What if they don't follow your commands?

[Rpg]

Folks seem to confuse a gun with a magic wand.

Rastoff’s hypothetical smacks of a hypothetical guy who’s suffering from that confusion: the guy thinks his gun is a magic wand and believes waiving it will make the BG do as he’s told. When the guy discovers that the gun isn’t a magic wand he’s in a real fix.

If the guy understood that his gun isn’t a magic wand and that all it will do is shoot, he wouldn’t pull it unless he was willing to shoot RIGHT THEN.

 

[Mercs]

You let him walk. Of course we can’t draw in the first place unless we can fully make peace with whatever happens afterwards, and essentially have no other choice. I’ll give you two real world scenarios that are both gut wrenching. I view these videos often and highly recommend as a supplement to CCW training. First one a bystander is killed: Bystander Killed in Armed Robbery Shootout – Active Self Protection

Second one the CCL holder is killed in a situation another poster described, where the BG’s silent partner comes in from behind and ends this guys life YouTube



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Here's a completely made up scenario...
While in the check out line at the local convenient store, the guy in front of you threatens the cashier and tells her to give him the money. She hands him some money. You present your gun and tell him, "Stop, drop the weapon and get on the ground!"

To your amazement he doesn't follow your commands and starts to walk out. What now?

Here's a completely made up answer. . .

If you shouldn't be killing him, you shouldn't be drawing your gun. And it is still very dangerous - to YOU.

Not sure I know exactly what "present" means in this context. Show? Offer? Award?

 

[bigggbbruce]

You present your gun and tell him, "Stop, drop the weapon and get on the ground!"

To your amazement he doesn't follow your commands and starts to walk out. What now?

Back off cowboy, and be glad he didn't start shooting.

 

[okiegtrider]

I don't know what any of this means. Please tell us, what would you do? More importantly, what would you recommend the average gun carrying person do?

I think Keith44spl is saying that if he makes the decision to get in middle of this, his involvement does not begin with saying, "drop the gun", or anything else.

Of course if i'm wrong, I reckon he'll be along to straighten me out here.

 

[keith44spl]

I don't know what any of this means. Please tell us, what would you do? More importantly, what would you recommend the average gun carrying person do?

If one is not prepared to uses or have the intestinal fortitude to use deadly force....
Do not attempt to use an instrument of deadly force to bluff another.

To anyone that doubts their own ability or has conscientious objections to using deadly force...Don't go armed.

Every time I have drawn my sidearm, I had full intentions of discharging it, if and when necessary.

It's all opinions and conjecture until is you are the one looking over the sights.

All I can say is, I've been there and I did what I had to do.

So, if those that don't feel the need to do anything...don't do anything.

.

If it was you standing in line at the quik-sac and the guy in front of you sticks a gun in the clerk's face and cocks the hammer and she looks at you with the most helpless look you ever seen....Just what would you do?

.

 

[Rastoff]

I'm glad to hear that many here wouldn't have presented their gun. Yes, I intentionally left out any description of a weapon/tool. It's important to the scenario because I see/hear a lot of people who just assume that a threat means the bad guy has a gun or knife.

Like many here, if I didn't have a definite reason to shoot, I would have left my gun in the holster.

I brought this up because recently there have been a few discussions about exactly this. Several members here have suggested that not apprehending the criminal somehow makes us less manly. That by letting them go we are attributing to the decline in society.

Yes, I want to stop the criminal as well, but I don't want to escalate any situation where only insured property is at risk. The thread about the "brave" man is a perfect example of how things become really difficult when the bad guy doesn't follow your instructions.

Not sure I know exactly what "present" means in this context. Show? Offer? Award?

This is a good question. I try to be specific and concise with my words. I don't always succeed.

To draw a gun means to take it out of the holster. When I say "present" this means to draw and aim at the intended target. Presentation is much more than just drawing a gun. It includes intent. You can present to the target or present to the ready.

 

[lrrifleman]

I would do every thing possible to be a good, living witness. If carrying and a sidearm needs to be drawn then it will be and used to neutralize the threat to one and all.

Honestly, I am responsible for the safety of my family and myself. I am not trying to be rude, but I am being realistic. I hope like crazy that I will never find myself in such a situation.

 

[keith44spl]

I think Keith44spl is saying that if he makes the decision to get in middle of this, his involvement does not begin with saying, "drop the gun", or anything else.

