What if they don't follow your commands?

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Yes because according to you no CCW permitee is ever qualified enough or justified enough to do anything other than watch.

Is there any circumstance where a CCW would be justified in helping prevent a crime or assisting in apprehending a criminal once it has taken place?

Just curious. :D

Dale


Yes Sir,

In the Commonwealth jurisdiction I worked in....

431.005 Arrest by peace officers -- By private persons

(6) A private person may make an arrest when a felony has been committed in
fact and he or she has probable cause to believe that the person being arrested has committed it.

ref. http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/statute.aspx?id=45761

*515.020 Robbery in the first degree.
(1) A person is guilty of robbery in the first degree when, in the course of committing
theft, he uses or threatens the immediate use of physical force upon another person
with intent to accomplish the theft and when he:
(a) Causes physical injury to any person who is not a participant in the crime; or
(b) Is armed with a deadly weapon; or
(c) Uses or threatens the immediate use of a dangerous instrument upon any
person who is not a participant in the crime.
(2) Robbery in the first degree is a Class B felony.

.
 
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Doing nothing is very different than mitigating risk

Isn’t there an old saying that goes like this:

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing”

It's important to differentiate between grave, imminent danger and a nonviolent threat.

For me, the best solution is to minimize the potential for injury or death of everybody concerned. My firearm will only be drawn if myself, family or good actor is threatened with imminent, grievous harm or death.

I'll suck it up and be as good a witness as possible. That's far from doing "nothing "
 
It's important to differentiate between grave, imminent danger and a nonviolent threat.

Are not threats a harbinger of violence? In the OP’s scenario a weapon is implied. An unpleasant situation may escalate into extreme violence immediately. IIRC, the 1972 Olympic massacre in Munich started with a knock on a door.
 
sights.



If it was you standing in line at the quik-sac and the guy in front of you sticks a gun in the clerk's face and cocks the hammer and she looks at you with the most helpless look you ever seen....Just what would do?

.

I posted my rules of thumb in post #5

But......

I'll bite....my initial thoughts and even that's taking more time than I'd have standing in line.......options......
1) I can stick my gun to the back of his neck....... we seem to have a nasty stand off (with a possible 3rd strike felon)......or
2) do I draw and fire (with an extreme upward angle*) and pray he doesn't reflexively pull the 4lb trigger on a cocked gun?

Keith what would you do, and suggesting we do ??????


* if I fire parallel to the floor hoping to sever the spinal column;not really sure that would work to shut his CNS instantly down, a through and through will hit the clerk.......
 
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If any of you need to borrow my copy of Massad Ayoob’s book “In The Gravest Extreme” for reference, I’ll gladly loan it to you. The book is subtitled: “The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection” (the emphasis on “Personal” is mine)

I began following Ayoob’s wisdom in the mid-80’s, just prior to the time I got my Florida CCW in 1987. This book is the first of many of his I have read.

In regards to the discussion at hand and others recent to this forum, one paragraph in the introductory chapter stands out to me:

“Some gun owners may consider [this book] a suggested abrogation of their Constitutional rights. On the contrary, it is the failure to institute such controls that may eventually terminate the privilege of carrying concealed weapons for personal safety. Every well intentioned citizen who shoots a shoplifter or petty thief—or a bystander, with a wild bullet—causes a public clamor to take away the privilege of keeping guns for personal defense, not only from him, but from me and every other responsible citizen who chooses to arm himself.” — Massad Ayoob, 1980

Every “Good Guy With a Gun” scenario where a CCW permit holder kept his cool and didn’t draw his weapon until forced into “The Gravest Extreme” furthers our cause.

Every “CCW permit holder draws gun and shoots out tires of nail gun thieves” scenario detracts from our cause.

The frustration with a thief getting away with a storekeepers wares, much less the family heirlooms can be overwhelming, but as citizens, we who choose to carry, do so to preserve life, not loot.

Lastly, I’m a little appalled at the those LEO’s on the forum who seem to advocate open gunplay over petty theft.

REAL MEN PROTECT THEIR FAMILIES AND LOVED ONES AND INNOCENT BYSTANDERS, NOT MATERIAL THINGS!
 

