What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?

[BAM-BAM]

LGS had a used/like new M11A1 for IIRC just under $750 w/ three mags.....nice guns ......I've got a .40 229 w/ extra .357sig barrel.... but for concealed carry it's closer in size to a Compact Beretta 92 than a 6906 or a PC Shorty-9.


FWIW I bought my 229 about 5/6 years ago .......2 barrels and 4 mags...LNIB for a bit over $500.

 

[varmint243]

Those guns came out at the height of my interest in shooting.
They did not have a reputation as being particularly good guns.
There were a lot of other options at the time that seemed like much better choices.

 

[TexasRaider]

@ Sevens
While I respect your right to your opinion, I predictably disagree.

As has been pointed out, stainless metal handguns nearing the $1000 mark are selling quite well these days, as evidenced by the prolific breeds of 1911's, as well as the brilliant and by no means "time passed it by" Sig Classic Series. Sig just released a P220 in 10mm somewhere North of a grand, and it is selling quite well.

And the "time passing" argument falls apart even further because the last time I checked, the 1911 is well over a century old, and again it is persistently in high demand.

I stand by my statement: the reason 3rd Gens are not around is because S&W perceived it could make a higher margin by playing to the 'tactical zombie killing, Afghanistan pretend warrior' class that seems to think that only 19 rounds coupled with a Picatinny rail on a plastic frame will save you in a gunfight. Add to that that Smith hasn't been a company that really caters to its longtime loyal customers (translation: doesn't listen well) but rather chases dollars to the detriment of it's own base, and you get a situation where a darn fine platform that works brilliantly and is as tough as an M1A2 Abrams has been ditched for high profit, low workmanship polymer substitute.

Additionally, the simple fact S&W raised the fickle middle finger of fate at long time Smith buyers by abandoning (and subsequently lying with their "lifetime warranty" promise) the parts and support market for 3rd Gens says it all about who is really to blame.

Time and paying customers didn't abandon 3rd Gen Smith, but rather Smith abandoned a market to Sig, Beretta and a legion of 1911's because their bean counters said "We can make more faster now with plastic, screw our promise and to heck with 30+ year loyal buyers!"

This is the same company after all, that gutlessly scarred their revolvers with a useless, idiotic lock that NO ONE wants, simply because Hillary pointed her crooked finger at them and said 'Boo'.

Add to this the other issues that die hards hate (frame mounted firing pins, MIM parts) and you get a company that is clearly saying they're not interested in what customers want or desire, but are happy to feed them what Smith thinks is best. This is the kind of vacuum of leadership and service that did Colt in (granted however, it was much worse in Hartford than in Springfield.

Besides, I don't for a minute believe it would cost $1000 a unit to make those pistols, rather what it would cost simply isn't a big enough margin for S&W.

S&W could build these, many would sell. Admittedly not as many as they would polymers, but it would be likely enough to justify the tooling and reach back to connect with long time Smith fans. Other companies have done so, in fact Sig just re-released the P225, an all metal single stack 9mm that "time passed" by. And it's selling very well even at around an $800 price point.

So, no. I don't buy that a $700 to $800 priced 5906, 4506, 1006 would go fast. It's just not enough margin for the Scrooges over on Roosevelt Avenue ....

 

[petemacmahon]

I can't really speak about Gen 3s, cause I've never owned any. I've shot a few and never liked any of them. Personally, I don't know how anyone can love any traditional DA (as in DA/SA) gun?! How many revolvers could anybody sell if the first shot was always double the effort as the rest - you would be laughed out the door.

That trigger system is dead, regardless of what the gun is made from. There are aftermarket aluminum frames for glocks. Don't blame the frame material, blame the trigger.

I've never had the opportunity to shoot a DAO gen3. I'd jump at the chance if it came along.

 

[Arik]

@ Sevens
While I respect your right to your opinion, I predictably disagree.

As has been pointed out, stainless metal handguns nearing the $1000 mark are selling quite well these days, as evidenced by the prolific breeds of 1911's, as well as the brilliant and by no means "time passed it by" Sig Classic Series. Sig just released a P220 in 10mm somewhere North of a grand, and it is selling quite well.

