WHAT BREAK IN PERIOD ??!!
- Thread starter chief38
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A couple of years ago, my brother found out that I had been shooting and collecting 1911 pattern pistols. Actually I had been at for a while but kept it on the down low. Once he found out he proceeded to do something I never would have expected. He went straight to one of our local gun stores, asked for the best 1911 pistol in the store because he wanted to give one to his brother. The clerk at the store promptly placed a Kimber CDP on the counter. "I'll take it!" declared my brother, and with out questioning the price purchase it and presented it to me as a gift.
With out going into the details, the gesture represented reciprocity for an act that only brothers could know and understand. I was humbled.
Since we hunt together on the same deer lease, he anxiously followed progress of the pistol. 50, 75, 100, 200, rounds. Every magazine had a FTF. I called Kimber. What was wrong? The gun is "tight", keep shooting it they instructed. Still, FTF every magazine. Bought extra Kimber magazines. 250, 300, 350, 400, 500 rounds. Same result. Called Kimber several times. Keep shooting the told me. I wanted to send it back. "All we will do is put it in a mechanical cycler" what ever that is, so "keep shooting". 500,750, 1000 rounds. Your "limp wristing" they told me........"limp wristing". Finally, as I approached the 2000 round mark one day at the lease my brother just looked at me as if to say, enough. I was giving it all I had, tried everything. Cleaned meticulously. Considering the circumstances I did not want to quit. But He knew as I did that basically, despite his intentions, what he had given me was a piece of junk. We talked about it. What would we do with it? We could trade it off or sell it. But then it would be someone else's problem or worse, someone would actually believe they could trust their life with it. We both agreed, it would be put away and that is where it remains today.
My brother had the best of intentions. I have never, and will never forgive Kimber.
With out going into the details, the gesture represented reciprocity for an act that only brothers could know and understand. I was humbled.
Since we hunt together on the same deer lease, he anxiously followed progress of the pistol. 50, 75, 100, 200, rounds. Every magazine had a FTF. I called Kimber. What was wrong? The gun is "tight", keep shooting it they instructed. Still, FTF every magazine. Bought extra Kimber magazines. 250, 300, 350, 400, 500 rounds. Same result. Called Kimber several times. Keep shooting the told me. I wanted to send it back. "All we will do is put it in a mechanical cycler" what ever that is, so "keep shooting". 500,750, 1000 rounds. Your "limp wristing" they told me........"limp wristing". Finally, as I approached the 2000 round mark one day at the lease my brother just looked at me as if to say, enough. I was giving it all I had, tried everything. Cleaned meticulously. Considering the circumstances I did not want to quit. But He knew as I did that basically, despite his intentions, what he had given me was a piece of junk. We talked about it. What would we do with it? We could trade it off or sell it. But then it would be someone else's problem or worse, someone would actually believe they could trust their life with it. We both agreed, it would be put away and that is where it remains today.
My brother had the best of intentions. I have never, and will never forgive Kimber.
OP
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FOX84:
Man, sorry to hear that! Just out of curiosity did you ever send the gun back to Kimber? It would be interesting to see what they had to say about all this.
I do not own a Kimber (I am a S&W AND COLT man) but I will admit seeing more than just one or two Kimbers have FTF problems. Yet when you go onto forums like this, there are always a lot of people who swear by them, so it's hard to figure out.
I own two .45's, one is a Colt Gold Cup and the other a Colt Series 80 Gov't. model and they have never missed a beat (even with re-laods). Not to say that Colt has never put out a "stinker", but most of the fellas who shoot competitively in my Gun Club either us either a Colt GC or a Les Baer and they seem to work very well.
I would call Kimber and tell them all the problems you have been having, and request that they take the gun and either repair it to your satisfaction, replace it or refund your Brothers hard earned money. I know Kimbers are not cheap!
I know you must be stewing, so I would not let this just become a paperweight in your safe.
Good luck with this, and please let us know how you make out.
Regards,
Chief38
Man, sorry to hear that! Just out of curiosity did you ever send the gun back to Kimber? It would be interesting to see what they had to say about all this.
