What Full Sized Revolver Was Most Carried “In the Old West”

[btvarner]

All,
This is a topic that I have cross-posted in both the Colt Forum & the Smith & Wesson Forum. My questions are for research I am conducting on firearms from the last half of the 19th century. Please understand that I am NOT trying to start a S&W vs. Colt or Chevy vs. Ford conflict. My concern surrounds some facts and figures of production numbers from that timeframe. I am a long time collector. I have all types and brands of firearms. For the purposes of this thread, I am not concerned with which brand is better. Thanks for your understanding. This is a very long read…………

I am trying to gather figures and timeframes to better understand the widespread usage of full size holster revolvers “in the old west”. So the subject here is civilians who were defensive and offensive carriers of full size handguns in the period of 1870 to 1900.

To better narrow who would be likely to carry this type of revolver, here are some examples of people who I feel would fall into the category during the 1870-1900 timeframe. Cowboys, law enforcement or security, ranchers, backwoodsmen, criminals. Anyone who would have high odds of being involved in defending their person from animals or other humans. This is to distinctly differentiate from say a town or city banker or business owner of the timeframe who carried money deposits & would be just as likely to carry a pocket pistol as a full sized holster pistol.

I ask all this because the numbers I am coming up with do not seem to align with prevailing beliefs for the old west. Below are some figures I have researched. I have referenced these numbers from writers such as Wilson, Jinks, Supica, and other.

The modern Colt full sized revolver of the day would have been the Colt SSA/Bisley. The Smith & Wesson full sized revolver would have been the Model 3 (In all its variations). Here is what figures I have on these two brands:

*Colt SSA/Bisley*
164,100 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1896)
37,060 – US Military Usage
127,040 – Total Colt SSA/Bisley Manufactured for Civilian Market

*S&W Model 3* (American, Russian, Schofield, New)
162,865 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1898)
19,232 – US & Foreign Military Usage
143,663 – Total Smith & Wesson Model 3 Manufactured for Civilian Market

The US & territorial population west of the Mississippi in 1890 was 20,594,1605. I picked an imaginary number of 5% of that population as falling into the “Likely to carry a full sized holster pistol”. I have no idea if this number is way low or way high. That is not as important as the fact it is a defined number. Now some more figuring:

1,029,708 – 5% of the 1890 population west of the Mississippi
514,854 – Assumes ½ of the 1880 population west of the Mississippi is male.

If 5% of the male population correctly falls into the category, then 514,854 males in 1890 west of the Mississippi carried a full size holster pistol. In which case:

127,040 – Carried the Colt SSA/Bisley
143,663 – Carried the Smith & Wesson Model 3
244,151 – Carried Some Other Brand/Type

The percentages for the above numbers is:

25% – Carried the Colt SSA/Bisley
27% – Carried the Smith & Wesson Model 3
48% – Carried Some Other Brand/Type

These numbers are not valid for several reasons. It assumes that all manufactured Colt SSA/Bisley & S&W Model 3 revolvers went west and none stayed in the east. Plus the manufacturing numbers are through 1898, yet the population numbers are for 1890, Eight years earlier.

I understand the likely wild variations from the true numbers. But the point is not whether the numbers are exact, but rather if the percentages are close? If they are, this is not how we have been told to understand which full size holster revolvers were overwhelmingly carried in the old west.

More importantly for my research, it appears nearly half of all such revolvers carried were neither Colt SAA/Bisley or S&W Model 3. Were they mainly: Older Colt’s & Colt’s Conversion? Older S&W? Other brands such as Merwin Hulbert, Hopkins & Allen, etc.?

Please let me know where I might be wrong and why. I am not trying to fit figures to support my beliefs. Just trying to understand.

Thanks!

 

[Rpg]

Your guess at 514,854 males west of the Mississippi is understandable, but it’s the wrong number if you’re estimating the gun carrying population: it’s a huge over estimate.

Your estimate includes male infants and children and elderly males, none of which are part of the gun carrying population.

I suspect that the gun carrying population was less than half the number you’ve used.

