Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?

[WR Moore]

Price point does matter to large purchasers. We were able to buy everyone new M&P40s and web gear for less money that buying those of us (about 1/2) new 4006s because we couldn't get ammo for our 1006s.

Secondly, the improved egronomics, the abililty to tailor the pistol to the user (grip inserts), lower bore line and same trigger pull all the time improved everyones scores.

I'm gonna throw the BS flag on corporate greed. I expect the profit margin per unit is about the same, taking the lower price and production costs of the poly guns into account. The thing is, if you only sell high buck guns to afficinados, you don't cover expenses and go broke.

 

[losingle]

No to ergonomics, grips can be customized for metal or plastic.

Yes to economics. Greedy corporations. Sign of the times.

Weight no.1, when I arrived in Vietnam, marines were packing the very reliable m14 and hated the jammin plastic m16. The navy followed suit. Wasn't long that fire fighting (1% of the time) took a back seat to packing the extra weight (99% of the time).

 

[Silversmok3]

Price point be damned, I'd buy new 3rd Gens despite the higher price!
As to the ethos being from the 50s, gee I don't know Silversmok3 but it sure seems a lot of folks find the gentle curve of the ancient 39 very pleasing to their hands. Plus the 3rd Gen did give you the option of either a curved or straight backstrap, not to mention the gobs of aftermarket grips with various grains and textures. Not something capable with the poly pieces. Dale

Aftermarket grips can only do so much.The Model 39s grip is darn near perfect-but it's single stack.The double stack Model 59s feel like bricks.

Hold an M&P after a 5906 ,and you'll see right away why the ergos matter.I shot one back to back with a 5903 ,and as much as it guts me to admit it the M&Ps easier to hit with. The more hands that can hold a gun well,the more people Smith can sell them to.

As to a re-issue,that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.One,few shooters are dedicated enough to master the DA pull.Two,it costs more to make a metal handgun.

 

[raidersrule]

Have you looked at a policeman's utility belt lately? They're carrying a tremendous amount of "stuff" that has to be a real pain to the lower back.

Couple that with the fact that most are not "gun guys" (horror!) and they'll take the weight reduction over the beauty of a 3rd Gen any day.

M&P's and Glocks are both fine hand guns. They're reliable and easy to use. I have a 5906 I will not trade for anything but it's a range gun.

I do several different exercises to keep the strength in my back for just this reason ( and I carry a Sig P229 at work because the bossman says so).

I would carry a 5903 or 4563 at work in a heartbeat if they would let me, though.

Having said that, I'd also carry my Glock 22 and be perfectly happy.

I'm not a one manufacturer only guy. I equally love my Smiths (8 3rd gens and counting) and my Glocks.

 

[slfree]

I well remember when the Glock 17 was gaining a foothold in the Police world. And they were much cheaper than the all metal guns. They were being purchased by under paid cops and underfunded departments.
I think of the first gen magazines that were so scored by the metal catch that they became useless. Every owner talked about torture tests, but you could still squeeze them and they flexed. Their generation had grown up with most everything in their lives having been metal or wood, in the olden days. For them plastic was a natural progression. For older guys striker fired guns were the definition of cheap guns used on Saturday nights. The youngsters did not even notice the missing hammer. These were the days when an officer with a revolver was old fashioned. The days when even I succumbed and bought an auto-loader. (4506) I remember opining that these plastic wonder weapons would improve, as the plastics improved and they would be the overall winner in the Police market. After a few full days and an extra job, the 39 oz alloy Smith did become an anchor. But I trusted it like no gun before it and never bought into the plastic. I believe the plastic frame while never as strong as metal is every bit as good. But it won't be good for near as long. But each generation has less and less trouble parting with what works in trade for what's new. A disposable side arm is no different to them, than an I-Phone. Only collectors care for longevity today.

 

[Outrider]

MSRP????

I wonder what the MSRP would be on 3rd Gen. Smiths if they were still produced? I bet that has a lot to do with it.

Sadly, it would probably be $900-$1,200...

The Smith regional sales manager told me, plainly, S&W was moving toward cheaper to produce pistols about the time they started phasing out the 3rd Gens and trying to ramp up Sigmas...

Funny thing, though...

I liked the Sigma -- until I shot it. Then I intensely disliked it -- and have never picked up another. But, at the same time, the S&W manager had loaned me his personal 1086 -- for me to shoot against the Sigma and a couple of otherwise acquired Glocks.