And the "time passing" argument falls apart even further because the last time I checked, the 1911 is well over a century old, and again it is persistently in high demand.

I stand by my statement: the reason 3rd Gens are not around is because S&W perceived it could make a higher margin by playing to the 'tactical zombie killing, Afghanistan pretend warrior' class that seems to think that only 19 rounds coupled with a Picatinny rail on a plastic frame will save you in a gunfight. Add to that that Smith hasn't been a company that really caters to its longtime loyal customers (translation: doesn't listen well) but rather chases dollars to the detriment of it's own base, and you get a situation where a darn fine platform that works brilliantly and is as tough as an M1A2 Abrams has been ditched for high profit, low workmanship polymer substitute.

Additionally, the simple fact S&W raised the fickle middle finger of fate at long time Smith buyers by abandoning (and subsequently lying with their "lifetime warranty" promise) the parts and support market for 3rd Gens says it all about who is really to blame.

Time and paying customers didn't abandon 3rd Gen Smith, but rather Smith abandoned a market to Sig, Beretta and a legion of 1911's because their bean counters said "We can make more faster now with plastic, screw our promise and to heck with 30+ year loyal buyers!"

This is the same company after all, that gutlessly scarred their revolvers with a useless, idiotic lock that NO ONE wants, simply because Hillary pointed her crooked finger at them and said 'Boo'.

Add to this the other issues that die hards hate (frame mounted firing pins, MIM parts) and you get a company that is clearly saying they're not interested in what customers want or desire, but are happy to feed them what Smith thinks is best. This is the kind of vacuum of leadership and service that did Colt in (granted however, it was much worse in Hartford than in Springfield.

Besides, I don't for a minute believe it would cost $1000 a unit to make those pistols, rather what it would cost simply isn't a big enough margin for S&W.

S&W could build these, many would sell. Admittedly not as many as they would polymers, but it would be likely enough to justify the tooling and reach back to connect with long time Smith fans. Other companies have done so, in fact Sig just re-released the P225, an all metal single stack 9mm that "time passed" by. And it's selling very well even at around an $800 price point.

So, no. I don't buy that a $700 to $800 priced 5906, 4506, 1006 would go fast. It's just not enough margin for the Scrooges over on Roosevelt Avenue ....

I can't speak for all that but the Sig 10mm and 1911s aren't made anywhere near the same #s as the plastic frame 19 round Afghan warrior guns. Just cause you see them sell doesn't mean they sell in the same quantity. Sig has put out a lot of guns only to stop making them a year or two later. The initial interst could just be it. They may drop it by next year l. And they almost went bust years ago just selling their 220, 226, 228 239. Only when they started focusing more on other styles did they slowly emerge from almost complete failure.

1911s may seem like a lot but it's just a little from a lot of companies at different price points. I'm pretty sure more people buy the $400 then $1000 1911. And those companies are either smaller or they offset buy selling other styles as well.

How many 3rd gen would sell if they started making them? How many here would buy one on a constant basis? I see them for sale constantly in my area, which means some one is getting rid of one. If they get picked up its usually by a collector or accumulator. So for S&W to sell and make profit how many do they have to sell? They probably won't win any police contracts and how many civilians would keep buying them? I also don't see that many people carrying them. Look around, almost every post about carry is about what's the smallest and lightest. What can i pocket carry?
It's a niche market.

They don't like their loyal customers? So if my grandpa and his 2 buddies want to buy only what they're used to should S&W start production of Lemmon squeezers?


I understand you like their guns, and I like them too but I have one and don't plan to or see the need to have any more. So I can say that they won't have me as a customer.

 

[Golddog]

I owned a few SA/DA 3rd Gen. Smiths, and they all had terrible trigger pulls - long and heavy. Practically any pistol from other quality manufacturers was easier to use effectively.

 

[Arik]

I owned a few SA/DA 3rd Gen. Smiths, and they all had terrible trigger pulls - long and heavy. Practically any pistol from other quality manufacturers was easier to use effectively.

Interesting. I find it quite the opposite. I wouldn't say they are light but certainly not heavy....and smooth. The only DA/SA I like are S&W and old German Sigs. All the others are heavy and gritty.