 

[bulletslap]

With close to 300 thousand Colt 1851 Navy built, this model would be in the running for most common full size revolver.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have no numbers but I suspect that cartridge conversions of percussion Colt revolvers was a significant component of the gun carrying crowd.

 

[Jim Watson]

And not converted. Lots of army surplus after 1865.

Full size only?
My favorite article in the Sacramento Bee called mining town Bodie, Cal. "Bad Shot Gulch."
"Army and Navy revolvers in scabbards are seldom seen. The usual weapon is a Bulldog revolver in a canvas or leather lined coat pocket."

And consider the thousands upon thousands of cheap guns, "suicide specials" and "Saturday night specials" that served people who could not afford a name brand and did not want to hump a heavy sixgun.

 

[btvarner]

Hi Jim, your comments is exactly what I am ultimately trying to get at. Would like to be able to come up with a reasonable percentage range of, "all the other brands/types used during the timeframe.

I can't help but feel that if one could transport back to that time period in the west, we would NOT see everyone walking around with a Colt SSA or S&W Model 3 strapped to their hip. Like is portrayed in the movies........

More likely many old Colt cap & balls' & their conversions, plus a multitude of everything else under the sun!

 

[crstrode]

Not including the millions of cap and ball revolvers in common circulation at that time is a certain indicia of very bad research.

 

[Sistema1927]

Real life is not like the movies. A sizeable percentage of cowboys didn't even possess a revolver. I don't know what that percentage was, but contrary to modern opinion, not everyone went around "heeled".

 

[btvarner]

Hi crstrode,
Please tell me where I might research "cap and ball revolvers in common circulation at that time"?
Not sure I understand how to research "in circulation". Owned yes. When manufactured, yes. Number converted to cartridge maybe. But how would I go about determining the numbers still carried after the Colt SAA came out in 1873?
Not trying to be flippant, I would honestly like to know how you would go about such a research? Thanks!

 

[Mbrgr1]

Real life is not like the movies. A sizeable percentage of cowboys didn't even possess a revolver. I don't know what that percentage was, but contrary to modern opinion, not everyone went around "heeled".

So I suppose you're going to tell me that "the quick and the dead" was not real? Total buzz kill man.

 

[merl67]

I think one assumption that gets made often time probably due to cowboy movies and TV shows is that everyone was armed with a revolver of some sort. I also think for the same reason Colt SAA's were pretty much it. I think probably the more likely sidearm until way late in the expansion of the westup to the 1890's would have been any one of the Remington or Colt muzzle loading revolvers with a bunch of cartridge conversion ones thrown in. The reasons would be one cartridges were still relatively new. Two much easier to just carry power, ball, and primers, and probably cheaper, and easier to get. Both S&W, and Colt large cartridge revolvers would have still been fairly new and more costly than the surplus revolvers left over from the civil war.

 

[BMur]

Historically accurate?

It's an interesting question but not one that you will be able to answer with any amount of accuracy.

Historically accurate information? There have always been more guns in this country than people. Where the guns are at any given time is anyone's guess.

That era (1870-1900) was a very difficult time to be alive. The percentage of people that died from sickness was alarming. So many people lost parents and children, siblings, etc. Left to live their life as best they could... That's the real Old West. On my late father's side? There were 10 kids. Grew up during the Great Depression....4 of the 10 died from disease, and 2 in the Wars. To say we have it good now is an understatement.

People who lived prior to 1900 were often desperate and carried guns just the stay alive. My research suggests that a very large percentage of the population went heeled just to remain unmolested, clothed, and fed. A gun was a very basic necessity in that 30 year period and they were sold "everywhere"!!!


Murph

 

[mrcvs]

Also, it should be noted that live rounds would usually have been fired much more sparingly than is depicted in the movies and in Old West television shows. The cost of ammunition was a much larger percentage of ones income than it is now.

 

[desi2358]

Hi crstrode,
Please tell me where I might research "cap and ball revolvers in common circulation at that time"?
Not sure I understand how to research "in circulation". Owned yes. When manufactured, yes. Number converted to cartridge maybe. But how would I go about determining the numbers still carried after the Colt SAA came out in 1873?
Not trying to be flippant, I would honestly like to know how you would go about such a research? Thanks!