I expected to hate the 1086 too -- as DAO autos seemed -- bluntly -- just stupid.

But I shot it -- and tore the target up! I shot that 1086 better than just about anything else I'd ever fired. It was unreal!

Shooting with me was a diehard Hard Glock Cafe armorer. He liked the Sigma ("They're going to clean Glock's clock with this...") -- and found the 1086 fantastic.

After shooting the 1086, in fact, we just stood there gaping at each other in disbelief. I still can't believe how well both of us shot with that pistol...

It was then that the DAO 3rd Gen Smiths became one of my favorite pistols...

(By the way, the Smith rep said Smith would likely produce special runs from time to time. In my opinion, that's the best bet for keeping the 3rd Gen alive. We need to press -- and press hard -- for Smith to do that...)

 

[Bourne3198]

Weight no.1, when I arrived in Vietnam, marines were packing the very reliable m14 and hated the jammin plastic m16. The navy followed suit. Wasn't long that fire fighting (1% of the time) took a back seat to packing the extra weight (99% of the time).

Actually, 90% of the people I work with aren't "gun guys" and would do exactly the above. To some, the issued Glock is just an arm rest on their duty belt. If I was Chief and gave the option to carry a 4006, 4586 or a Glock 22, I'm sure they'd pick the lighter gun.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Aftermarket grips can only do so much.The Model 39s grip is darn near perfect-but it's single stack.The double stack Model 59s feel like bricks.

Hold an M&P after a 5906 ,and you'll see right away why the ergos matter.I shot one back to back with a 5903 ,and as much as it guts me to admit it the M&Ps easier to hit with. The more hands that can hold a gun well,the more people Smith can sell them to.

As to a re-issue,that's unlikely for a couple of reasons.One,few shooters are dedicated enough to master the DA pull.Two,it costs more to make a metal handgun.

I've done just that, M&P9 and my ancient 5946 same trigger pull for each (although the M&P was lighter yet stagey) accuracy was commendable for the new kid (just released M&P9 at the time) and yet the old timer gave me one ragged hole at 15 yards.
As for the single stack thing, you full well that single stack nines are all the rage amongst CCW folk. And it's not so much the length of the pistol but its girth that's the problem to hide. You can hide a flat gun and handle better than a fat one.

And yes I've noticed the over burdened police officer, holster, sidearm, two-three sets of cuffs, up too three cel phones, a portable, three spare mags, a baton, two to three pair of blue safety gloves for pat downs as well as suspenders to keep everything up.
Yet I have to ask, is the polymer pistol that much lighter than an alloy framed one? Well for me, they're about the same. I've replaced my G19 with a Smith 457, its about the same weight loaded compared with the 19, but a lot thinner. Sure I gave up 15 rounds of 9mm, but I have 7 of .45 plus two reloads instead of one.
Also reading some if the past posts on this and other forums, it seems a lot of shooters and carriers are rediscovering these older pieces and liking them! Plus the problems surfacing with the new pieces is out there too.
Dale

 

[Silversmok3]

I've done just that, M&P9 and my ancient 5946 same trigger pull for each (although the M&P was lighter yet stagey) accuracy was commendable for the new kid (just released M&P9 at the time) and yet the old timer gave me one ragged hole at 15 yards.
As for the single stack thing, you full well that single stack nines are all the rage amongst CCW folk. And it's not so much the length of the pistol but its girth that's the problem to hide. You can hide a flat gun and handle better than a fat one.

And yes I've noticed the over burdened police officer, holster, sidearm, two-three sets of cuffs, up too three cel phones, a portable, three spare mags, a baton, two to three pair of blue safety gloves for pat downs as well as suspenders to keep everything up.
Yet I have to ask, is the polymer pistol that much lighter than an alloy framed one? Well for me, they're about the same. I've replaced my G19 with a Smith 457, its about the same weight loaded compared with the 19, but a lot thinner. Sure I gave up 15 rounds of 9mm, but I have 7 of .45 plus two reloads instead of one.
Also reading some if the past posts on this and other forums, it seems a lot of shooters and carriers are rediscovering these older pieces and liking them! Plus the problems surfacing with the new pieces is out there too.
Dale

Dale,you and I are NOT representatitve of the typical police officer and gun owner.