 

[ladder13]

I want that 67 GTX with the Hemi I could never afford in my ute, someone tell Plymouth(do they even exist?) to get the assembly line a crackin'
Real American iron, no plastic bumpers.

 

[BONDOBOB]

Just as a side note, here

I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags

 

[J. W.]

I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags

He should probably check his mags or gun for issues. That's not normal. I've heard of the early Glocks not having drop free mags, but not the newer generations. I'm a handgun instructor for my department and we use gen 3 and gen 4 Glocks. Never recall ever seeing an issue with anyone ejecting their mags.

 

[Sevens]

TexasRaider, I think you have misconstrued my argument with regards to time passing. I don't mean that the 3rd Gen design or style is out of date or old news and propping that argument with the success of the 1911 doesn't prove the point.

I'm suggesting that the 3rd Gen has been out of the spotlight for too long, that's what I mean about the passing of time. I'm saying that if it were 1998 right now, we could make a far more realistic argument for S&W keeping it alive.

As to S&W not catering specifically to buyers, S&W fans or to a market? Well, kind of makes them like almost all the other gunmakers these days. They are a for-profit company that also answers to share holders.

The current version of S&W, no matter what a bunch of gun cranks thinks, is far better than the LAST version of S&W, that's for sure. They bought the company at a depressed price & made them a huge player in the industry once again.

That may not be the kind of success this vocal little group cares for so much, but the value of the stock & viability of the company is far stronger today than it was when Tompkins nearly crashed and burned it entirely.

 

[kbm6893]

I can't really speak about Gen 3s, cause I've never owned any. I've shot a few and never liked any of them. Personally, I don't know how anyone can love any traditional DA (as in DA/SA) gun?! How many revolvers could anybody sell if the first shot was always double the effort as the rest - you would be laughed out the door.

That trigger system is dead, regardless of what the gun is made from. There are aftermarket aluminum frames for glocks. Don't blame the frame material, blame the trigger.

I've never had the opportunity to shoot a DAO gen3. I'd jump at the chance if it came along.

Oh man, I can't disagree strongly enough. The TDA system is just fine for those who devote some time and money in ammo (never a bad thing)into training. It's this new generation of guns that has created that animosity. Glock literally uses the "no safety levers to fumble with" in their sales pitch, as if learning how to use a safety (a device that has certainly prevented more deaths and injuries than has caused them) is such a hardship. Shooting a TDA weapon is completely natural if you take the time to master it, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks. ND's are less likely with a longer first shot, and far less likely with a hammer to cover with your thumb as you holster.

 

[ladder13]

Always enjoy these endless "why don't they bring back the 3rd G?" threads, a diversion from the usual bacon, CTG, and puppy dogs.
It's funny how people rant and rave, ad nauseum, about clocked barrels, ill fitting parts, MIM, poor QC, yada yada("not your grampa's S&W"), then miraculously think a resurgence of 3rd Gen's will be any different. Really?
Ever ran a business yourself?

Maybe some old time gunsmiths will come out of retirement just to build them?

I'm in for a lightweight 45 should this miracle take place.

Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?

 

[Sevens]

Nostalgia is a drug, I think.

At least we are all so fond of something fairly recent and in arguably high volume. They don't make 3rd Gens anymore... and that stinks. But on the good side, we sure have a lot of them to chase after.

 

[texmex]

They finally figured out that autos are a passing fad. They should stick to revolvers.

 

[TTSH]

It's all such a moot point. They aren't coming back.

 

[Decker]

If Orange is the new Black, then CZ's are the new 3rd Gens.

I'll keep my 3rd Gens and have a good time with them, but I've now added a CZ 75b Stainless and a CZ Tactical Sport to the mix and have come to highly appreciate them the more I shoot them.
Both feel better in the hand, are rock solid reliable, don't cost an arm and a leg (well, the maybe the CZ-TS), are as accurate as any 9mm you can buy today, and you can buy one just by picking up a phone since they are current production with lots of parts and upgrades available if you like.
My next will be a Compact and there will probably be more after that.

I have never gotten used to the 3rd Gen double-stacks feeling a bit large in the hand, but the CZ's fix that somehow and I feel very comfortable with the two double-stacks that I have.

