Have we became different shooters?

[27145]

I would assume you mean the great grandfather story.

I never met the man. He was long dead before I was born. From what I was told, he enjoyed women and booze but was a tough sheriff and not politically correct in any form. Over the years he had fatally shot a few people but was always cleared. One night he was drinking heavily and got into a domestic fight with his wife. He grabbed a shotgun and I was told both that it went off accidentally and that he intended to shoot her. Whatever the case may have been, he ended up shooting her left leg off. She wore a wooden leg for the rest of her life. My mother and grandmother was in the room when it happened. He was relieved of his duty and arrested. At the trial, he was found guilty and got 20 yrs at hard labor. He did around 15 and died shortly after getting out. His son, my grandfather, inherited the love of booze and got into a lot of trouble himself over the years. I knew my grandfather but did not care for him. Due to the effect the booze had on them, my mother died at age 82 without ever having tasted alcoholic beverages.

Thanks for that story. If he was the sheriff, who collared him?

 

[Kanewpadle]

It's not as bad as it seems my freind. There are still many people that value a good gun to pass down.

Like the other thread on geographical locations around the country, it depends on where you live.

Besides, what are you complaining about! If people don't want the "good" guns, that's more for you and me!

Look at the the thread about the Whitney Wolverine.

 

[kscardsfan]

Well, I went for the classics, but I can produce character witness testimony that will state under oath that I was born old. I've never been one to jump headfirst for the "latest and greatest." Let the other guy do the beta testing and get the bugs worked out.

I have several people who tell me that all the time lol. I don't feel that I'm old, but reserved/conservative lol. I don't want to be in the early adopter crowd myself. I like letting the latest and greatest get to be not so late and great before I buy into it. By the time I bought my glock and entered into LE work, the basic design and materials of the glock were already 20 years old. Hardly new and great. But I wanted reliable and practical if I was going to stake my life on it.

 

[aphelion]

All this illustrates why it is a blessing that we grow and die. If we live long enough, the world changes and we don't like what it becomes. And we carp about it and irritate those around us who don't understand what the beef we have is. I believe it has always been that way. The difference these days is that the world changes faster and we live longer, so the effect is magnified. So the world is going to heck in a handbasket. It has been doing that for a very long time.

 

[oldman45]

Thanks for that story. If he was the sheriff, who collared him?

I have no idea. Nobody ever told me that and since it happened back in the late 20's, I was not around to ask.

I know many years ago in Louisiana, the only person that could relieve a Sheriff and remove his badge was the Coroner. Can you guess who appointed the Coroner? While still having more authority than I think they should, several years back, the Coroner's position became an elected office.

 

[JcMack]

I was in a GS I like last Friday. The first case you walk by is packed with 9mm doublestacks, all with 30 rd. mags sticking out them. I asked the owner "who the heck buys this stuff"? The words were hanging in the air as a "kid" about 18 walked in and bought 4 such mags and 3 lasers. There are 5-6 cases of autos, and 2 with revolvers. There were 4 plastic revolvers, Smith, Taurus, Ruger, and Son of Sam company. (the name escapes me) sitting in the case, all around $400. I just don't see the advantage of plastic revolvers. The weight savings of these guns is far "outweighed" by their bulk. I was in the store about an hour and several customers came in, all looking wonder 9's and AK's. Nice 1917 Colt. if I had $800 it would be mine.

 

[oldman45]

I tend to like and collect older firearms, cars and tools.

That said, there is much positive to say about modern guns and other devices.

We have very different expectations and demands of today's cars, computers, telephones, appliances, tools, homes, and such than we did years ago. And, firearms as well.

"New and improved" is not always true. Nor is it always wrong.

Today's modern firearm designs are the same. Some are much improved for their purpose and function. Some changes are... well, not so much.

That is much of what I love about America and progress in general. We can comfortably live in the past or comfortably live in the present. Choice is yours and you don't always have to give up one for the other.

I can appreciate the items you collect. I restore the old convertibles from the 50's and 60's. Lately the prices of the cars have gotten so high that I cannot afford them. Been haggling over the price of a '57Chevy BelAire convertible for a while now. It needs a lot of restoring but is still a daily driver.

Todays cars have changed but is it for the better? You cannot hardly find a family sedan that will pull a travel trailer and hold four people that will be comfortable on a long trip. For such, one needs a pickup truck. That truck gets driven through the week at a reduced mpg than what a car of years ago would have gotten.

