Were polymer frames the death of the 3rd Gen?

[Llando88]

As a new shooter, likely to purchase a plastic pistol as my first firearm, I just wanted to say I learned more in 10 minutes reading the above posts than the past 3 months online.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this subject.

Rich

 

[ladder13]

Ladder i saw that too which is why i called Smith to immediately order some. In fact, i usually do it on line but noticed that when you go to order on line they don't indicate whether they are "in stock". Thats why i called so i could get "in stock confirmation" and then i was going to go grab the shorty 9.

Instead, what i got was as i described. frankly, the rep made no sense to me and sounded like he was trying to just get me off the phone, which is a very Atypical experience for me when contacting Smith. I have had nothing but great service and product support for 20 years from them.

Trust me when i tell you if i could get 4 or 5 10 round mags for a 69 series i would run, not walk, down and immediately buy that shorty 9.

I ordered some other mags back in Jan just after NY passed the SAFE law, and it took me about 6 weeks to get them from Smith. The gun is much harder to find, especially in that condition, so I would buy the gun and get the mags later. You can even find them here in the classifieds.

 

[Silversmok3]

I hate to say it,but pretty soon metal semi autos will be considered a niche product like a .44 Magnum revolver.

Take a look at the meat and potatoes section of your local gun store.Not much metal there,right?

As to Sig and Beretta,if another forum is to be trusted,the Italian home office deliberately stopped production on the Vertec and Elite 92s in favor of shifting production capacity to the polymer PX4. Were it not for Uncle Sams contract with Beretta and Sigs contracts with their various Federal agencies like the USSS,USCG and AF OSI among others ,those guns.would have long since followed the 3rd Gen into the -discontinued- list.

 

[J. W.]

Can't say I disagree with the posts here. Just like video killed the radio star, polymer killed the steel frame auto. Like Bob Dylan said, times they are a changin'...

Other than the WVSP I honestly don't know of a single agency in WV issuing metal frame pistols. There might be a few sheriff's departments still holding into their Sig's but if there is, they're getting fewer every year.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Interesting, but MTV almost has no videos anymore: while Internet radio is hot, and vinyl records are making somewhat of a comeback!

Still a niche, but nonetheless some people appreciate quality and will pay for it.

 

[ladder13]

I hate to say it,but pretty soon metal semi autos will be considered a niche product like a .44 Magnum revolver.

Take a look at the meat and potatoes section of your local gun store.Not much metal there,right?

As to Sig and Beretta,if another forum is to be trusted,the Italian home office deliberately stopped production on the Vertec and Elite 92s in favor of shifting production capacity to the polymer PX4. Were it not for Uncle Sams contract with Beretta and Sigs contracts with their various Federal agencies like the USSS,USCG and AF OSI among others ,those guns.would have long since followed the 3rd Gen into the -discontinued- list.

S&W's line of 1911's seems to be doing very well, so they're still making metal semi's. Waiting times are up to a year or more for some of their offerings. I love my Smith 1911. Flawless with 1,000 rds thru it.

 

[losingle]

Someone sure likes those old metal guns, the Performance Center currently has a 7 month backlog for refinishing, 35 year vet for S&W sez hes never seen so many 3rd gens in for rehab. New life for old pistols. Mine are in my will, guess you can melt plastic.

 

[finesse_r]

There were a lot of S&W Third Generation pistols made before the recent close of most production lines. Those guns were made to last and they have lasted.

There is still a decreasing supply of Third Generation pistols that are available in the used market. The Third Generation pistols are alive and well in the hands of those people smart enough to buy them when they become avaialable and smart enough to pay 400 to 700 for them even though they can get a new plastic fantastic for less.

What is no longer available much is the very cheap third generation pistols that were available a few years back when all the law enforcement agencies were dumping them into the market. Most law enforcement agencies have either gone to the plastic fantastic or they are keeping their all metal guns.

Unfortunately many of the high demand TSW models are being bought up by savvy buyers pretty quickly when they appear for sale on the market. That means these TSW models in particular will become more difficult to find and more expensive to buy. Unfortunately I sold several of mine to finance my lust for pre-lock S&W and Ruger revolvers. Had I more robust finances I would have just kept them and also bought the revolvers also. LOL

 

[Badkarma 1]

Dale,you and I are NOT representatitve of the typical police officer and gun owner.

While we would love to say that every person who walks onto a LE qualifying range is a gun person,that's simply not the case.Many police department brass-like the NYPD- are more concerned about liability suits from dead suspects' relatives then their officers making it home at night.If the department in question barely trains their officers due to money or politics, I know which gun they'll do better with-and it won't be the old girl,I'm pained to say.Qualification scores among uninterested officers improve with striker fired weapons for a reason-they don't take as many rounds to learn.

Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need for a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no problem if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey) in the "classic line".

Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?

And just to add, I do know there are those cops who look at their sidearm as more than just a tool, referred too as "life saving equipment" they master it on their own nickel, and/or the department might be wise enough to let them choose a piece from an approved list or carry their own as long as they can qualify with it.
I for one am wholly in favor of letting those who go in harms way choose their own weapon, it gives them more confidence and the ability to put rounds on target!
I wonder how many cops would go back to their previous service weapon if given the chance? Dale

 

[Silversmok3]

Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need fir a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no e if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey) in the "classic line".

Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?
Dale

The gun nut in me says S&W should release a 4506/4566 limited run.

The Business major in me says there ain't even close to enough demand to bother.Why tie up the lines when there's a backlog as it is on SW1911s?

We have to think in terms of the business case-who outside this forum would buy a reissued 3rd Gen? Sig fans? Doubt that.Glock fans?I don't think so.See any tactical instructors like Chris Costa posing with a 1006? I don't either. So the mainstream is out,unless the entire gun profession abandons it's 20+year love affair with Glock.

That leaves people who want a traditional .45 -and they'll be at the 1911 counter,and we thus circle back to the SW1911

There may be a place for the 4006s,except now Smith's competing with their own M&P.Same problem with the 9mm 5906.

IMO,money talks and BS walks.If we can band together and pre-purchase a run of 5906s for forum members,perhaps the home office will consider the issue.If we can't even unite together as Smith collectors to buy a pre-purchased lot of handguns,why should the company lift a finger for general production?

 

[BrianXIX]

Aye lad WE aren't the status quo that you speak of, nor unfortunately do most of them even see the need fir a sidearm since it brings about hours of paperwork if its pulled.
BUT it would be no e if Smith would at least humor us old farts with the 3913, 5906,(or 03) and 4506-2 (yes I'm dreaming, but hey) in the "classic line".

Here's an idea, have the Houlton plant kick loose say a 1,000 overrun 4566 and see how fast they get snapped up. If they go fast put at least one 3rd Gen back in the line up. What say you?
Dale

I'd buy 3. S&W really should make a 3rd gen pistol again.

 

[adwjc]

Was it the popularity of the plastic gun?

Bourne, from my perspective in a medium sized urban PD, the interest in the polymer pistol was strictly based on the striker fired action and simplicity of training.

My department requires officers to supply their own firearms & equipment ( they get a maintenance allowance. Therefore cost was not an issue. We did get a "deal" from the local distributer (he wanted the trade-ins from the guys carrying 669s, 6904s, 6906s which were the then current authorized pistols).

To the end user the cost difference was negligible.

 

[Outrider]

Missing the point...

Most of these posts -- good and accurate as many are -- have missed a key point.

Just because Smith isn't currently making 3rd Gen guns HARDLY means 3rd Gens are DEAD...

These guns will very likely endure in substantial quantities -- in ever increasing demand -- for generations to come.

They're also a very durable product -- with an extremely, extremely long lifespan.

That HARDLY constitutes DEAD.

Not in current production...True.

Dead? No...

(I prefer to think of it as being on..."sabbatical"...)

Remember that Smith once SWORE they'd never make 1911s...Look at their lineup now...

Also, they killed the Centennial series. Demand brought it back -- and not only that, but in a dramatically product-improved version.

With as much pent-up demand as there is, Smith would be foolish beyond all measure not to do special limited runs on 3rd Gens -- regularly...

Plus, Smith, to honor their lifetime product pledge, will have to keep product support and parts in play.

We just need to remind them -- give them links like this -- and keep poking them, gently, with a very sharp stick. They need to keep before them the realization that we want to buy more -- and we PREFER quality guns every bit as good as a 1911 that are in current production...

(And there are more of us converts daily...)

 

[Outrider]

Just an unpleasant side thought...

The original poster used the term "killed" for what polymer guns did to 3rd Gens -- clearly referring to Glock...

Let your mind drift back to 1994 -- and the so-called Assault Weapons ban. Remember 10-round Glocks -- and how utterly unappealing those were?

Clearly, that limit on magazine capacity "killed" much of the Glock "advantage"...However much one might argue for Glocks, for a mere 10 rounds, putting up with that weird shaped grip -- which seems to fit no one except perhaps a long-fingered NBA star -- took much of their luster away.

The ban also helped broaden and deepen the appreciation for 3rd Gen guns. It was then and there I became a confirmed 3rd Gen fan.

Lest we forget, apart from constant vigilence, we're one Democratic Congress and president away from having a more severe ban than we had before.

That could mean no more Glocks with the "swoosh" of a pen.

As sad as it is to say, what one name do you hear from the media -- in mass shootings behind "AR-15" and "assault" weapon?

