What do I have?

[bcowern]

I purchased a New Model 3 from the US that was described as being chambered in 44 S&W Russian.

Upon inspection, the revolver is in excellent condition with matching numbers on barrel, frame, latch, cylinder, and extractor. The checkered walnut grips fit the frame, but are not numbered. The cylinder shows the step found on my other New Model 3’s that are chambered in 44 Russian and the rifling in the barrel is consistent with that found on my other NM 3’s. There are British proofmarks on the barrel, frame, and the cylinder flutes.

I put the gun aside for a month or so without ever placing 44 Russian cartridges in the cylinder. When I did, I was surprised to discover that cases would not extract without some ending up under the extractor. I am embarrassed to say, it took me much longer than it should have, to realize my new pistol was .45 calibre and not .44.

With the British proofs, I suspected the gun was chambered in one of the .45 calibre British cartridges such as 455 Webley, but it appears that it might be chambered in 45 Schofield instead.

Taking some measurements, I found .479” chamber diameter at the back end of the chamber, .455” at the front of the chamber, and 1.04” from the back of the chamber to the step in the chamber. This caused me to suspect it might be chambered for .45 S&W. Unfortunately, I don’t have a Schofield round or case to test my theory.

I do have some .455 Webley cartridges which chamber and extract OK, but the cartridge rims leave a noticeable gap from the back of the rim to the recoil shield. The Webley rims are thin compared to the cartridge rims on the 44 Russian rounds. The 44 Russian rounds have the correct rim thickness for use in my revolver, and I note that the .44 Russian and .45 Schofield have the same rim thickness.

Is my revolver possibly chambered for .45 Schofield and if so, would 455 Webley rounds safe to shoot in it?

Regards,
bcowern

 

[mrcvs]

If you order a factory letter, that would tell you what your revolver is chambered in.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Could the cylinder be chambered in 44-40 (44WCF)? The larger diameter of the rim would allow the extractor star to slip over the rim of 44 Russian yet still have a 44 caliber barrel. Just an idea.

Ivan

 

[gkitch]

These were not chambered in 44 WCF. I would run the serial number past Roy Jinks and see if he can identify the caliber. I agree with Mr CVS that you will likely need a letter though. Could be rare.

Perhaps some closeups of the markings may give us a clue?

 

[glowe]

Check the face of the cylinder for a measurement of the chambers. plus give us measurements of the lands and grooves from the muzzle. There were a few slightly different British calibers made with this revolver. The 450 Revolver, 455 Webley, 455 Mark I and Mark II was known to have been produced by S&W. Barne book on cartridges of the World shows exact dimensions of these rounds.

Not sure I would rule out 45 Schofield until you check the case you were using. Some modern and converted 45 Colt cases have a very small base. Schofield had a .522" rim while Colt had only a .512" rim. The Scofield has a 1.1" case length and a .476" base diameter. 450 should measure .477" base and .89" case length, while 455 Webley is .480" case diameter and only a .77" case length.

Of course the New Model 3 was made in 44-40 with some 2072 Frontier 44 Winchesters manufactured, but the base diameter was smaller, .471", but would have two restrictions in the chambers, one for the step in the case and one for the step down for the .429" bullet.

 

[opoefc]

FWIW; I've had several NM#s in .45 Schofield over the yrs and the letters came back as "caliber 45' Jinks told me that most of the shipping records for .45 caliber NM#3s in .45 just say ".45" None of shipping records for guns in .45 Schofield mention the name Schofield . However NM#3s I've had in .450 Eley or .450 Webley lettered in those calibers. Ed

 

[bcowern]

Thanks for the replies.

When I sent for the letter, I thought My revolver was a chambered in .44 Russian as I had taken no chamber measurements yet, or even put .44 Russian cartridges in the chamber.

In my letter request, I stated the revolver was in . 44 Russian, not .45 calibre which is what I actually have, so the research would have been for a .44.

My letter request was received just before they stopped accepting requests altogether.

From the letter I received, I am not sure if all 5 units in the shipment were for .44 cal, checkered walnut grips, 6 1/2”barrel, etc; or if there were other calibres and configurations in the shipment.

The rifling in the barrel of my revolver is consistent with the rifling in the .44 Russian NM3's I have, just .45 cal. Five grooves, right hand twist, the lands and grooves look to be equal width.

My revolver shows no signs of being reworked, with evidence of blue in both ends of the chambers and barrel. No factory rework marks on frame.

With the measurements I've taken, I am leaning towards .45 S&W.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[Model19man]

Thanks for the replies.

With the measurements I've taken, I am leaning towards .45 S&W.

Regards,
bcowern

The good thing is that if you choose to fire your revolver, useable brass can easily be made from 45 Colt cases. More here:

45 S&W Schofield Brass - Large Pistol - Brass Cases

 

[glowe]

Contact Roy and he will tell you if the books state the exact caliber. It is unusual for a S&W shipped to England to be a 44 Russian, which is an American caliber. W.C.Scott was a Birmingham, England gun-maker and distributor who almost always ordered S&Ws in one of the British calibers.

Forgot to add that there is a significant difference between the bore of a 455 and a 44 Russian. The Russian should be around .429" and the .455 is just that, or .026" larger than the Russian. Also, a 44 Russian bullet will free fall through the barrel of a 45 Schofield. Check it out.

