Have we became different shooters?

[Stevie]

No..no diagram inside the forearm of the kid's 'new' A5..I looked.

Took about 30 seconds to google up a Browning website with complete destructions though.

Kid's new gun needed the petrified cosmoline/grease cleaned off the tube and giant spring anyhow...I bet the forearm had never been off.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The shooting sports-and firearms-are not static, otherwise we'd still be using blackpowder and muzzleloaders. 2700 shooting seems to be somewhat passe today, the target revolver has largely disappeared while various "combat/tactical" competitions seem to be doing well. Cowboy Action Shooting-which combines shooting with reenacting- seems to be a good draw. Has a Cap and Ball course IIRC I have heard of a group called "Zootshooters" for those who want to shoot 1920s vintage firearms wearing period clothing.
In their day the Colt New Service, Official Police, S&W M&P and Triple Lock were all very innovative, it was quite a radical innovation when Uncle Sam decided his boys would carry a semiautomatic rifle. I would say we have more choices than ever before-is anyone doing muzzleoading trap and skeet? In period clothing ? Probably-and thoroughly enjoying themelves.

 

[blujax01]

You are right about that. This is what worries me. Most kids are not going into the military, graduating from high school, going to college and staying off drugs. One friend of mine is 32 yrs old. He has seven years of college but after hundreds of resumes sent out and dozens of interviews, he earns his money as a runner for a firm at little more than minimun wage. He has never been in trouble with the law but cannot get hired. I think it may be due to his showing up for job interviews with spiked hair, wearing jeans with holes in the knees, having a nose piercing, ear rings and a dang golden stud in his tounge. Never have seen him in decent clothes but his parents are both well educated and very respected citizens. They say they cannot make him clean up.

The kids now days are working at fast food joints and cannot even get an order right. Kids cannot make change without the use of a register that does it for them.

They also get into debt so bad their homes are being foreclosed on and they are filing bankruptcy in record numbers.

If I made any statements about the kids coming home from the war in VN and how they came back approving pot use, how they are now on cocaine and how mad people get when you speak against drug use or keeping drug illegal, I would be hammered even on this site.

And they are the future not only of our shooting sports but also everything else. I see it as we have a shortage of the top 10% of the classes and too much of the system not making all the kids learn. Our future is in deep trouble. Like it or not.

I will listen to this no longer. You Sir are painting today's youth with a wide ugly brush. Your prejudice and bigotry are in full view.
My daughter is 25 and married. She and her husband both worked their @$$es off in order to purchase their first home last year. They have both had jobs since they were 16, never got on drugs or arrested and are graduate scholars. They are upstanding fine citizens as well as is their circle of friends and they do run in a rather large circle.

There are plenty of shining examples of the "Millennials"and it is about time someone defended them.

Out.

 

[oldman45]

I will listen to this no longer. You Sir are painting today's youth with a wide ugly brush. Your prejudice and bigotry are in full view.
My daughter is 25 and married. She and her husband both worked their @$$es off in order to purchase their first home last year. They have both had jobs since they were 16, never got on drugs or arrested and are graduate scholars. They are upstanding fine citizens as well as is their circle of friends and they do run in a rather large circle.

There are plenty of shining examples of the "Millennials"and it is about time someone defended them.

Out.

I am not painting all kids with the same brush. I had three kids. One has a Ph.D and is doing well with her husband and child. Another wasted her life and died pretty much due to her habits even after getting a degree and good job. The youngest is 30 yrs of age, single, great job, multi degreed, building her a new home in a gated community(her second in two years) and is doing very well for herself. Yet I also know well that not all kids are like yours or mine. Most are not. All you have to do is look at the percentage of drop outs from high school, the high number of pregnant girls in high school, the number of youth in jails and the jobs that most hold. One of my lawyer friends is prosecuting 20+ kids a day in juvenile court.

Sure there are successful youth in the nation. For every one you find, there are a dozen others not so inspired. Even some that, as I exampled in another posting, have degrees but not enough ambition to clean themselves up to get or hold a decent job. I had a secretary two yrs ago with a business degree at 23. She was seldom on time for work, missed 41 days in the first five months of work and ultimately arrested for drug use. Naturally she was terminated. Had she applied herself, she would have made a good worker.