I do not own a Kimber (I am a S&W AND COLT man) but I will admit seeing more than just one or two Kimbers have FTF problems. Yet when you go onto forums like this, there are always a lot of people who swear by them, so it's hard to figure out.
I own two .45's, one is a Colt Gold Cup and the other a Colt Series 80 Gov't. model and they have never missed a beat (even with re-laods). Not to say that Colt has never put out a "stinker", but most of the fellas who shoot competitively in my Gun Club either us either a Colt GC or a Les Baer and they seem to work very well.
I would call Kimber and tell them all the problems you have been having, and request that they take the gun and either repair it to your satisfaction, replace it or refund your Brothers hard earned money. I know Kimbers are not cheap!
I know you must be stewing, so I would not let this just become a paperweight in your safe.
Good luck with this, and please let us know how you make out.
Regards,
Chief38
I HAD 3 Kimbers ( all at the same time) and because of a recent physical accident I had to sell 2 of them but kept the 3rd out of sentiment for 1911's.
All were 5" models...Target II's with a single Gold target model and all were the despised external extractor models. In 7 years I had ONE bad go round with them caused by a squib load I had stuck together (primer..no powder...geeze) and other than that they never balked at 230 HB or even the lead wadcutters when loaded properly and taper crimped.
All were 5" models...Target II's with a single Gold target model and all were the despised external extractor models. In 7 years I had ONE bad go round with them caused by a squib load I had stuck together (primer..no powder...geeze) and other than that they never balked at 230 HB or even the lead wadcutters when loaded properly and taper crimped.
Chief: I think that the majority ( or dammed near all) of the Kimbers you see that "develop" FTF..etc...are the short models ( NON 5" barrel models) and it will take areal snake oil salesman to convince ME it isnt cause by some amount of breaking the wrist. I have small hands but even with mine its difficult to get a REAL GRIP on some them....let alone a man with large hands.
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Sully:
You are absolutely correct! Not "damn near", but ALL of the Kimber's I have seen with FTF problems have been the shorter barrel "carry guns". Like I said, most of the people on this and other Forums have nothing bad to say about the Kimber Pistol line, but now that the small carry .45's are all the rage, I see more and more people coming down to the Range with them and having problems. The most recent one I saw (sorry I am not Kimber savvy with the models) was a 3" or 3 1/2" barrel and was green and Camo with Crimson Trace Laser Grips and a Trijicon 3 dot iron sight.
Wouldn't you think that the "carry" models would actually shipped as MORE reliable than the target models??? Were it my name on the slide I would make sure that a carry gun worked out of the box, not after hundreds of rounds. My personal feeling on "break-in periods" is that the Factory should do the breaking-in, and the gun should work reliably right out of the box, (especially for 1,300.00 + bucks).
Oh, just wanted to add one thing in response to the possible "limp wristing" issue you raised. I fired my friends Kimber personally because I thought he might have been guilty of doing just that, but the gun had a few FTF when I fired it as well, and I certainly was NOT limp wristing it. The ammo being used was 230 gr. Factory Hardball, so the ammo was certainly not the cause either.
Regards,
Chief38
You are absolutely correct! Not "damn near", but ALL of the Kimber's I have seen with FTF problems have been the shorter barrel "carry guns". Like I said, most of the people on this and other Forums have nothing bad to say about the Kimber Pistol line, but now that the small carry .45's are all the rage, I see more and more people coming down to the Range with them and having problems. The most recent one I saw (sorry I am not Kimber savvy with the models) was a 3" or 3 1/2" barrel and was green and Camo with Crimson Trace Laser Grips and a Trijicon 3 dot iron sight.
Wouldn't you think that the "carry" models would actually shipped as MORE reliable than the target models??? Were it my name on the slide I would make sure that a carry gun worked out of the box, not after hundreds of rounds. My personal feeling on "break-in periods" is that the Factory should do the breaking-in, and the gun should work reliably right out of the box, (especially for 1,300.00 + bucks).
Oh, just wanted to add one thing in response to the possible "limp wristing" issue you raised. I fired my friends Kimber personally because I thought he might have been guilty of doing just that, but the gun had a few FTF when I fired it as well, and I certainly was NOT limp wristing it. The ammo being used was 230 gr. Factory Hardball, so the ammo was certainly not the cause either.