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By the time I saw this thread some of you had already posted my intended reply. There was no mention of the robber having a gun or knife so my presumption is that none was presented in this hypothetical situation. That being the case, I would certainly not have drawn my gun, as there was no threat to me.

Now, lets look at another potential response to this scenario.
WITHOUT drawing a gun....is there no one here capable of taking down an unarmed robber(from their rear), as opposed to just letting him walk? With the scenario as it was layed out the person behind him in line would certainly have the advantage of surprise in their favor.
 
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Going by the rules in my state (as I understand them) ...

If he just threatens, but doesn't display a deadly weapon or threaten that he has a deadly weapon and will use it, it's a property theft. You can't use deadly force against property theft.

If he punches or slaps the clerk, but not in a way that appears to be a deadly attack, you can use physical force to stop the attack, but not deadly force.

If the BG threatens the clerk with a deadly weapon (gun/knife/bat) or physically attacks the clerk in a deadly manner (e.g. kicks to the head), you could use deadly force to defend the clerk and yourself (proximity). Whether that's prudent or not would depend on the circumstances at the moment.
 
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what to do

This is not legal advice. I am not a LEO or criminal lawyer, but I recall from school the general law that the "rescuer" doctrine gives one the legal right to intervene to the same extent as the victim has, that is, to step in the victim's shoes, on the social theory that it is socially responsible. So if I had a gun pointed at me, I certainly believe I have the right to draw and shoot, and as a "rescuer" I believe I have that same right. Long ago the doctrine was "just let the criminal have your wallet" but too often I read of compliant victims being shot/killed anyway.

Deciding in a split second whether the assailant intends to pull the trigger or just take my money and run, is a much more difficult idea. And yes, a lawsuit is probable either from the assailant/family, or the bystanders/victims who got shot "because the robber was not going to shoot".
 
I posted my rules of thumb in post #5

But......

I'll bite....my initial thoughts and even that's taking more time than I'd have standing in line.......options......
1) I can stick my gun to the back of his neck....... we seem to have a nasty stand off (with a possible 3rd strike felon)......or
2) do I draw and fire (with an extreme upward angle*) and pray he doesn't reflexively pull the 4lb trigger on a cocked gun?

Keith what would you do, and suggesting we do ??????


* if I fire parallel to the floor hoping to sever the spinal column;not really sure that would work to shut his CNS instantly down, a through and through will hit the clerk.......

As best as I remember....When he cocked that hammer,
I can still see that young girls face, full of fright.

When I started my draw, he turn slightly toward his right...
The clerk move to her right and that was that as they say.

I guess, my advise would be,,,,in a situation like the OP put us in.

Just do what you think your conscious will allow you to live with.

.
 
As best as I remember....When he cocked that hammer,
I can still see that young girls face, full of fright.

When I started my draw, he turn slightly toward his right...
The clerk move to her right and that was that as they say.

I guess, my advise would be,,,,in a situation like the OP put us in.

Just do what you think your conscious will allow you to live with.

.


Seems to me that two rights corrected a wrong.
 
By the time I saw this thread some of you had already posted my intended reply. There was no mention of the robber having a gun or knife so my presumption is that none was presented in this hypothetical situation. That being the case, I would certainly not have drawn my gun, as there was no threat to me.

Now, lets look at another potential response to this scenario.
WITHOUT drawing a gun....is there no one here capable of taking down an unarmed robber(from their rear), as opposed to just letting him walk? With the scenario as it was layed out the person behind him in line would certainly have the advantage of surprise in their favor.
Capable and willing are two very different questions. If I live in an area with adequate policing, why would I insert myself in the middle of a non-violent store robbery if I’m just a customer? Good witness, you bet. Intervene in a non-violent robbery at the local quick shop - I don’t think so.
 
I want to point out that all of my comments are predicated on the idea of the assailant not being armed or only implying that he is armed. If a weapon is displayed, my assumption will be that he intends on using it and I would not hesitate to fire preemptively. In Rastoff’s hypothetical scenario, the command is given to “Drop The Weapon,” so it is assumed there is a visible weapon. In this particular case, I would agree with Dave that no command be given and the threat be neutralized immediately.
 