Do not get me wrong, there have been a lot of safety improvements in the last few years in the auto industry but the cars of today will not ever become the classics of the pre 80's years. What car of today is so popular that it will sell for over $120K in 60 yrs? One of my cars sold new for $7,200 in 1963 and I sold it for $23K in 1984. Then have you noticed how little metal there is in vehicles today? I have. I have also seen what happens to the "new" cars when they hit the under ride of a semi. Sure the old cars were heavier and got less mpg but they also offered some protection. Today we have seatbelts, daytime running lamps, smog devices and airbags but we also have people dying that may not have if they had been in a car that was more crush worthy. Consumer Reports, the insurance industry and others can do all the crash testing they want but nothing beats real world impacts. I testify about this often in courts. The young guys coming up now has nothing to compare the "new" cars with. I do because I was back there doing the work then just as I am now. I drove the cars, I used the cars and I worked on the cars as well as investigating the crashes with those cars.

New guns? Show me a recently made black gun that sells for more now than when it was new? I can see it now. A man walks into a pawn shop to buy a used Gen 2 Glock and pays $700 for it. Will not happen. Advertise a S&W model 36, model 19, 66, 686 or many of the older guns that is now put down by the younger folks and it will sell for more than it did new. Years ago, we all bought Model 36 snubbies for less than $150 and now I see them going for over $500.

Maybe the new look will be a fad that will pass. But does the young hunters come back years from now? Hunting license sales are down all across the nation. Years ago, those of us old enough to have experienced it, hunters with their kids would be filling the area all night diners before hitting the woods for the day. We had to wait on a table. Everyone would be in camo clothing, many wearing sidearms. People would be talking about prior hunts. The trucks would have long guns on racks in the rear windows. How often to you see this now days?

Can we say this is the good days? Ask anyone in their 60's if this is the good old days? The youth of today does not know what it is like during the good old days. We get more plastic than metal in our cars and guns. Actually we get more plastic in the women of today as well. Nothing is built to last these days. I have called repair men out to fix tv sets, refrigerators and other things. Now if those items fail, there is nobody to repair them and the appliances are called disposable. I bought things to last but the currently built refrigerator is made to last 7 yrs but in 1966, the life expectancy was 20 yrs. We had phones supplied by the phone company and they were well built. Today the consumer has to buy their own phones and they are cheap plastic. Have a rat eat through a phone wire these days will cost you when a repairman comes to fix it. Years ago, there was no charge.

Nope, I do not think things are improved. Might be new but certainly not better.

 

[oldman45]

I have several people who tell me that all the time lol. I don't feel that I'm old, but reserved/conservative lol. I don't want to be in the early adopter crowd myself. I like letting the latest and greatest get to be not so late and great before I buy into it. By the time I bought my glock and entered into LE work, the basic design and materials of the glock were already 20 years old. Hardly new and great. But I wanted reliable and practical if I was going to stake my life on it.

Ok, using your example of the Glock. I think it is now on Gen 4. That is for a gun only 25 yrs old. How many changes have been made to the gans made 50 yrs ago? They are the same unless you consider the government requested internal locks. As far as I know, the 1911 is built to the same specs and design that it was 100 yrs ago. Sure the Glock is reliable and practical but then that is why you buy a gun. If you want real reliability, buy a revolver. Check the grip angle on some of the newer semi autos. Not built for comfort or control. The older metal guns feel far better in our hands.

 

[oldman45]

All this illustrates why it is a blessing that we grow and die. If we live long enough, the world changes and we don't like what it becomes. And we carp about it and irritate those around us who don't understand what the beef we have is. I believe it has always been that way. The difference these days is that the world changes faster and we live longer, so the effect is magnified. So the world is going to heck in a handbasket. It has been doing that for a very long time.

I can agree with this. Sure, there are some things that have improved. Firearms improved and got worse. Our forefathers used muskets and flintlocks. The auto loaders and bolt action rifles of today are much better. Things do change but not always for the best.

Medical science is so far advanced from what it was in even the 60's. Yet the education system is not nearly as good as it was in the 60's.

Yes the world is changing and not always for the best.

 

[jimmyj]

I can appreciate the items you collect. I restore the old convertibles from the 50's and 60's. Lately the prices of the cars have gotten so high that I cannot afford them. Been haggling over the price of a '57Chevy BelAire convertible for a while now. It needs a lot of restoring but is still a daily driver.