Regards,
Chief38
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Sully that is a very astute observation concerning carry/compact versions of Kimbers 1911. The model given to me by my Bro was a CDP II Compact. This model had the 4" barrel with-out a barrel bushing. Would not have been aware of like issues amongst these and similar models since I have never shot on a public range with the exception of my CCW qualifier.
I simply shared the experience since I happen to agree with Chief and some of the others that these weapons should leave the plant good to go. A "settling in" I can understand but not a "break in" for proper function? Even so things happen and everyone deserves an opportunity to make things "right". This happened not to be my experience with the people behind the brand/product.
Anyway this is long behind us now. The one positive that came out of it was that I got to be pretty darn good at clearing those malfunctions but they occurred so regularly that the effect was lost as a training tool. This along with the fact that I got tired of getting smacked in the forehead with hot brass, but that is another story.
This afternoon #2 son and I headed to the range to shoot our new to us Model 13 and 19 revolvers. (Which is how I ended up on this forum) We also, as always, took out my "working guns". A Springfield Mil Spec, Lightweight Officers, and Compact Officers. All have been worked over by Briley. The Officers Models have Clark bushings and reverse plugs. The Springfield and LW Officers are my primary carry guns and use the Compact to practice with, being all steel it can handle the higher round count. I do recall a couple of stove pipes on the Springfield but that was long before the Briley work. The Officers models never gave me any trouble, but problems with the barrel bushing and plug are well documented so they were changed out.
We put 250 rounds though them today, WWB 230 JHP, American Eagle 230 HB, UMC 230 HB, and Winchester Ranger +P STX. As always, they run like the proverbial sewing machine.
The officers will buck pretty good with those +P's but with proper follow though they stay on target.
Although I have a some Model 70's and 38 Supers that are never fired and will someday be passed on, I have never felt the need to have more than those three pistols.
We sure are having fun with our new revolvers though.
I simply shared the experience since I happen to agree with Chief and some of the others that these weapons should leave the plant good to go. A "settling in" I can understand but not a "break in" for proper function? Even so things happen and everyone deserves an opportunity to make things "right". This happened not to be my experience with the people behind the brand/product.
Anyway this is long behind us now. The one positive that came out of it was that I got to be pretty darn good at clearing those malfunctions but they occurred so regularly that the effect was lost as a training tool. This along with the fact that I got tired of getting smacked in the forehead with hot brass, but that is another story.
This afternoon #2 son and I headed to the range to shoot our new to us Model 13 and 19 revolvers. (Which is how I ended up on this forum) We also, as always, took out my "working guns". A Springfield Mil Spec, Lightweight Officers, and Compact Officers. All have been worked over by Briley. The Officers Models have Clark bushings and reverse plugs. The Springfield and LW Officers are my primary carry guns and use the Compact to practice with, being all steel it can handle the higher round count. I do recall a couple of stove pipes on the Springfield but that was long before the Briley work. The Officers models never gave me any trouble, but problems with the barrel bushing and plug are well documented so they were changed out.
We put 250 rounds though them today, WWB 230 JHP, American Eagle 230 HB, UMC 230 HB, and Winchester Ranger +P STX. As always, they run like the proverbial sewing machine.
The officers will buck pretty good with those +P's but with proper follow though they stay on target.
Although I have a some Model 70's and 38 Supers that are never fired and will someday be passed on, I have never felt the need to have more than those three pistols.
We sure are having fun with our new revolvers though.
Attachments
Well... just to take the "Other" side.. every Kimber instruction book will tell you up front.. about the " Break In".. not that difficult to follow.. Clean before using.. ( seems that you would do that anyway ).. fire 100/150 rounds clean and repeat.. at least 4 more times.. using FMJ 230gr. ammo..
I'm gonna go with the fact they built it and they would know what the procedure is..
OK .. I'm a little biased.. I carry a KIMBER Ultra CDP II every day.. It went back to the factory one time because I sent it back to have the slide Kim-Pro'd to match the frame..
I am NOT a great shot by any means.. but in my opinion the little 3" barrel will do just fine for personal defense..