Of course if i'm wrong, I reckon he'll be along to straighten me out here.

When I went through flying armed training....

I don't recall it being suggested we say "drop the matches" to someone trying to light their shoe.

.

 

[18DAI]

In that made up scenario;

A) Do not pull out your gun.

B) Be a good witness.

Regards 18DAI

 

[snuffy51]

Rule # 1-- M>Y>O>B.

 

[tenntex32]

I’m a retired cop and would not intervene in a case like this unless the victim was about to be shot. Be a good witness and keep out of it. Remember, you could miss and hit an innocent person, get yourself killed, and even if you drop the suspect you’ll probably be sued. In the final analysis it’s only someone else’s money.

So what you are saying is you would do absolutely nothing until someone was shot. Not being shot, about to be shot, and being shot is something you would leave entirely up to the perp who may make his mind up to shoot the cashier or others in about half a second?

Since we are dealing with a hypothetical situation how would you feel if the perp did go ahead and shoot the cashier as well as a few other folks on his way out the door while you stood there all self righteous telling yourself how smart you are all while holding onto your cart full of Cheetos and Fanta?

Would you do anything at this point or is it now too late for you to intervene......instead of being too early?

Just curious.

Dale

 

[okiegtrider]

Rule # 1-- M>Y>O>B.

Like Hank said.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZH2bmbUTl4[/ame]

 

[tlawler]

I’d be watching my six for all the novice CCW permitees and be ready to duck when all the bullets start flying.

 

[ColbyBruce]

Isn’t there an old saying that goes like this:

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing”

 

[nachogrande]

THAT'S BECAUSE...

A gun IS NOT A MAGIC WAND that by it's mere presence will make all that see it bow to your wishes. SURPRIZE, SURPRIZE SURPRIZE.

 

[686-380]

Doing nothing is very different than mitigating risk

Isn’t there an old saying that goes like this:

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing”

It's important to differentiate between grave, imminent danger and a nonviolent threat.

For me, the best solution is to minimize the potential for injury or death of everybody concerned. My firearm will only be drawn if myself, family or good actor is threatened with imminent, grievous harm or death.

I'll suck it up and be as good a witness as possible. That's far from doing "nothing "

 

[lrrifleman]

So what you are saying is you would do absolutely nothing until someone was shot. Not being shot, about to be shot, and being shot is something you would leave entirely up to the perp who may make his mind up to shoot the cashier or others in about half a second? ... Would you do anything at this point or is it now too late for you to intervene......instead of being too early?

Just curious.

Dale

I can truly appreciate where OldCop is coming from. Just because we may possess CWPs or are perhaps retired LEOs does not mean that we have been deputized. If we took out the perpetrator, we would be acting in the role of a vigilante.

What was emphasized in my CWP class was that we were not training to enforce the law, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones, and any incidental third party that was at risk when an immediate clear and present danger presented itself. Property and money can be replaced, but not human lives. It was emphasized when we were carrying that we couldn't be charged with a crime of omission if we didn't act in either a non-Life threatening, or life threatening, situation.

 

[tenntex32]

I’d be watching my six for all the novice CCW permitees and be ready to duck when all the bullets start flying.

Yes because according to you no CCW permitee is ever qualified enough or justified enough to do anything other than watch.

Is there any circumstance where a CCW would be justified in helping prevent a crime or assisting in apprehending a criminal once it has taken place?

Just curious.

Dale

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

To draw a gun means to take it out of the holster. When I say "present" this means to draw and aim at the intended target. Presentation is much more than just drawing a gun. It includes intent. You can present to the target or present to the ready.

The good news is that you are very clear in your own mind what you mean, and use words consistent with your definition. The bad news is that your definion is not consistent with general use by English-speaking people, even though Jeff Cooper is obviously a native speaker of English.

When said Cooper makes up a word like "hoplophobe," that is a good thing, because the word is needed, it is solidly grounded etymologically, and is not easily confused with any existing word.

When the same Cooper makes up his own peculiar use of the word "present," he is, technically speaking, ****ing up. The word already has a meaning or two, or more, several of which would fit logically into his planned use, but don't mean the same thing. This is what qualifies his misuse as a ****up.

I try to emulate Cooper's gunhandling competence. I do not emulate his diction.