If you have children with good educations, good jobs and family then you can consider yourself very fortunate. There are several such in the country but they are not the normal. Talk to any juvenile Judge or LEO working with juveniles. Examine the numbers in jails due to drugs. I see more kids raising themselves today than ever before. Yet when they wind up in trouble, as been discussed by other here on other threads, the parents are screaming about how good their kids are.

I just looked it up and found that in 2009, only 72% of all high school students went on to graduate high school. That is 1 out of four did not finish high school. I cannot say how many of those that graduated went on to better themselves. Even if it was 50%, that is too low. We need to teach the kids that life is tough and their education is important to the rest of their lives.

 

[kscardsfan]

Its nothing new. I finished college with a degree from a major big 12 school and looked high and low for a full time job for a year. I worked part time for the county sheriff's office and did other odd jobs to stay afloat. I was an umpire, a bar bouncer, and anything else that paid. I got tired of waiting on background checks, apptitude tests, and other BS from all the LE agencies I applied for and ended up going into the oilfield. I make a good living, but my degree is nothing more than a high dollar piece of paper. It has given me a great lifestyle, and I own some guns that I wouldn't have even been able to look at as an LEO; so I'm not upset by any means. All the same, most of the guys I hunt/shoot with love the way old rifles look and feel. The fit and finish and machine work of a bygone era cannot be duplicated in this day and age. But most of my friends and peers cannot afford to buy pre-64 winchesters or P&R smiths. The collector market has driven the prices up so high to make them unattainable for folks just starting out in life. I represent a small, lucky minority of young men who can afford to buy those guns of the past. My friends love going shooting with me cause I give them a chance to play with "real" guns. My winchester model 52 has a 3 digit serial number and is seriously low tech compared to an AR etc, but gets the most trigger time cause its just so much fun. And for the record, I'm 26 (for another month) and I collect old guns, am restoring a 1950 chevy 3/4 ton with the 5 window cab, and drove a 1979 chevy through college, love my straight pipes Us youngsters aren't without hope. It's just hard to get into the "classics" on our budgets and in this economy. I'll stop my ranting now.-Daniel

 

[jimmyj]

Do you still have that Browning A-5?

Yes. 12gauge 3" magnum with a 32" full choke barrel.
Dad also had a Browning .22 auto rifle (Belgium) and a Ithaca 20ga DBL with single sective trigger.

 

[Bat Guano]

Stopped at Cabelas at Sidney NE this afternoon and went in to the gun counter to get out of the car and move around. Just about everything in the pistol cases was flat black plastic.

Bah, humbug.

 

[oldman45]

Yes. 12gauge 3" magnum with a 32" full choke barrel.
Dad also had a Browning .22 auto rifle (Belgium) and a Ithaca 20ga DBL with single sective trigger.

I wish mine had a vented rib. Other than that, I love it. There was a 16 ga on one of the auction sites a couple weeks ago for $1500 and I wanted to buy it but could not bring myself to do so.

 

[oldman45]

Stopped at Cabelas at Sidney NE this afternoon and went in to the gun counter to get out of the car and move around. Just about everything in the pistol cases was flat black plastic.

Bah, humbug.

That is what I am talking about. Sure I see some of the younger (25-35) owning or wanting to buy stainless, blued, revolvers, 1911, semi autos etc but most grab the "tactical" guns. It is difficult to find a nice gun now days.

My daughter brought over a DVD movie this weekend for her mother to watch. I sat in there with them for about 30 minutes and watched a bunch of shooting and did not see anything other than black guns. Of course those guns were powerful. They were turning over cars, knocking people up in the air and other things. Maybe the youth is buying them for their power.

 

[hatt]

The World has turned to junk for the most part, but guns are way down on the list. This thread seems to just be a vent against polymer more than anything else. Materials aren't the final indicator of "quality" especially when those "cheap junk plastic guns" are some of the most reliable and durable guns ever made. And they made crappy guns too 40-100-200 years ago. Just like 1000 years ago there were folks making crappy swords to sell to the people who couldn't buy the good swords.

I'm 36 and I like walnut and blue steel as much as anyone. But I realize polymer autos are where it's at for self defense. Sure I could carry my 19-4 if I wanted something much much heavier, bigger, with less than half the rounds, and a harder reload. Being sentimental only goes so far.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If we have lost this much in the last 40 years, think what things will be like in 40 more. I am just glad I will not be around to see it. The younger shooters for the most part are not into political concerns about gun rights. They are not worried about Second Amendment Rights.