While we would love to say that every person who walks onto a LE qualifying range is a gun person,that's simply not the case.Many police department brass-like the NYPD- are more concerned about liability suits from dead suspects' relatives then their officers making it home at night.If the department in question barely trains their officers due to money or politics, I know which gun they'll do better with-and it won't be the old girl,I'm pained to say.Qualification scores among uninterested officers improve with striker fired weapons for a reason-they don't take as many rounds to learn.

 

[Lost Lake]

I've always believed Glock bought their way into the police arena. Discounting guns heavily knowing that what the cops carry, the public will buy.

Kind of like VCR's. Beta was better, but VHS sold their machines cheap to get the market share.

.

 

[jdh]

When Saf-T-Hammer bought the company they didn't want to take the trouble to retrofit ILS parts to them.

 

[Silvergoose]

I have read this post with great interest, imo, it comes down to this.
We, as a country, have lost a great deal of mechanical talent. The advantage to the poly guns and to the MIM parts is that it only takes a handful of talented people to design, program and mabufacture the molds. Then anyone can be placed in front of a molding machine, for low wages and with little interest in what they are producing. At the end of the day many pieces have been produced. Next step, insert tab A into slot B= Gun.
The few technical people left are producing "Hand Crafted" items. The prices are high, if you compare a HiPoint 45 ACP to a Kimber 45ACP, they both will throw a piece of lead down range. The HiPoint is around $175.00 the Kimber more like $2200.00. I will pay the higher price, because I know when I pull te trigger it will go bang. Yes, HiPoint has a lifetime warranty, great, I can only hope you do not need to send it back during a Home Defense situation.
I will stay with the older S&Ws, and Sigs.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[redrock]

I've always believed Glock bought their way into the police arena. Discounting guns heavily knowing that what the cops carry, the public will buy.

Kind of like VCR's. Beta was better, but VHS sold their machines cheap to get the market share.

Interesting analogy, but Sony lost the format war primarily because they misjudged the public's interest in having longer than 60 minutes of recording time and thought the higher quality argument would win out over 120 minutes of recording time and a lower cost to consumer advantage that the VHS format enjoyed. People simply wanted to record sporting events and play back movies that were longer than an hour and the quality argument was not sufficent enough to overcome more practical concerns.

You could make a parallel comparison with the gun industry and how the polymer guns won their format war because they provided users with a higher capacity product in a lighter package and were able to offer it at a lower price point. Departments and consumers alike have chosen to go with cheaper and more practical over a higher cost product who's quality advantage clearly doesn't make a compelling enough argument to sway the market.

Like Sony eventually producing VHS players, when S&W understood that demand had shifted away from inherently higher cost machined metal guns, they began offering lower cost and lighter weight polymer products that people wanted. While purists may never embrace choosing practical over something they views as made to higher quality standards, a company in the business of making firearms can't afford to ignore changing market demand.

 

[18DAI]

Agency bean counters and Glocks cheap unit price did away with the 3rd gen pistols. I heard a Glock rep say that they pop a dozen of these plastic frames out of molds every minute for just a few dollars in raw materials. Much cheaper than handfitting parts to a CNC metal framed pistol.

The bean counters like cheap. Glock was looking to build market share. They practically gave the guns away to get it.

Keep in mind that most of the younger officers today, came up in a "gun unfriendly" society. They likely didn't play with toy guns as children. Didn't play with BB guns and learn to hunt. They were taught "guns are bad" in elementary and high school. The majority didn't shoot a handgun till they reached the academy.

To these folks, Glocks/polymer guns are the best. Why else would the agency put them in their holsters?

If all you have had exposure to is plastic striker fired guns, you probably don't even know what a great trigger feels like. You probably regard 3rd gen pistols as "old school" or "outdated". This type usually regards qualifying as a chore. They aren't skilled with their sidearms and are hoping to shoot the minimum passing score. Glocks - plastic striker fired guns - work fine for these folks.

Luckily, there are still agencies out there that will let you carry whatever you wish, within reason.

Too bad the current company calling itself S&W doesn't see the market for metal framed guns that Sig and Beretta seem to see.

