Third Generation pistols that are available in the used market. The Third Generation pistols are alive and well in the hands of those people smart enough to buy them when they become avaialable and smart enough to pay 400 to 700 for them even though they can get a new plastic fantastic for less.
What is no longer available much is the very cheap third generation pistols that were available a few years back when all the law enforcement agencies were dumping them into the market. Most law enforcement agencies have either gone to the plastic fantastic or they are keeping their all metal guns.
Unfortunately many of the high demand TSW models are being bought up by savvy buyers pretty quickly when they appear for sale on the market. That means these TSW models in particular will become more difficult to find and more expensive to buy. Unfortunately I sold several of mine to finance my lust for pre-lock S&W and Ruger revolvers. Had I more robust finances I would have just kept them and also bought the revolvers also. LOL
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need for a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no problem if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey
) in the "classic line".Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?
And just to add, I do know there are those cops who look at their sidearm as more than just a tool, referred too as "life saving equipment" they master it on their own nickel, and/or the department might be wise enough to let them choose a piece from an approved list or carry their own as long as they can qualify with it.
I for one am wholly in favor of letting those who go in harms way choose their own weapon, it gives them more confidence and the ability to put rounds on target!
I wonder how many cops would go back to their previous service weapon if given the chance? Dale
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Silversmok3
Member
Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need fir a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no e if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey
Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?
Dale
The gun nut in me says S&W should release a 4506/4566 limited run.
The Business major in me says there ain't even close to enough demand to bother.Why tie up the lines when there's a backlog as it is on SW1911s?
We have to think in terms of the business case-who outside this forum would buy a reissued 3rd Gen? Sig fans? Doubt that.Glock fans?I don't think so.See any tactical instructors like Chris Costa posing with a 1006? I don't either. So the mainstream is out,unless the entire gun profession abandons it's 20+year love affair with Glock.
That leaves people who want a traditional .45 -and they'll be at the 1911 counter,and we thus circle back to the SW1911
There may be a place for the 4006s,except now Smith's competing with their own M&P.Same problem with the 9mm 5906.
IMO,money talks and BS walks.If we can band together and pre-purchase a run of 5906s for forum members,perhaps the home office will consider the issue.If we can't even unite together as Smith collectors to buy a pre-purchased lot of handguns,why should the company lift a finger for general production?
Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need fir a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no e if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey
Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?
Dale
I'd buy 3. S&W really should make a 3rd gen pistol again.
Bourne, from my perspective in a medium sized urban PD, the interest in the polymer pistol was strictly based on the striker fired action and simplicity of training.
My department requires officers to supply their own firearms & equipment ( they get a maintenance allowance. Therefore cost was not an issue. We did get a "deal" from the local distributer (he wanted the trade-ins from the guys carrying 669s, 6904s, 6906s which were the then current authorized pistols).
To the end user the cost difference was negligible.
Outrider
Member
Missing the point...
Most of these posts -- good and accurate as many are -- have missed a key point.
Just because Smith isn't currently making 3rd Gen guns HARDLY means 3rd Gens are DEAD...
These guns will very likely endure in substantial quantities -- in ever increasing demand -- for generations to come.
They're also a very durable product -- with an extremely, extremely long lifespan.
That HARDLY constitutes DEAD.
Not in current production...True.
Dead? No...
(I prefer to think of it as being on..."sabbatical"...)
Remember that Smith once SWORE they'd never make 1911s...Look at their lineup now...
Also, they killed the Centennial series. Demand brought it back -- and not only that, but in a dramatically product-improved version.
With as much pent-up demand as there is, Smith would be foolish beyond all measure not to do special limited runs on 3rd Gens -- regularly...
Plus, Smith, to honor their lifetime product pledge, will have to keep product support and parts in play.
We just need to remind them -- give them links like this -- and keep poking them, gently, with a very sharp stick. They need to keep before them the realization that we want to buy more -- and we PREFER quality guns every bit as good as a 1911 that are in current production...
(And there are more of us converts daily...)
Most of these posts -- good and accurate as many are -- have missed a key point.
Just because Smith isn't currently making 3rd Gen guns HARDLY means 3rd Gens are DEAD...
These guns will very likely endure in substantial quantities -- in ever increasing demand -- for generations to come.
They're also a very durable product -- with an extremely, extremely long lifespan.
That HARDLY constitutes DEAD.
Not in current production...True.
Dead? No...
(I prefer to think of it as being on..."sabbatical"...)
Remember that Smith once SWORE they'd never make 1911s...Look at their lineup now...
Also, they killed the Centennial series. Demand brought it back -- and not only that, but in a dramatically product-improved version.
With as much pent-up demand as there is, Smith would be foolish beyond all measure not to do special limited runs on 3rd Gens -- regularly...
Plus, Smith, to honor their lifetime product pledge, will have to keep product support and parts in play.
We just need to remind them -- give them links like this -- and keep poking them, gently, with a very sharp stick. They need to keep before them the realization that we want to buy more -- and we PREFER quality guns every bit as good as a 1911 that are in current production...
(And there are more of us converts daily...)
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Outrider
Member
Just an unpleasant side thought...
The original poster used the term "killed" for what polymer guns did to 3rd Gens -- clearly referring to Glock...
Let your mind drift back to 1994 -- and the so-called Assault Weapons ban. Remember 10-round Glocks -- and how utterly unappealing those were?
Clearly, that limit on magazine capacity "killed" much of the Glock "advantage"...However much one might argue for Glocks, for a mere 10 rounds, putting up with that weird shaped grip -- which seems to fit no one except perhaps a long-fingered NBA star -- took much of their luster away.
The ban also helped broaden and deepen the appreciation for 3rd Gen guns. It was then and there I became a confirmed 3rd Gen fan.
