What is the finish on this 1905 Military & Police?

[rct269]

The finish is known as funky old gun---or victim of its environment. I have my F-I-L's 1905, bought new in 1920, and carried in the hip pocket of his overalls for 50-60 years. The cylinder and barrel are blue----no wear, no damage to speak of. The frame looks for all the world like a blue/gray/brown speckled case hardened mess, and the grip frame is a victim of acid hands----no finish. I have no idea how the frame came to be what it is, and the cylinder and barrel did not. It all lived in the same place at the same time.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[alwslate]

Looks to me like someone might have put a coat of varnish on it to protect the steel from rusting that has sort of yellowed over the years.

 

[H Richard]

I'm thinking 50-60 years of nicotine, cooking grease smoke, etc. But it does appear pretty evenly applied so maybe shellac or varnish?

 

[glowe]

The gun is quite worn, with the checkering loss on the stocks and the large logo worn by at least half. The face of the cylinder looks like it has deep bluing, maybe protected, or oiled in the old days. I have rust browned muzzle loaders I have built, and the first few coats of browning (rusting) produce a light brown with red tint similar to these pictures, but not sure why such a finish would have been applied?

I once bought a Model 3 that was said to have been hung on a wall in an old bar for decades and there was so much nicotine and tar on it, it was red. Also looked like it was varnished, but acetone quickly removed the residue to find a brown gun with little finish left. I note that bare metal shows where such a revolver would have laid and moved on a shelf for decades, the tip of the barrel and the front of the cylinder, show obvious signs of having been slid around on a hard surface for many years.

Lastly, the knob is still in its original case colored finish, which is odd, considering that any attempts at refinishing decades ago would not have left the knob original and refinish everything else right down to the screws?? I vote for a wash-down with acetone.

 

[SS336]

Cool old revolver with family history.
I think this is some kind of finish application. The role stamps are filled in a little. See side plate. Not sharp and clean. The side plate screws, as well as the ejector knob and some areas under the grips are still blue. The trigger is brown, but the hammer is not.
I don't know what it is. Might never know. But very unusual and different. A coating of nicotine? who knows.
The answer is lost in time, but a very interesting old revolver that should be taken care of and enjoyed just for the history.

 

[s&wchad]

Here are pictures of the bottom of the barrel... no numbers. Is that unusual?

The "B" and the serial number will be on the barrel flat, over the ejector rod. Swing the cylinder open and post a photo of it.

 

[glowe]

Do you remember when?
This gun was almost certainly made in 1905. Note that it is a square butt, but does not have a trigger guard screw or rebound slide.

Everyone has their opinions on this issue, but it is a 4 screw revolver with a square butt, so almost had to have been built in 1905, shipped maybe as late as 1906. Whether is a square butt 1902 or a 4 screw 1905 is up for eternal debate. Serial number of OP's gun falls near the end of the 1902, 1st Change (sn 62,449).

For the OP, about all we know of the company's preferences for naming these models is found in catalogs of the era. Starting with the 1905 S&W catalog, all round butts were named Model 1902 and all square butts were named Model 1905. Those names appear in every pre-WWI catalog. In the 1919 catalog, names were changed to Military & Police, Round or Square butt, dropping the Model year designation.

 

[mikepriwer]

I have a 1910-shipped square butt that had spent many years hanging over a fireplace. It was brownish in color, and Dave Chicoine told me that the color was the effect of the creosote from the fireplace. He soaked in something that neutralized the creosote, and then maybe he cleaned it up a bit.

I think your gun will clean up, with some elbow grease and some cleaning products that will not damage or remove the underlying finish. There are lots of good metal cleaners that will work wonders on the gun.

The gun is an (early) 4-screw model of 1905, made in the shared serial number range of 58000 to 62450; this range of serial numbers contains both 1902's (round butt) and 1905's (square butt).

As an aside, I'm from St Louis, and and wondering what the name of the bar was, and where was it located.

Mike Priwer

 

[Waveski]

2 points:
- If the copper looking appearance were the result of long term exposure to some contaminant such as nicotine, it would be so prominent under the grip panels as it is.
- If that revolver belonged to me (I know-not my gun…) I would be in no hurry to remove that "finish" , whatever it is.
Wat too cool as is. AND -it has all us smart guys guessing.

 

[hkcavalier]

Everything points to an applied finish: the end of the ejector rod, the sideplate screws don't have it. It's under the grips, another dead giveaway.

It seems way too bright/light colored for that old gun patina. Could just be the pics too.

I don't have any experience in it, but I know jewelers that have really extensive test kits for different metals/materials. You could try that...just call ahead of time before you whip out a gun in their shop

 

[ConfidentRoad4]

Barrel Serial # Pic

Here's a picture of the barrel serial number along with that "B". Neither of us realized it was there -- thank you for the information!