I feel sorry for the young shooters of today for missing out on what we older shooters enjoyed and loved.

True, the youth of today are growing up in a world where their grandparents and great grandparents have criminalized much of what they enjoyed in their youth.

I find it curious that older generations would pass judgement about the youth not caring about 2A rights when their own collective stewardship has been a disgrace, including the greatest anti-gun legislation in American history, GCA 1968. Instead of older generations levying criticisms and judgment, perhaps it would be more appropriate to offer apology and ask forgiveness.

What will it be like in another 40 years? A lot of us won't know, but it isn't uncommon for those who make a mess to not be around for the cleanup.

 

[oldman45]

True, the youth of today are growing up in a world where their grandparents and great grandparents have criminalized much of what they enjoyed in their youth.

I find it curious that older generations would pass judgement about the youth not caring about 2A rights when their own collective stewardship has been a disgrace, including the greatest anti-gun legislation in American history, GCA 1968. Instead of older generations levying criticisms and judgment, perhaps it would be more appropriate to offer apology and ask forgiveness.

What will it be like in another 40 years? A lot of us won't know, but it isn't uncommon for those who make a mess to not be around for the cleanup.

Mr Moderator, I am in agreement with you on this. Not knowing your age, I cannot know what you have seen in your lifetime.

There have been many of the older generation mess up things but overall, we have made the world a better place. If anything, the older generation was remiss in speaking out against laws that we let happen. Yet look at the improvements we have made in aviation, medical treatments, construction and other things. Many of the youth will be good at improving computers and electronic technology. When I have to deal with industrial or medical research locations, I am not seeing a lot of younger people.

What I do see in the youth is involvement in medicine such as drs, nurses and then in law such as lawyers and police as well as firemen. Few appear to be headed for research and this is borne out by the enrollment in various colleges. It also may be a temporary trend. It also may be those coming up are interested in instant gratification. I know I was highly disappointed in how long it took me to learn I was not going to get rich after school. I wanted it immediately and I still want it now 45 yrs later. Just never found the riches.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Black guns have been around for a while now. I used to have an old Colt SP-1. It was made in 1975 according to the serial number, making it about a year younger than I am. It still worked fine. Being a somewhat sought after variant (as far as black rifles go) it actually went up in value a bit. Nice gun.

I still have a Colt Model 6500 made in 1985. I would have been sitting around as a kid playing with GI Joe, watching Robotech, and doing math homework when it left the factory. It still works fine. Oddly, I get offered a premium for it from time to time, since as black guns go, it is a traditional styled one (without the rails, etc) and even has throwback A1 style sights mixed in with the A2 features.

Anyway, four generation of Glocks in 25 years or so isn't bad. Revolvers have changed quite a bit in their production lives. That is what the little "dash" after the model number means - an engineering change. Before model numbers, there were still distinct changes over a relatively few short years - for example look at how M&Ps changed during and immediately after WW2.

 

[Frank237]

The vast majority of kids today grew up in the Tech age. Apples latest greatest computer came out today...and a week later it's already been surpassed by something from someone else. They grew up in a throw-away sort of society.

WE are to blame somewhat as the Parents of these kids. We wanted them to have even MORE than what we had as kids. We probably spoiled them more than we should have as well.

NOT working for an item, makes it worth a bit less in their minds, or more disposable.

With guns and hunting. How many of us had Parents who recall the Great Depression? Who grew up in a situation where every dollar counted?
Where hunting was weighing the waste of a single shell, to hopefully bring home some meat. Marksmanship and skill were important. They passed on those skills to us.

Not so today.

How many of us had Fathers who fought in WW2 or Korea, then later VN.

Those Dads had small arms skills and skills with machinery, etc. Again...not so common today. I am NOT saying our Soldiers today are not as comppetant...simply saying Veterans are not as PLENTIFUL as they were 30 or 40 years ago.

Look how much Movies or to a lesser degree video games INFLUENCE society. Glocks are nearly the universal handgun for gang bangers as well as the good guys in peoples minds...as thats what they see on the screen.

Or that EVERY single AR or AK out there is capable of FULL AUTO fire.

The times have changed for sure.