( And YES the the hole in the "S" bottom right was intentional
)
7 Yards.. Kimber Ultra CDP II.. PMC 230 gr. FMJ
I'm gonna go with the fact they built it and they would know what the procedure is..
OK .. I'm a little biased.. I carry a KIMBER Ultra CDP II every day.. It went back to the factory one time because I sent it back to have the slide Kim-Pro'd to match the frame..
I am NOT a great shot by any means.. but in my opinion the little 3" barrel will do just fine for personal defense..
( And YES the the hole in the "S" bottom right was intentional
)7 Yards.. Kimber Ultra CDP II.. PMC 230 gr. FMJ
MDLNB
Member
Hey, you could always purchase a sigma. Mine has never failed to fire and I use the cheapest, dirtiest ammo out there. Of course, it is NOT a competition pistol like your high dollar ones, but at least it fires.
Maximumbob54
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I thought the whole issue with a “Break In” period in any gun was to smooth out the leftover machining marks. Triggers smooth out, barrel grooves or threads loose the sharp edges, slide rails glide together, and any other moving parts wear together. That is why you get rid of the grease they were shipped in and change over to an oil that you can keep cleaning up after shooting. It’s the same reason cars don’t get their optimal gas mileage right from the factory. The parts have to wear together and once the engine is in essence self polished it will run a little easier. The old rule of thumb for new vehicle used to be not to go faster than 50 or 60, drive longer than thirty minutes, and to change the oil two or three times in the first month. The first oil change I would see metal in the oil. But then again, I can’t believe the number of people I have known that don’t know to wipe out the barrel grease before firing a brand new gun. Shotguns used to be caked with the stuff inside the barrel. I have heard it as the barrel punch when new. But if you don’t know, you just don’t know.
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FOLLOW UP TO ORIGINAL POST
Good afternoon Guy's and Gal's,
Since I started this post I feel compelled to tell you something refreshing that happened just last evening!
The night that I was at the Range (1/21/11) when my friend had his FTF problems with his Kimber and Rock River .45's, inspired me to post the original thread. I was also there with a second friend that night who was interested in purchasing one of those small Kimber carry .45 Auto's but after seeing the dismal performance that night decided not to. Well, last night we were going down to the Range, and I got a call to bring some .45 acp ammo with me, but my buddy did not tell me why, but I did as he had requested.
We usually shoot Colt Gold Cups and S&W 38 Specials down at the indoor Range, so I grabbed a few boxes of lightly loaded (4.3 grains of W231 under a 230 grain cast RNL bullet) and set off to the Range. When I got there, my Buddy pulled out a NIB Colt Defender .45 Auto which is pretty much a copy of the Kimber carry pistol. After he showed it around, I said to him judging from the dismal performance of the Kimber pistol and coupled with the fact that I brought you very lightly loaded lead bullets that were intended for a Gold Cup with a 12 pound spring, I think you are going to have a lot of operating problems, jams, and failures to feed. He said, I was probably right, but we're here, so let me shoot it and let's see what happens.
He loads up The Defender, and I couldn't believe my eyes........... The gun functioned 100% perfectly with all 100 bullets, and there were no hick-ups what so ever! I could not even believe that the gun cycled with the lightly loaded "Gold Cup re-loads", and to top it off, this little sucker printed 2" groups at 50 feet after we adjusted the rear sight for windage. UNVELIEVABLE...... the $800 Colt blew away the $1300 Kimber. The only thing that the Colt did not have (other than all the problems) was the Laser Grip which to me is not necessary on an up close and personal gun anyway (but of course can always be added).
I am a dyed in the wool S&W man, as far as a self defense gun is concerned, and I will always carry a S&W revolver for that purpose, but if tomorrow I was told that I HAD TO carry an Auto Loader, I would get one of those little Colt's in a heart beat! I applaud Colt for turning out a fine gun THAT WORKS CORRECTLY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX without having to "break it in with hundreds of rounds!!
I was very pleased to see that once in a while something actually works as it was meant to without a bunch of excuses........VERY REFRESHING to say the least!