I've only eight years max left till I pull the pin. On my last day on the job there will be a hammer fired, metal framed S&W 45 in my holster. It will probably be 30 years old. And still drive tacks. I could care less about ugly plastic guns with lousy triggers. Regards 18DAI

 

[smithscott]

I believe there was a confluence of issues that forced the 3rd Generation pistols the way of the dodo. In no particular order, here is my list:

1) Cost. For cost-conscious agencies or municipalities that only pay lip service to officer safety and "best equipped", the Glock was a gift from heaven. Many agencies received new guns and holsters for the cost of the current issue guns. Hard for a cash-strapped agency to turn down that deal. That got the guns into the holsters of many agencies, where citizens were sure to see them. Those citizens then saw the pistols for $100 or more less than a metal-framed gun and bought the Glock. Glock used the LEO market to get people introduced to the Glock brand.

2) Glock was cool. They held lots of rounds (17 rounds in the Glock 17 was a big deal in 1986), had a "wonder finish" that was black and resisted corrosion, had a reputation for reliability, and were "Perfection". Metal-framed guns at the time were blued (dark finish that wears poorly) or stainless (uncool silver finish that wears better) and needed more TLC. If S&W had offered Melonite guns in 1986, Glock may not have made the inroads into the market. That black, tough finish was a big deal at the time. The S&W guns also held 1-2 fewer rounds. "Die Hard 2" did for Glock what "Lethal Weapon" did for the Beretta 92.

3) The striker-fired action (SFA) was new and meant a single trigger pull with no safety lever and no exposed hammer to collect crud. While S&W offered the DAO guns (arguably superior to the SFA), the DAO guns made little headway in the marketplace. S&W offered so many models in 1990 and 1991 that many people had no idea what S&W was doing while Glock pushed one family -- and only one design. All of the S&W guns were hammer-fired (at the time was not cool -- as opposed to now with the "in crowd" going after the SIG DAK and H&K LEM).

4) The one-tool detail strip of the Glock was a huge advantage as anyone could detail strip the gun with a modicum of instruction. For a new shooter, the ease of taking the gun apart to service or modify it was a selling point.

5) The magazine commonality that allowed a Glock 26 or 19 to use the magazines from a 17 made choosing the Glock a "systems" choice. Lots of people -- and agencies -- bought a pair of Glocks because one set of magazines fed a primary and a BUG.

6) Glocks cost less to make as there was no need for skilled labor to fit guns and the polymer frame was much less expensive than metal. That meant higher profit margins.

7) The market begged S&W for a polymer-framed gun. The production capacity had to come from somewhere. The 3rd Generation guns were not selling like they had, so S&W made a business decision.

 

[Fastbolt]

Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen? ... Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?

Yes & yes.

The plastic frames are provided by one of S&W's long time vendors. They just have to make the barrels & slides, and assemble the other various parts received from vendors.

They have to make the 3rd gen frames (approx 30 minutes on a CNC machine, per frame) as well as the slides & barrels. They also do some of the final machining & finishing in-house for other parts after they're received from vendors (like the manual safeties, slides stops, etc). Then, the 3rd gen's require some knowledge, experience and time for hand-checking & fitting the sear release levers and extractors.

Which do you think ultimately requires more time & money invested by the company? Which can provide the price point being demanded by the bulk of LE agency & private person buyers in today's market?

Sig has seemingly followed a similar path as the S&W of some years ago by adopting a gun-of-the-month philosophy. You really think they'd still be selling as many guns if all they made were a small number of classic models? Look at the pricing.

Look at the newer plastic models Sig has been working to to get up and running. Don't be surprised if they eventually get the P250 up and running and able to replace their metal-frame lineup for LE/Gov sales at some point.

Look at the effort Beretta has been making in introducing plastic pistols. The online "pistol" section is illustrated with one of their plastic guns. Their compact, subcompact & pocket categories are strongly slanted to newer plastic guns. Their "full-size" is an interesting thing to consider, though, since the pricing for the plastic & metal guns isn't really that far apart. Weird.

Like other folks, I've wondered how much longer they'll continue US production and sales of their 92/96/M9/90-TWO guns if the US military decides to shift procurement. It's not exactly common to see a lot of new Beretta metal guns in cop holsters, although you used to be able to see existing agency customers going from 9 to .40 at one time.

I've asked here before when this subject has come up, and I'll ask it again. How many of us are going to rush out to their local gunstore and put deposits on orders for new TSW's which will probably cost upwards of $1,000 - $1,200 per copy? I'd barely be willing to pay that for a PC or an 1911E series. (To be fair, though, in my case that's because of too many years of being spoiled by being able to buy discounted guns as an armorer. )

Even if we were, it's not like it would be even a moderately profitable enterprise for the company. Not when they're using their production capability at their Houlton plant to make all the 1911's, .22's, PPK's and handcuffs they can churn out.