Don't have an M&P. Never will. For plastic, I go Springfield XD's of various flavors.

 

[TexasRaider]

Do Sig, CZ, HK, Beretta make revolvers?

If Sig did make a revolver, although it would likely be 20% higher at the price point than a S&W, I'm sure it would be a heck of lot nicer and I doubt Sig would foist such unwanted stupidity on it's customers as an internal lock.

And bashing folks for preferring a very effective, reliable and extremely usable DA/SA metal pistol, dismissing them as unrealistic fogeys addicted to 'nostalgia' is neither an intelligent response nor a practical explanation, it is simply a childlike rock throwing insult.

If 'nostalgia' was such a bad idea business wise, explain to me again the soaring number of 1911 sales? Not much on the market older than that right now. And Smith's vigorous sales of their own revolvers (those ancient, obsolete, ineffective lead chunkers of yore) seem to be doing very well in the CHL market, thereby belying the notion of "old equals dead and useless."

Firearms are not buggywhips or muscle cars, stay apples to apples here. They are a unique product that have designs going back many, many decades. M1 Garands are still being made and sold *because* in no small part, they are very nostalgic. Why did Colt bring back the Delta Elite? Because it's the greatest tactical handgun ever? Uh, no. Because it's nostalgic and the 10mm (that huge, loud, obsolete mushroom cloud evoking monster) is in a wonderful resurgence.

Don't equate the fact that S&W won't build 3rd Gens again with the idea building them is a bad idea. Smith's will is not the market, it is only their desired response to the market, and there is a good chance they're missing an opportunity. Yes, S&W is a business that needs to make a profit and does answer to investors, but just because they are in this business doesn't mean they are right about every business decision. Simply put, not making them just might be a wrong decision. Remember the Sigma? The 586's in the 1980's with firing pins that stuck in magnum primers and disable many a State Trooper's handgun with one shot? Oh yeah, S&W can foul up horribly, has done so before. Still not convinced their M&P like is nearly as durable as advertised.

Lastly, as to 'obsolescence', I seriously doubt any murderous thug felon that has expired since 1988 due to being lawfully shot by an LEO or citizen with a 3rd Gen S&W suddenly feels more alive today because that weapon is no longer in fashion, because it cannot mount silly accessories around its dust cover or fails to hold 20 rounds. Those would be killers are still DRT, and the 3rd Gen Smith that put them in the dirt are still highly effective. And anyone who knows how to use and shoot a DA/SA such as the 3rd Gen clearly understands that is not a 'dead trigger' system.

But I suppose the numerous state and federal law enforcement agencies, Navy SEALS and other military outfits ordering Sig Sauer DA/SA's this year forgot to log onto this forum to find out how stupid they are for doing so, and to get ifresh instructions on what truly works.

May angels and ministers of grace protect those poor underequipped souls carrying a 5906, 4506 or 3914 tonight...time has passed them sadly by and, the clock having struck midnight, their weapons suddenly no longer function and will surely see their owners fall perilously to their doom....

 

[Arik]

I talked to a Peoria AZ officer today and he said something, interesting. When he is out shooting and he goes to eject the 1st EMPTY mag from his glock and he pushes the button and the mag JUST WON'T COME OUT sometimes, he has a VERY sick feeling, I did not know that they are PLASTIC. The pause and pull out could be the difference between live or death, he told me. Peoria AZ forces their officers to use glock or he would have a Springfield or such with METAL mags

It's not the gun. Ok it could be but.....early mags were mad to NOT be drop free.the idea is that you pull the mag out and replace it with the full one.....ie....don't loose them. I have both types and if you look at websites that sell surplus Glock mags they will state that some won't drop free.

Have that officer spend $25 and buy a new mag to try....guaranteed it will drop free. He simply has the old mags that ate still in rotation

He should probably check his mags or gun for issues. That's not normal. I've heard of the early Glocks not having drop free mags, but not the newer generations. I'm a handgun instructor for my department and we use gen 3 and gen 4 Glocks. Never recall ever seeing an issue with anyone ejecting their mags.

 

[ladder13]

I'd love a new Reg Mag when the petition gets started.