Regards,
Chief38
Good afternoon Guy's and Gal's,
Since I started this post I feel compelled to tell you something refreshing that happened just last evening!
The night that I was at the Range (1/21/11) when my friend had his FTF problems with his Kimber and Rock River .45's, inspired me to post the original thread. I was also there with a second friend that night who was interested in purchasing one of those small Kimber carry .45 Auto's but after seeing the dismal performance that night decided not to. Well, last night we were going down to the Range, and I got a call to bring some .45 acp ammo with me, but my buddy did not tell me why, but I did as he had requested.
We usually shoot Colt Gold Cups and S&W 38 Specials down at the indoor Range, so I grabbed a few boxes of lightly loaded (4.3 grains of W231 under a 230 grain cast RNL bullet) and set off to the Range. When I got there, my Buddy pulled out a NIB Colt Defender .45 Auto which is pretty much a copy of the Kimber carry pistol. After he showed it around, I said to him judging from the dismal performance of the Kimber pistol and coupled with the fact that I brought you very lightly loaded lead bullets that were intended for a Gold Cup with a 12 pound spring, I think you are going to have a lot of operating problems, jams, and failures to feed. He said, I was probably right, but we're here, so let me shoot it and let's see what happens.
He loads up The Defender, and I couldn't believe my eyes........... The gun functioned 100% perfectly with all 100 bullets, and there were no hick-ups what so ever! I could not even believe that the gun cycled with the lightly loaded "Gold Cup re-loads", and to top it off, this little sucker printed 2" groups at 50 feet after we adjusted the rear sight for windage. UNVELIEVABLE...... the $800 Colt blew away the $1300 Kimber. The only thing that the Colt did not have (other than all the problems) was the Laser Grip which to me is not necessary on an up close and personal gun anyway (but of course can always be added).
I am a dyed in the wool S&W man, as far as a self defense gun is concerned, and I will always carry a S&W revolver for that purpose, but if tomorrow I was told that I HAD TO carry an Auto Loader, I would get one of those little Colt's in a heart beat! I applaud Colt for turning out a fine gun THAT WORKS CORRECTLY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX without having to "break it in with hundreds of rounds!!
I was very pleased to see that once in a while something actually works as it was meant to without a bunch of excuses........VERY REFRESHING to say the least!
Regards,
Chief38
500 Magnum Nut
Member
On auto loaders, most problems are magazine problems, yet they will blame the gun.
Pistol or rifle mags have the same simple check. Load 2 cartridges into the magazine. Then press down lightly on the upper cartridge and see if the cartridge snaps up smartly. Sometimes they are dragging on the rear end or front end. If they drag on the front they will nose dive the round and a misfeed will happen. If they drag on the rear the round won't be picked up from the mag.
The repair is simple. One fix is to remove the spring and stretch out the spring on the affected side. This will add more tension to the weak area. Another option is to reach for a pliers and bend/tweak the mag lips to correct the spacing. A third approach is to squeeze the mag in a vise. Squeezing a mag in a vise one way causes the mag to grow on the other sides. This gives the cartridges a little more wiggle room.
These 3 approaches will fix a mag and get them working like they should. Other than ejector or extractor issues, 99% of auto loading problems are magazine problems.
Every once in a while clean the insides of the magazines with a clean towel. I then use CLP and very lightly wipe down the body and springs. Don't over do the CLP because oil attracts dirt. Many don't advise lube at all. I know this too, but I like the smell of CLP.....
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one thing nearly for sure with the taurus...it's good you have the lifetime warranty...because you will surely need it!!
tomcatt51
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This is interesting. A friend of mine bought a little Kimber 1911 style .45 acp 3 1/2"(?) barrel. It does shoot extremely well. It was finicky until it got some (a bunch actually) rds thru it. It did require "break in". So what? They (Kimber) said it required break in. Is it overkill for a carry gun? I'd sure say yes. A looser gun requiring no break in would be just as good but that's what he wanted. Pick your poison. It's a nice gun and he occaisionally shoots PPC "off duty" COF with it. It's nice to hace a gun that will keep shots in the X ring. If you're happy with a looser fitted gun that's fine, if you want a tack driver semi-auto you're going to deal with breaking it in. So what?
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