Often, it's "Glock" -- and "high capacity magazines."

Like it or not, legislative fiat could be what eventually "kills" the polymer gun.

And, like it or not, the Pierce Morgans and Dianne Feinsteins won't be satisfied until they confiscate every last gun in this country.

 

[Lost Lake]

If Sig can make steel guns and turn a profit so can S&W.

S&W has a couple of real winners in their line-up. The 3913 and TSW version of it are truly classic guns, and they fit the modern desire for small and compact dependable carry guns. Same with the 4513 and TSW version.

They don't have to come back and make all the third gens. The 5906 is a great gun, but it's too big for concealed carry, and not a target gun either. Let the 1911 fill that role. 6906? No need.

As for taking up machine time, so what? put your trained gunsmiths on a revitalized TSW line and hire some new kids to slap together plastic guns. Sell the TSW's for Sig type prices. I'd buy a 3193TSW for $800, and they may not have to cost that much even.

Bringing back some real winners will boost S&W's reputation, put some great gunsmiths back to work doing what they love, and put a healthy dent in Sig and Beretta sales....

.

 

[Outrider]

4506s and 1006s!!!!!

My vote goes along obvious lines: Smith needs to bring back their 4506-series and the 1006-series.

To me, these are far and away the best semi-autos they've ever made -- with no nod to the 1911.

 

[Outrider]

3rd Gens are FULLY up to date...

Earlier, a poster contended that 3rd Gens are a dated design...

Pardon me in differing...

Of course, you could try -- unsuccessfully -- to make the same argument with 1911s -- a 102-year-old gun.

But the 1006-series and 4506-series are EVERY bit as good and effective as the 1911.

 

[Badkarma 1]

The gun nut in me says S&W should release a 4506/4566 limited run.

The Business major in me says there ain't even close to enough demand to bother.Why tie up the lines when there's a backlog as it is on SW1911s?

We have to think in terms of the business case-who outside this forum would buy a reissued 3rd Gen? Sig fans? Doubt that.Glock fans?I don't think so.See any tactical instructors like Chris Costa posing with a 1006? I don't either. So the mainstream is out,unless the entire gun profession abandons it's 20+year love affair with Glock.

That leaves people who want a traditional .45 -and they'll be at the 1911 counter,and we thus circle back to the SW1911

There may be a place for the 4006s,except now Smith's competing with their own M&P.Same problem with the 9mm 5906.

IMO,money talks and BS walks.If we can band together and pre-purchase a run of 5906s for forum members,perhaps the home office will consider the issue.If we can't even unite together as Smith collectors to buy a pre-purchased lot of handguns,why should the company lift a finger for general production?

More importantly you forgot to mention that the one pistol that's on every news cast, and on every TV gun show is the Glock. Plus the amount of hype that surrounds it!
Plenty of examples of its toughness and ability to take abuse are on youtube. Matter of fact Smiths own M&P runs a poor second to the Glock according to the sages in magazines and on TV...kinda funny huh?
Also I've noticed in these very threads how various members who already own an M&P or Glock buy an old 3rd Gen on either a whim or by reading how we wax about them, then go out and shoot it and are FLABBERGASTED by its accuracy, reliability, and less recoil! Granted not every 3rd Gen is "match grade" accurate or worse, but then consider the age and wear on them.
So while it may not make good business sense or be touted by a "tactical trainer" there is a demand out there, albeit a small yet VOCAL one! And somebody is sure buying them via the gun web sites!
Dale

 

[ladder13]

IMO,money talks and BS walks.If we can band together and pre-purchase a run of 5906s for forum members,perhaps the home office will consider the issue.If we can't even unite together as Smith collectors to buy a pre-purchased lot of handguns,why should the company lift a finger for general production?

That was tried here a few years ago, and if I remember correctly they couldn't even get 50(not even close to that) people to commit. I forget the gun that they were trying to purchase but it was around $500 not the $1000-1200 mentioned by fastbolt.
Now, if someone starts a collection to produce some Pre War 4 inch N frame revolvers, I'm good for 5 or 10.

 

[Silversmok3]

Earlier, a poster contended that 3rd Gens are a dated design...

Pardon me in differing...

Of course, you could try -- unsuccessfully -- to make the same argument with 1911s -- a 102-year-old gun.

But the 1006-series and 4506-series are EVERY bit as good and effective as the 1911.

I'd have to disagree.

The 1911 is much easier to manage for the novice then the 4506 or 4566.The S&W pistols also weren't the duty sidearm of the US Military for over 100 years.

Understand, functionally the 3rd Gens are not obsolete.That being said,Smith and Wesson is a business.Their job is to make money selling guns,not necessarily to make the best pistols they possibly can produce.Those two goals are NOT the same.