Todays cars have changed but is it for the better? You cannot hardly find a family sedan that will pull a travel trailer and hold four people that will be comfortable on a long trip. For such, one needs a pickup truck. That truck gets driven through the week at a reduced mpg than what a car of years ago would have gotten.

Do not get me wrong, there have been a lot of safety improvements in the last few years in the auto industry but the cars of today will not ever become the classics of the pre 80's years. What car of today is so popular that it will sell for over $120K in 60 yrs? One of my cars sold new for $7,200 in 1963 and I sold it for $23K in 1984. Then have you noticed how little metal there is in vehicles today? I have. I have also seen what happens to the "new" cars when they hit the under ride of a semi. Sure the old cars were heavier and got less mpg but they also offered some protection. Today we have seatbelts, daytime running lamps, smog devices and airbags but we also have people dying that may not have if they had been in a car that was more crush worthy. Consumer Reports, the insurance industry and others can do all the crash testing they want but nothing beats real world impacts. I testify about this often in courts. The young guys coming up now has nothing to compare the "new" cars with. I do because I was back there doing the work then just as I am now. I drove the cars, I used the cars and I worked on the cars as well as investigating the crashes with those cars.

New guns? Show me a recently made black gun that sells for more now than when it was new? I can see it now. A man walks into a pawn shop to buy a used Gen 2 Glock and pays $700 for it. Will not happen. Advertise a S&W model 36, model 19, 66, 686 or many of the older guns that is now put down by the younger folks and it will sell for more than it did new. Years ago, we all bought Model 36 snubbies for less than $150 and now I see them going for over $500.

Maybe the new look will be a fad that will pass. But does the young hunters come back years from now? Hunting license sales are down all across the nation. Years ago, those of us old enough to have experienced it, hunters with their kids would be filling the area all night diners before hitting the woods for the day. We had to wait on a table. Everyone would be in camo clothing, many wearing sidearms. People would be talking about prior hunts. The trucks would have long guns on racks in the rear windows. How often to you see this now days?

Can we say this is the good days? Ask anyone in their 60's if this is the good old days? The youth of today does not know what it is like during the good old days. We get more plastic than metal in our cars and guns. Actually we get more plastic in the women of today as well. Nothing is built to last these days. I have called repair men out to fix tv sets, refrigerators and other things. Now if those items fail, there is nobody to repair them and the appliances are called disposable. I bought things to last but the currently built refrigerator is made to last 7 yrs but in 1966, the life expectancy was 20 yrs. We had phones supplied by the phone company and they were well built. Today the consumer has to buy their own phones and they are cheap plastic. Have a rat eat through a phone wire these days will cost you when a repairman comes to fix it. Years ago, there was no charge.

Nope, I do not think things are improved. Might be new but certainly not better.

Hi:
If you want to see "plastic" Glocks or "Junk" SKS/AK-47s sell for large sums, hang out at a GS or Pawn Shop when civil unrest begins/starts.
I prefer steel over plastic and leather over plastic. However with my medical issues and age I appreciate plastic handguns and holsters.

** If you obtain the 1957 Chev Rag Top please post a photo. The 1957 Chev, IMHO is the best looking Chev that has ever came out. In High School a '57 Rag Top was a great "Chick Magnet".

 

[oldman45]

Hi:
If you want to see "plastic" Glocks or "Junk" SKS/AK-47s sell for large sums, hang out at a GS or Pawn Shop when civil unrest begins/starts.
I prefer steel over plastic and leather over plastic. However with my medical issues and age I appreciate plastic handguns and holsters.

** If you obtain the 1957 Chev Rag Top please post a photo. The 1957 Chev, IMHO is the best looking Chev that has ever came out. In High School a '57 Rag Top was a great "Chick Magnet".

Agree on the civil unrest. It has happened and will happen again. Just electing some Presidents has driven the price of firearms up.

As to the 57 Chevy, I have had a few classics and have a semi classic convertible now. It was an experiemental car from Chrysler and way ahead of it's time. The problem is the experimental label wasn't just for Chrysler. I am experimenting with how to keep it running. So far, I figure I have about $70,000 in it and it has not been able to be driven in the last five years. Gone through three motors, five transmisions, nine pressure plates, four computers and every part of the car's brakes, turbo, fans and such has been replaced. Spent $1800 on a new top and liner five years ago. Driving it home, the transmission went out again. Now I am searching for one to put in it. The last one took months to locate. A 25 yr old vehicle with only 61K miles and perfect in every way other than mechanical.

 

[Mike1957]

Are we different shooters now than those of years past?