Each new 3rd gen they'd make would take a CNC machine away from making another model which has already proven that it can sell for a profitable price point.

I keep hearing that S&W would really like to see the 3rd gen's go away, even for LE sales for existing agency customers, within the next 10-15 years. The current market simply supports (and demands) the other metal-framed guns they're making at that plant.

Now, if one of the major distributors were to pony up the money for a special run of 20-25K new TSW's? Sure, they could get them, and probably for a decent discount (compared to only ordering a thousand guns). Might take some time, though. Then, they have to be able to sell them for enough to make a good profit on their investment ... as they aren't exactly operating a charity organization, right?

When I was seeing special Demo pricing on TSW's used for T&E for $600-$700/each I thought that was a lot ... and it was more than it used to be ... but it was actually pretty decent compared to how high the prices had been climbing for MSRP and actual sales toward the end of the commercial production.

I do think it's somewhat sad to see S&W being forced into the position of watching Sig being the one to carry the flag that S&W essentially started in this country, meaning meal-framed TDA guns, and then the SRT (which we were told in a Sig armorer class had been designed to try and help them compete against a S&W LE bid).

But, the market forces are something that are going to continue to have the strongest influence in gun sales.

Plastic frames have strongly been replacing metal-frames in consumer demand ... kind of like how semiauto pistols replaced revolvers in the same market.

More's the pity, though.

Just my thoughts, muddled as they may be.

 

[cometpx4]

Gen 3 Guns-R.I.P.

Sadly i believe they are gone. If you don't believe me consider this. Just this week my local shop received an absolutely mint performance center "Shorty Nine" It was one of the 2 tones with the black slide and stainless aluminum frame. This was the PC version of the vaunted and excellent 6906. It came with the 2 brand new 12 round magazines that were standard with the 6906. Because i live in CT and Sandy Hook caused all of the politicians to legislate behavior and proper parenting in the form of the magazine ban, I could not take the mags and immediately began trying to find ten rounders. i started by calling Smith and was told by chuck at customer service "no ten round mags are in stock and that Smith was not going to make them anymore as they are trying to phase out all of the gen 3 guns, and the demand for their parts and accessories."
THESE WERE HIS EXACT WORDS.
I searched for an hour and after all i could find WERE 2 ten round mags on EBAY for $125 each, i concluded i had to pass on the shorty nine purchase as i am a shooter and a pistol without mags is worthless to me.
What a shame. The Gen 3 guns, e.g. TSW's, Shorty 9, .40 and .45's the CQB's etc.. all gone never to be had again for the shields, and plastic M&P wonders.
I have Glocks and M&P's so don't misunderstand me. I think that for their purpose they are good pistols but they are no way in hell ever going to be able to fill the shoes of the long lost Gen 3 and earlier smiths.
just my opinion.

 

[ladder13]

Yes & yes.

The plastic frames are provided by one of S&W's long time vendors. They just have to make the barrels & slides, and assemble the other various parts received from vendors.

They have to make the 3rd gen frames (approx 30 minutes on a CNC machine, per frame) as well as the slides & barrels. They also do some of the final machining & finishing in-house for other parts after they're received from vendors (like the manual safeties, slides stops, etc). Then, the 3rd gen's require some knowledge, experience and time for hand-checking & fitting the sear release levers and extractors.

Which do you think ultimately requires more time & money invested by the company? Which can provide the price point being demanded by the bulk of LE agency & private person buyers in today's market?

Sig has seemingly followed a similar path as the S&W of some years ago by adopting a gun-of-the-month philosophy. You really think they'd still be selling as many guns if all they made were a small number of classic models? Look at the pricing.

Look at the newer plastic models Sig has been working to to get up and running. Don't be surprised if they eventually get the P250 up and running and able to replace their metal-frame lineup for LE/Gov sales at some point.

Look at the effort Beretta has been making in introducing plastic pistols. The online "pistol" section is illustrated with one of their plastic guns. Their compact, subcompact & pocket categories are strongly slanted to newer plastic guns. Their "full-size" is an interesting thing to consider, though, since the pricing for the plastic & metal guns isn't really that far apart. Weird.