I'm a dinosaur I guess........

One of my FTOs was really old school, he had the ribbon with three or four oak leaf clusters.

He told me of walking in on a convenient store shotgun robbery, while off duty.

He said, "I shot him right between the ****** and ****** with that lit'l model 60.

All of my FTOs had a lot of hard bark on em.

Guess it made me have a guarded outlook as well.

.
 
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I'm a dinosaur I guess........

My


Possibly raised by dinosaurs? People who instilled a sense of right and wrong into you at an early age? People who didn’t give you a trophy for participating in sports, rather than winning? People who never made excuses for you?

Now look how you turned out, LOL!
 
As best as I remember....When he cocked that hammer,
I can still see that young girls face, full of fright.

When I started my draw, he turn slightly toward his right...
The clerk move to her right and that was that as they say.

I guess, my advise would be,,,,in a situation like the OP put us in.

Just do what you think your conscious will allow you to live with.

.

A bit of good luck there ...... or the hand of God....and sometimes that's all one gets....... gave you a clear shot.

I will say if a "bad guy" pulls the trigger once..... my preconceived notion is that he will be willing to do it again....... and "as they say" all bets are off!

It's hard to read a man's intent from the back of his head ,but cocking a hammer, after the money has been handed over, is a pretty good indication! The S is about to hit the fan!


And if I'm not first I'm likely to be the second..........................
 
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I want to point out that all of my comments are predicated on the idea of the assailant not being armed or only implying that he is armed. If a weapon is displayed, my assumption will be that he intends on using it and I would not hesitate to fire preemptively. In Rastoff’s hypothetical scenario, the command is given to “Drop The Weapon,” so it is assumed there is a visible weapon. In this particular case, I would agree with Dave that no command be given and the threat be neutralized immediately.

I missed that in my initial reading, and it changes things. Given the positioning of everyone I think I could conceal my draw and would fire preemptively as well.
 
JMO here, it's a legal, ethical and moral delima. What is legal is not always practical or prudent. Just because you can do a thing does not mean you should.

If you want to be under paid, under appreciated and over scrutinized, please attend a police academy and hire on, we can use you. If you are a LTC you carry to defend yourself, your family, and innocent others in that order.

The laws vary by locale as to the permissible use of force (and especially deadly force) to defend property and prevent the escape of a felon. Unless you are a licenced security guard it is not your buisness to use deadly force to safeguard other people's property.

A legally safe thing to say is that if you or an immediate family member is not threatened with potentially deadly harm, you should not indicate in any way that you are armed, but rather observe, and give a full account to authorities.

I say legally safe, not safe, because in the OPs senario, the schelm is committing multiple felonies, armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, armed criminal action, etc. He is likely a felon in possession of a firearm a federal felony. You are a witness to these crimes. Depending upon the sociopath's experience, and degree of cognitive function, he may decide killing potential witnesses is advantageous.

It is an incredibly subjective answer but if I believed the miscreant was going to grab the cash and run I would observe and report. If I could I would seek distance and cover.

I WOULD PROTECT MY FAMILY DESPITE ANY COST.

I WOULD NOT BE HOLDING A FIREARM WHEN POLICE ARRIVE.

I WOULD IMMEDIATELY FULLY COMPLY WITH ALL POLICE ORDERS.

OTOH, if I could clearly articulate a reasonable belief that the schelm was prepared to commit murder. I would place a round in the inverted triangle of eye-eye-mouth. Police officers have to give verbal warnings, if you can articulate an immediate mortal threat doing so is suicidal.

Remember this is just an opinion, and is worth what you paid for it.

PS: NEVER DRAW A WEAPON YOU ARE NOT PHYSICALLY AND ETHICALLY PREPARED TO FIRE, KNOWING THAT IF YOUR AIM IS TRUE YOU WILL TERMINATE A HUMAN LIFE. Know your actions will be scrutinized and you and your family will bear the consequences of your action or inaction.

It is certainly easier to let others make these decisions, this is a stage of life known as childhood. Once you get big-boy-pants you are responsible for yourself and your loved ones.
 
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