I notice that the shooters of today have different opinions on guns than we had 40 yrs ago.

Today most shooters coming up are not after guns with quality. They want black guns with magazines that will hold lots of rounds. They want plastic holsters.

Back in the day, we wanted quality built products. We wanted blue finishes if we did not buy the pretty stainless. We wanted accuracy for the 5-8 rounds the guns held. We wanted nicely stitched leather that held its shape after being wet. Sometimes we wanted a lining inside the holster.

Today hunters want shotguns that have plastic stocks and camo barrels. They do not care about how the gun shoots but rather how the gun appears. The new hunters of today cannot fire once and hit their game. I saw a man today shoot five times at a squirrel he had hit the first time.

Back in the day, we idolized those that could afford $650+ for a Browning Auto 5 Belgium shotgun with the reversable ring. It would take three weeks pay to get one but we loved how far out it would reach and the added features on them. If we got a double barrel or an auto loader, we made sure the shots counted because a good box of shells was almost a dollar.

Today when we walk into a gun store, the guns all look pretty much the same and even the cheap ones are priced high. The sales people do not know much about their products and look like they are too young to own a gun. Selling used guns of today will pretty much assure one of losing money. I have yet to see a Glock or one of those plastic guns have any major increase in worth.

Back in the day, we would walk into a gun store and would be called by name from the dealer. He would tell us the good features of the guns as well as the bad. His display cases were filled with various type guns and we could tell the Colts from the S&W and the H&R. Guns had appeal the way cars used to have. When we went to sell a gun, we pretty much got what we paid for it back. Many of those guns today are worth way more than we paid for them.

Where did we lose our love of quality guns that we treasured and passed down to our children? When did teens begin to think more about playing video games on Saturday morning than they did going hunting with dad or their friends?

If we have lost this much in the last 40 years, think what things will be like in 40 more. I am just glad I will not be around to see it. The younger shooters for the most part are not into political concerns about gun rights. They are not worried about Second Amendment Rights.

I feel sorry for the young shooters of today for missing out on what we older shooters enjoyed and loved.

It`s not just guns and shooting that this applies to. It`s everything. Ours has become a cheap plastic & tin throw away society. You can`t even fix most things today. When something wears out/breaks there isn`t enough left to fix. It`s cheaper to throw it away and get another one even on large items like washing machines and table saws.

I miss the days when things were made of steel and built to last. And if something did go wrong, you could fix them, or find someone to fix them.
In this regard firearms (at least the better ones) are lagging behind this trend. But it`s getting there. Gunsmiths seem to be an endangered species these days. And the ones that still are trying to make a living at it are more than a little frustrated with some of the junk.
One local gunsmith, before he retired, finally put a big sign by the door of his shop listing junk that he would not work on.

 

[Stevie]

Technology marches on...and what's in vogue changes. However most of the 'golden oldies' survive. Except the finely manufactured shotguns..many of these old classics are gone now...available only as used or inherited guns.

It was interesting earlier this week..a young kid had bought himself a really slick Belgian made A5 12ga for $400...but couldn't get it to run. A fatherless young man..he had no idea how a A5 is set up..and knew nothing about friction rings. Another neighbor tried it out..but wasn't a Browning man(neither am I)..couldn't get it to run either..so they load up in the Lexus and come see me...I had to google up how to set the friction rings in a 3 inch chambered A5 so it handle 2 3/4 inch ammo.

Moral of the story: Well quality is quality..and a 15 year old kid with no father still is likely to know that a damn slick Belgium made Browning A5 is worth getting..pleading..borrowing $400 to buy..

 

[Aubie]

The only one to blame for this is ourselves, we have let the younger generations go. We did not train them right or we would not be in the shape were in now. We did not take them hunting, fishing, camping, instill the love of the outdoors, how to be men & woman. We did not teach them values, morals or how to appreciate life, family, country.

We let the liberal schools take over raising our children, instill their viewpoints and then we tried to save what we could at home sometimes. We became a society of I'm not responsible, therefore there is no appreciation of what we loved and hold dear.

So, we are all to blame for the plastic world we live in. We each had a part to play even if we played it or not. We are a dying breed, but before I leave this world I will instill some of this into my children and grandchildren. It's my responsibility and I will accept the challenge.

 

[aphelion]

Sure, there are some things that have improved. Firearms improved and got worse. Our forefathers used muskets and flintlocks. The auto loaders and bolt action rifles of today are much better.