Rather doubt there is any way to determine how many of the older guns stayed in regular use. But the introduction of new models doesn't mean they were suddenly widely available. Most early 1873 production went to the government, S&W was hampered by large foreign contracts using much of their production capacity. Newer guns took a while to get into regular service among the general public.

Besides things like gun smith conversions Colt was selling it's open top cartridge revolvers even as the 1873 was in production. Remington catalogs show that they were still selling their Army model cap & ball and you could get it with a cartridge cylinder so you could have both options. And continued to offer them even after their new 1875 model became available.

Over time the newer models became more available but the "Old West" was becoming more settled and for many people the need for powerful, full size guns was lessened. While those in "high risk" jobs (law enforcement for example) were likely to want the newest and best they could get some still held on to their older guns. When lawman Dallas Stoudenmire was killed in a fight in 1882 his primary weapons were two 44 S&W American models but he also had (and reportedly used in his last fight) a cut down Colt 1860 cartridge conversion. Just because a gun was an older model didn't discourage people from continuing to use them.

Those who didn't feel the need (or have the budget) for the newer guns continued to use their older guns or settled for less expensive smaller guns such as the many pocket models available. For many people in the "old west", especially in the wilder parts of the country a good rifle or shotgun was more important than the type of handgun they carried.

Put simply there is no way I can think of you can actually determine any kind of numbers about what people were carrying. There just isn't any kind of reliable documentation outside of a few isolated cases. Pictures are unreliable as many of the guns seen in them were photographers props (which is well documented fact). Though at least photos of dead outlaws which show the guns taken off them can usually be considered accurate in those cases. Newspaper reports may or may not be accurate (if they even mention the guns involved in an incident). Diaries or books from the period might tell you of a few individual choices but can hardly be considered as all encompassing.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

info

In the old west, most did not carry guns in holsters, most were carried in pockets, vests coats, etc.

 

[Heinz]

It would be interesting if you could access records of ammunition sales. Even an outfit like Sears and Roebucks would be informative.

Peters or Union Metallic Cartridge numbers might inform your research,

 

[Buford57]

And if you are using 1890 as your benchmark, you would have to include the DA belt guns of both S&W and Colt as well as the Remington and Merwin & Hulbert offerings. Put me down, too as having a strong suspicion that a large number who carried a holstered revolver stayed with the C&B well into the 80s or 90s unless they were "gun guys" or professionals on one side or other of the law.

 

[btvarner]

Thanks for all the comment so far. Someone pointed out an error in Smith & Wesson manufacturing numbers. In Jinks book, he discussed Russian contract Model 3 revolver numbers in two sections. I had then mistakenly added these numbers in twice, causing a major error. Here are the correct S&W Model 3 production figures which will obviously change the other portion of the calculations.

S&W Model 3 (American, Russian, Schofield, New)
134,138 – Manufactured (ca. 1873-1898)
68,486 – US & Foreign Military Usage
65,652 – Total Smith & Wesson Model 3 Manufactured for Civilian Market

 

[crstrode]

And if you are using 1890 as your benchmark, you would have to include the DA belt guns of both S&W and Colt as well as the Remington and Merwin & Hulbert offerings. Put me down, too as having a strong suspicion that a large number who carried a holstered revolver stayed with the C&B well into the 80s or 90s unless they were "gun guys" or professionals on one side or other of the law.

Yup. Elmer Keith himself used cap and ball revolvers as a regularly carried gun for many years.

 

[crazyphil]

btvarner - I assume that everywhere you typed SSA you meant SAA for
Single Action Army. The 1873 SAA was the long 7.5" barrel model, and
was issued to the Army. The 5.5" model came next in 1875. The 4.75"
model, that we see a lot of in the Western movies and TV shows didn't
come out until 1879. The Bisley model that you mention came out in
1894. In between all that (in 1877) Colt brought out their Lightning
model which was a double action revolver. S&W's Schofield model was
introduced in 1875. Thought these introduction dates of the various
models might be helpful to your study.
BTW the original SAA from 1873 with the 7.5" barrel was issued
to the Cavalry, so it acquired the name as the Cavalry model and
the name stuck.