Like other folks, I've wondered how much longer they'll continue US production and sales of their 92/96/M9/90-TWO guns if the US military decides to shift procurement. It's not exactly common to see a lot of new Beretta metal guns in cop holsters, although you used to be able to see existing agency customers going from 9 to .40 at one time.

I've asked here before when this subject has come up, and I'll ask it again. How many of us are going to rush out to their local gunstore and put deposits on orders for new TSW's which will probably cost upwards of $1,000 - $1,200 per copy? I'd barely be willing to pay that for a PC or an 1911E series. (To be fair, though, in my case that's because of too many years of being spoiled by being able to buy discounted guns as an armorer. )

Even if we were, it's not like it would be even a moderately profitable enterprise for the company. Not when they're using their production capability at their Houlton plant to make all the 1911's, .22's, PPK's and handcuffs they can churn out.

Each new 3rd gen they'd make would take a CNC machine away from making another model which has already proven that it can sell for a profitable price point.

I keep hearing that S&W would really like to see the 3rd gen's go away, even for LE sales for existing agency customers, within the next 10-15 years. The current market simply supports (and demands) the other metal-framed guns they're making at that plant.

Now, if one of the major distributors were to pony up the money for a special run of 20-25K new TSW's? Sure, they could get them, and probably for a decent discount (compared to only ordering a thousand guns). Might take some time, though. Then, they have to be able to sell them for enough to make a good profit on their investment ... as they aren't exactly operating a charity organization, right?

When I was seeing special Demo pricing on TSW's used for T&E for $600-$700/each I thought that was a lot ... and it was more than it used to be ... but it was actually pretty decent compared to how high the prices had been climbing for MSRP and actual sales toward the end of the commercial production.

I do think it's somewhat sad to see S&W being foreced into the position of watching Sig being the one to carry the flag that S&W essentially started in this country, meaning meal-framed TDA guns, and then the SRT (which we were told in a Sig armorer class had been designed to try and help them compete against a S&W LE bid).

But, the market forces are something that are going to continue to have the strongest influence in gun sales.

Plastic frames have strongly been replacing metal-frames in consumer demand ... kind of like how semiauto pistols replaced revolvers in the same market.

More's the pity, though.

Just my thoughts, muddled as they may be.

Pretty much sums it up, I'd say. Especially the who's going to pay the price part.

 

[ladder13]

Sadly i believe they are gone. If you don't believe me consider this. Just this week my local shop received an absolutely mint performance center "Shorty Nine" It was one of the 2 tones with the black slide and stainless aluminum frame. This was the PC version of the vaunted and excellent 6906. It came with the 2 brand new 12 round magazines that were standard with the 6906. Because i live in CT and Sandy Hook caused all of the politicians to legislate behavior and proper parenting in the form of the magazine ban, I could not take the mags and immediately began trying to find ten rounders. i started by calling Smith and was told by chuck at customer service "no ten round mags are in stock and that Smith was not going to make them anymore as they are trying to phase out all of the gen 3 guns, and the demand for their parts and accessories."
THESE WERE HIS EXACT WORDS.
I searched for an hour and after all i could find WERE 2 ten round mags on EBAY for $125 each, i concluded i had to pass on the shorty nine purchase as i am a shooter and a pistol without mags is worthless to me.
What a shame. The Gen 3 guns, e.g. TSW's, Shorty 9, .40 and .45's the CQB's etc.. all gone never to be had again for the shields, and plastic M&P wonders.
I have Glocks and M&P's so don't misunderstand me. I think that for their purpose they are good pistols but they are no way in hell ever going to be able to fill the shoes of the long lost Gen 3 and earlier smiths.
just my opinion.

I just bought some 10 rd 69 series mags a couple weeks ago. They're still listed on the factory website
Product: 69 Series Stainless Steel Magazine-10 Rd

 

[cometpx4]

Gen 3

Ladder i saw that too which is why i called Smith to immediately order some. In fact, i usually do it on line but noticed that when you go to order on line they don't indicate whether they are "in stock". Thats why i called so i could get "in stock confirmation" and then i was going to go grab the shorty 9.

Instead, what i got was as i described. frankly, the rep made no sense to me and sounded like he was trying to just get me off the phone, which is a very Atypical experience for me when contacting Smith. I have had nothing but great service and product support for 20 years from them.

Trust me when i tell you if i could get 4 or 5 10 round mags for a 69 series i would run, not walk, down and immediately buy that shorty 9.