The interesting thing about this is that you can go back in the literature and find criticism about every technological advance in firearms. For example, many did not believe the percussion lock was better than the flinters. With the percussion lock, you were dependent on caps, a manufactured item you could not make for yourself and could run out of out in the boonies. Or the new-fangled rifled barrels fouled more quickly and were harder and slower to load than smoothbores. The criticism when repeaters emerged was loud and bitter from some who considered them to be ammo wasters that were diminishing the quality of marksmanship. Not to mention that the mechanical complexity of repeaters gave them more parts that can break and put the firearm out of commission. When non-corrosive primers made their appearance, people complained they weren't as reliable as the old corrosive ones. And on and on. I could fill a page with examples.

 

[kraigwy]

There is hope:

Thanks to the DCM (Now CMP) and their Ventage Military Programs.

Demand for "as issued" surplus 1903's, 1917s, Garands, Carbine's are going sky high.

And the GSM matches, which eliminate plastic guns.

My kid just came home after retiring from the Navy, he was a gunners mate, instructing small arms, which now is plastic.

He wanted to do some shooting, so fine, I'd only let him shoot my surplus military rifles, and Model 70s.

He said he didn't realize shooting was so much fun. Then got on the CMP Website and started the ordering process.

Got to love the CMP's junior shooting programs, kids are the future of our shooting sports.

 

[oldman45]

kids are the future of our shooting sports.

You are right about that. This is what worries me. Most kids are not going into the military, graduating from high school, going to college and staying off drugs. One friend of mine is 32 yrs old. He has seven years of college but after hundreds of resumes sent out and dozens of interviews, he earns his money as a runner for a firm at little more than minimun wage. He has never been in trouble with the law but cannot get hired. I think it may be due to his showing up for job interviews with spiked hair, wearing jeans with holes in the knees, having a nose piercing, ear rings and a dang golden stud in his tounge. Never have seen him in decent clothes but his parents are both well educated and very respected citizens. They say they cannot make him clean up.

The kids now days are working at fast food joints and cannot even get an order right. Kids cannot make change without the use of a register that does it for them.

They also get into debt so bad their homes are being foreclosed on and they are filing bankruptcy in record numbers.

If I made any statements about the kids coming home from the war in VN and how they came back approving pot use, how they are now on cocaine and how mad people get when you speak against drug use or keeping drug illegal, I would be hammered even on this site.

And they are the future not only of our shooting sports but also everything else. I see it as we have a shortage of the top 10% of the classes and too much of the system not making all the kids learn. Our future is in deep trouble. Like it or not.

 

[jimmyj]

Technology marches on...and what's in vogue changes. However most of the 'golden oldies' survive. Except the finely manufactured shotguns..many of these old classics are gone now...available only as used or inherited guns.

It was interesting earlier this week..a young kid had bought himself a really slick Belgian made A5 12ga for $400...but couldn't get it to run. A fatherless young man..he had no idea how a A5 is set up..and knew nothing about friction rings. Another neighbor tried it out..but wasn't a Browning man(neither am I)..couldn't get it to run either..so they load up in the Lexus and come see me...I had to google up how to set the friction rings in a 3 inch chambered A5 so it handle 2 3/4 inch ammo.
Moral of the story: Well quality is quality..and a 15 year old kid with no father still is likely to know that a damn slick Belgium made Browning A5 is worth getting..pleading..borrowing $400 to buy..

My Father was a "Browning A-5 Man". IIRC inside the forearm was a white diagram on how to set the friction rings for diffirent loads.

 

[oldman45]

My Father was a "Browning A-5 Man". IIRC inside the forearm was a white diagram on how to set the friction rings for diffirent loads.

Do you still have that Browning A-5?

 

[ACP230]

My youngest son is interested in a Springfield XD but shoots Springfield 1911s and 1911s with a Marvel .22 Conversion at Perry. He has also been known to shoot up a lot of .41 Magnum reloads in my Smith and Ruger .41 Magnums.
The rifle I own that he likes best is my M1A. Second is probably one of my Marlin lever guns.

My daughter likes my BHPs and Colt Commander 9mm. Makes large inroads in my 9mm supply when we get to the range.
She owns a Charter Arms .38 Special.

My oldest is looking for a shotgun--an over and under 12. He plans to start shooting trap. He and I shot bowling pins at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot with .45s and a S&W M57.

I guess I did at least a few things right.

I have given several younger shooters their first chance to shoot a
revolver. Most looked quite impressed with the "old" guns.