FN in MT certified Old Guy

 

[feralmerril]

Here is my slant. For quite awhile now we have been told the holy grail is education. Parents have been slaveing to send their kids to college. The result now is over educated idiots that dont know how to sweat at simple jobs. In this economy they cant find work for what they think they qualify. Yet others are pointing out with truth, that no one will work doing the jobs that illegals take. It seemed in my younger years girls went to college to find husbands and there went spots filled that not quite as bright male students couldnt get. Also there went the money their blue collar parents slaved for. Yeah, we all can always point to exceptions of the rule but those are my observations.
As far as I know there is class`s specaliesing in all techical subjects EXCEPT in real life common sense! Does any class pinch your ear and say look here fool! You are going to spend at least 40 to 50 hours a week for the next 45 years working for a liveing, you better find something you can stomach doing all that time! Then throw them in the fields working in 100 degree days on their hands and knees so they get the point! What school teachs all students how to save and invest in IRA`s and 401Ks and shows them the poverty to expect if they dont?
What school teachs kids that over half of them are going to end up divoriced and paying child support and alimony and the need to find the right marrage partner and how to stay married?
How many kids are from disfunctional familys of single parents or hate their step parents? How many of us have married into those type familys? How many of us feel the desire to take a stepson with a habitual "attitude" hunting etc?
Just in the last 60 years or so everything I have discribed in my time has probley increased 10 fold! And I am part of it!

 

[Steve in Vermont]

At the range last fall I was watching the youngsters sighting in their new rifles, all the latest and greatest which cost well North of a thousand dollars, plus a fancy scope. An old gentleman stopped by, brought out his very old Winchester 94, and set up on the firing table. Bang, one shot. Walked down and picked up his target, within 2" at 50 yards, said "that's good enough", packed up and left. I'm told he gets a deer every year with 1 shot so a box of shells last 10 years.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yours truly was a victim of divorce back in the Good Old Days of the 1950s, no Old Man to take me hunting or teach me about firearms, first time I handled a Real Gun was at Boy Scout Camp in the Summer of 1963. No other adult male relatives in my family to really fill the gap, don't recall any of my friends in the several places I lived who had fathers who were hunters or shooters, and outside of SE Asia I did very little shooting in the Army-no rifle or pistol teams, some of the larger bases had "rod and gun" clubs but my impression was that the Army saw no value in small arms proficency and small arms were seen as a best a necessary evil and usually an annoyance and a PITB. I gave up on trying to join a nearby gun club after I encountered rudeness from a member and I have seen-in American Rifleman and other gun publications-the acknowledgement that many gun clubs are dominated by Grumpy Old Men and Dudes with Attitudes and they do not welcome younger shooters.

 

[labworm]

At the range last fall I was watching the youngsters sighting in their new rifles, all the latest and greatest which cost well North of a thousand dollars, plus a fancy scope. An old gentleman stopped by, brought out his very old Winchester 94, and set up on the firing table. Bang, one shot. Walked down and picked up his target, within 2" at 50 yards, said "that's good enough", packed up and left. I'm told he gets a deer every year with 1 shot so a box of shells last 10 years.

Good story, there is no such thing as basics today, if you buy a $1000.00 Chess set, you will beat every grandmaster you play.

 

[WR Moore]

The world has changed. So has our way of life, incomes and the usage we put firearms to. In many cases, they've become range toys rather than items intended to put food on the table for decades at a time.

Those using firearms as a working tool have seen them change as a result of a changing threat, better knowledge of human behavior/perceptions and designs that reflect those factors. For some of us, a (particular) firearm is, in fact, the equivilent of the carpenters claw hammer. I lug "plastic fantastick" firearms daily and appreciate the advantages over more traditional designs. I will admit that if a steel framed version of the same weapon was available, I'd probably buy it-if I could afford it. We "went plastic" when we found we could get a better combat weapon at a price that allowed us to rearm the entire force for less than replacing the discontinued weapons issued to about 60% of us.

While I've noted a lot of nostaglia for certain firearms mentioned here, I'm not seeing much about the more typically common firearms. I expect there were a whole lot more Stevens doubles sold and used than Winchester 21s. My hand-me-down family firearm is a Hopkins & Allen .38 S&W breaktop.

 

[kscardsfan]

Good story, there is no such thing as basics today, if you buy a $1000.00 Chess set, you will beat every grandmaster you play.

I live by the addage of advanced skills are nothing more than the basics mastered. Practice with a .22lr and it will transfer to the .375 H&H or .44 mag you're going to carry in the field.