 

[mrcvs]

Is it .44 Bull Dog?

.44 Bull Dog - Wikipedia

 

[TripleLock]

I cannot believe no one has mentioned the gold medallion stocks on the OP's revolver.

I, for one, am jealous.

Jim

 

[edgarspencer]

I cannot believe no one has mentioned the gold medallion stocks on the OP's revolver.

I, for one, am jealous.

Jim

Or the target sights.

 

[bcowern]

Contact Roy and he will tell you if the books state the exact caliber. It is unusual for a S&W shipped to England to be a 44 Russian, which is an American caliber. W.C.Scott was a Birmingham, England gun-maker and distributor who almost always ordered S&Ws in one of the British calibers.

Forgot to add that there is a significant difference between the bore of a 455 and a 44 Russian. The Russian should be around .429" and the .455 is just that, or .026" larger than the Russian. Also, a 44 Russian bullet will free fall through the barrel of a 45 Schofield. Check it out.

Gary,

I had assumed my revolver was .44 Russian because that is how it was described to me. When I got the gun, the cylinder "looked" like one for the .44 Russian as it had the step in the cylinder. Unfortunately, when I sent for the letter, I stated it was .44 Russian, as this was my mistaken assumption. I had not tried .44 cartridges the chamber yet. The letter I got back states my revolver is .44.

It was not until after I sent for the letter, and tried .44 Russian cases in the cylinder and noticed that some of the cases would slip under the extractor when the revolver was opened. I then placed the bullet end of a loaded .44 Russian cartridge into the muzzle and realized as you state, the bullet would free fall through the barrel.

I had some .455 Webley rounds and when tried bullet end of the cartridge in the muzzle of my gun, I realized my gun is .45 calibre. When I placed the the Webley cartridges in the cylinder of my gun, I noticed the rim thickness of the Weblley rounds was too thin for my gun, as they left a noticeable gap between the back of the cartridge and the recoil shield. The .44 Russian cases placed in my revolver at least have the correct rim thickness for my gun.

The measurements I took of my cylinder, particularly the 1.04” from the back end of the chamber to the step in the chamber, which would be too long for the .455 Webley. This combined with the incorrect rim thickness of the .455 Webley for my revolver leads me to suspect my gun might be chambered for .45 S&W Schofield.

My NM 3 shows no signs of being altered, and I think .45 S&W would be an unusual calibre shipped to England. I am fairly certain my gun was shipped as a .45 calibre and not .44 Russian as I originally thought.

Now that I know I have a .45 calibre revolver and not a .44 Russian, as I stated in my original letter request, I wonder if Roy would be willing to shed some light on the 5 guns in the shipment to W.C Scott.

Do you know how to contact Roy?

Regards
bcowern

 

[bcowern]

Is it .44 Bull Dog?

.44 Bull Dog - Wikipedia

mrcvs,

My NM 3 is .45 calibre is .45 and not .44Russian as I originally thought when I submitted my letter request.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[mrcvs]

mrcvs,

My NM 3 is .45 calibre is .45 and not .44Russian as I originally thought when I submitted my letter request.

Regards,
bcowern

The letter states your revolver is .44 caliber, that’s why I suggested this. Probably a long shot, but, indeed, a .44 caliber British round from the era.

Even if you state in your letter request that your revolver is .44 caliber, letters are tailored to match the factory records and not owner claims. If your revolver accepts .45 caliber rounds, it’s possible the revolver is modified, the records are wrong, or the letter contains a typo.

So, yes, you would want to contact Dr Jinks about a possible typo. You ask about the best way to contact Roy. I’ll not post his private contact information on the public side of the forum, but, if you join the Smith & Wesson Collector’s Association, you gain access to the private side of the forum where you can ask questions of Dr Jinks directly.

 

[glowe]

Roy has so many things going on the he is not always looking at his PMs and emails. Since this is in reference to a letter that you requested being incorrect, I would go through the SWHF. You can place a request for clarification on the SWHF section http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-historical-foundation/ or send a Private Message to Bill Cross (Doc44) and let him know your issue, mainly that the letter states 44 and the bore is 45 on your NM3. Give him as much information as you can and include a link to this thread. Don Mundell has joined the letter writing team, but since Roy issued the letter, I would ask Bill if he could contact Roy for you.

 

[bcowern]

I followed the suggestion from glowe, and sent a PM to Bill Cross, asking for clarification on the discrepancy between the .44 calibre mentioned in the Factory Letter for my NM3, and the actual .45 calibre of my NM3.

Bill Cross put me in contact with Don Mundell.

I provided Don Mundell with my question and the details of my NM3.

The other day, when I looked in my mailbox, I was pleasantly surprised to find Don had sent a revised Factory Letter for my revolver.

I now know my NM3 was shipped to W.C.Scott & Sons in .45 S&W Schofield in 1895.

This Forum is truly a remarkable resource for the study of S&W antiques. The knowledge and willingness to help is, to say the least, outstanding.

Thanks to all who have helped resolve the calibre my NM3 was shipped in. Now all I have to do is find some .45 S&W Schofield cartridges or components here in Canada.

Regards,
bcowern