Lest we forget, apart from constant vigilence, we're one Democratic Congress and president away from having a more severe ban than we had before.
That could mean no more Glocks with the "swoosh" of a pen.
As sad as it is to say, what one name do you hear from the media -- in mass shootings behind "AR-15" and "assault" weapon?
Often, it's "Glock" -- and "high capacity magazines."
Like it or not, legislative fiat could be what eventually "kills" the polymer gun.
And, like it or not, the Pierce Morgans and Dianne Feinsteins won't be satisfied until they confiscate every last gun in this country.
The original poster used the term "killed" for what polymer guns did to 3rd Gens -- clearly referring to Glock...
Let your mind drift back to 1994 -- and the so-called Assault Weapons ban. Remember 10-round Glocks -- and how utterly unappealing those were?
Clearly, that limit on magazine capacity "killed" much of the Glock "advantage"...However much one might argue for Glocks, for a mere 10 rounds, putting up with that weird shaped grip -- which seems to fit no one except perhaps a long-fingered NBA star -- took much of their luster away.
The ban also helped broaden and deepen the appreciation for 3rd Gen guns. It was then and there I became a confirmed 3rd Gen fan.
Lest we forget, apart from constant vigilence, we're one Democratic Congress and president away from having a more severe ban than we had before.
That could mean no more Glocks with the "swoosh" of a pen.
As sad as it is to say, what one name do you hear from the media -- in mass shootings behind "AR-15" and "assault" weapon?
Often, it's "Glock" -- and "high capacity magazines."
Like it or not, legislative fiat could be what eventually "kills" the polymer gun.
And, like it or not, the Pierce Morgans and Dianne Feinsteins won't be satisfied until they confiscate every last gun in this country.
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If Sig can make steel guns and turn a profit so can S&W.
S&W has a couple of real winners in their line-up. The 3913 and TSW version of it are truly classic guns, and they fit the modern desire for small and compact dependable carry guns. Same with the 4513 and TSW version.
They don't have to come back and make all the third gens. The 5906 is a great gun, but it's too big for concealed carry, and not a target gun either. Let the 1911 fill that role. 6906? No need.
As for taking up machine time, so what? put your trained gunsmiths on a revitalized TSW line and hire some new kids to slap together plastic guns. Sell the TSW's for Sig type prices. I'd buy a 3193TSW for $800, and they may not have to cost that much even.
Bringing back some real winners will boost S&W's reputation, put some great gunsmiths back to work doing what they love, and put a healthy dent in Sig and Beretta sales....
.
S&W has a couple of real winners in their line-up. The 3913 and TSW version of it are truly classic guns, and they fit the modern desire for small and compact dependable carry guns. Same with the 4513 and TSW version.
They don't have to come back and make all the third gens. The 5906 is a great gun, but it's too big for concealed carry, and not a target gun either. Let the 1911 fill that role. 6906? No need.
As for taking up machine time, so what? put your trained gunsmiths on a revitalized TSW line and hire some new kids to slap together plastic guns. Sell the TSW's for Sig type prices. I'd buy a 3193TSW for $800, and they may not have to cost that much even.
Bringing back some real winners will boost S&W's reputation, put some great gunsmiths back to work doing what they love, and put a healthy dent in Sig and Beretta sales....
.
Outrider
Member
4506s and 1006s!!!!!
My vote goes along obvious lines: Smith needs to bring back their 4506-series and the 1006-series.
To me, these are far and away the best semi-autos they've ever made -- with no nod to the 1911.
My vote goes along obvious lines: Smith needs to bring back their 4506-series and the 1006-series.
To me, these are far and away the best semi-autos they've ever made -- with no nod to the 1911.
Outrider
Member
3rd Gens are FULLY up to date...
Earlier, a poster contended that 3rd Gens are a dated design...
Pardon me in differing...
Of course, you could try -- unsuccessfully -- to make the same argument with 1911s -- a 102-year-old gun.
But the 1006-series and 4506-series are EVERY bit as good and effective as the 1911.
Earlier, a poster contended that 3rd Gens are a dated design...
Pardon me in differing...
Of course, you could try -- unsuccessfully -- to make the same argument with 1911s -- a 102-year-old gun.
But the 1006-series and 4506-series are EVERY bit as good and effective as the 1911.
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
More importantly you forgot to mention that the one pistol that's on every news cast, and on every TV gun show is the Glock. Plus the amount of hype that surrounds it!
Plenty of examples of its toughness and ability to take abuse are on youtube. Matter of fact Smiths own M&P runs a poor second to the Glock according to the sages in magazines and on TV...kinda funny huh?
Also I've noticed in these very threads how various members who already own an M&P or Glock buy an old 3rd Gen on either a whim or by reading how we wax about them, then go out and shoot it and are FLABBERGASTED by its accuracy, reliability, and less recoil! Granted not every 3rd Gen is "match grade" accurate or worse, but then consider the age and wear on them.
So while it may not make good business sense or be touted by a "tactical trainer" there is a demand out there, albeit a small yet VOCAL one! And somebody is sure buying them via the gun web sites!
Dale
That was tried here a few years ago, and if I remember correctly they couldn't even get 50(not even close to that
) people to commit. I forget the gun that they were trying to purchase but it was around $500 not the $1000-1200 mentioned by fastbolt.Now, if someone starts a collection to produce some Pre War 4 inch N frame revolvers, I'm good for 5 or 10.
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Silversmok3
Member
I'd have to disagree.
The 1911 is much easier to manage for the novice then the 4506 or 4566.The S&W pistols also weren't the duty sidearm of the US Military for over 100 years.
Understand, functionally the 3rd Gens are not obsolete.That being said,Smith and Wesson is a business.Their job is to make money selling guns,not necessarily to make the best pistols they possibly can produce.Those two goals are NOT the same.
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