I sincerely appreciate all the feedback from you guys!

 

[handejector]

What time does the bar open?


I find the OP's gun intriguing. You guys know me, so you probably know I'm an Occam's Razor kinda guy- "The simplest explanation is usually correct".
So, normally, I would be saying "Yeah, that's patina on an old blue gun" OR "Yeah, that old gun has been varnished or shellaced" OR "Yeah, that is years of nicotine and tar buildup".

BUT, I keep looking at the pics and seeing stuff that indicates some kind of applied finish- like plating of some kind.

So I talked to my FIL and he just checked it with the cylinder open and in fact it does have a B in front of the same serial number (B62252), and these match the cylinder and grip.

So it was originally blued from factory, but it looks like there is copper verdigris (learned that word from Walter Rego- thanks).

???

It has been said that occasionally a blue gun was pulled from inventory and nickeled to fill an order. I think it is far more likely that a note was simply sent to the polishing department to pull a gun slated to be blued BEFORE it was blued and send it to the plating department.

Here is a nickel gun that I have which is marked with the B. Note that this gun shipped in the same era that yours did---

It was probably a special order since Roy says "This was a single {gun} shipment to Montgomery Wards which is unusual."

So, maybe your gun shipped blued, but there is a slight possibility it did not.
So what is on this gun? I honestly don't know, but I can make a case that it is not varnish, or nicotine/tar, or just patina on the steel.

Look at these pics:

If it is nicotine/tar/smoke, how did it get under the grips in such an even coating? If it is patina on steel, why is there no rust/pitting under the grips? You can even see the coating going up into the action, and the grip pin is coated----

Look at these areas. They look like typical bubbling and flaking we sometimes see on a nickel gun:

Now look at the pitting on the cylinder flutes. Notice how clean the pits are, and how white the bare spots are. Could it be that this is a nickel gun that has been dipped in a strong chemical cleaner and/or acidic cleaner that discolored the nickel?

Maybe this was a blue gun that got nickeled later, and dipped in a harsh bath years later to remove some rust.
Or is it plated with something else?
I know I've never seen another gun that was this color.

 

[Mbrgr1]

Too many years of this.

 

[gmborkovic]

I wonder what the charge holes and bore look like?
In my circle of old collectors, that gun truly has "character"!

 

[AlHunt]

It looks like simple gloss spray paint to me.

 

[KS_SW_guy]

What time does the bar open?


Maybe this was a blue gun that got nickeled later, and dipped in a harsh bath years later to remove some rust.
Or is it plated with something else?
I know I've never seen another gun that was this color.

Now you are on to something. Note the cylinder nickel is still quite visible. My guess is being under the bar (damp environment) the blued finish failed. Maybe they sent the gun off locally to be nickeled, still many years later knowing it was a wet environment, paste wax or shellac was added to the non-working parts to prevent the nickel from failing, and it sort of worked. There was a product I used years ago on a rusty old muzzleloader called "Naval Jelly" it did remove rust but left a weird finish like this, also smelled for years. If it were mine, I would be very tempted to use brasso on a q-tip under the grips to see if the brown would come off and what lies below. My $0.02, YMMV.

 

[pwberndt]

Hi All,
I worked in a plating shop for a few years, many years ago and have plated many different items. The chrome process we used was to polish the underlying metal, flash a layer of copper, then a heavier layer of nickle. The nickle was thicker and allowed for color buffing out blemishes, it was also yellow in color. Chrome was then flashed over the nickle, giving it the traditional blue color. This looks like nickle with no chrome that has set without polishing for many years. Chrome is very thin and hard, when it peals, it is actually the nickle pealing. Someone may have put a layer of shellac over it. I'd leave it alone and enjoy the history and the story.
Paul, Ohio, USA

 

[BC38]

One additional aside to reinforce Lee's theory.
I have seen a kind of green verdigris on a nickel coin that was exposed to wet corrosive environments.
There is green stuff in the cylinder stop notches and sideplate screws (which are still shiny BTW).
The lack of case coloring on the hammer and trigger, the signs of peeling, and the washed out sideplate logo make me think it was a blued gun, refinished in nickel that has had some kind of "protective" chemical applied that yellowed and/or tarnished the nickel plating.

I'm betting a little Brasso, Mothers, or Mcguires would shine it right up. Only way to know would be to try a little on the side of the grip frame where it would be hidden by the grips. Maybe even on the inside surface of the grip frame.

 

[Notch8]

I saw a gun years ago that someone had cleaned with WD-40 and left it on untouched for years. That WD-40 hardened into a sort of shellac and turned brown, somewhat similar to the OP gun though not quite as dark. Just a thought.

 

[mfholmes]

I have an early S&W D/A that was copper washed and chrome plated after market. The chrome has worn off and now only has the old underlay of copper. Your revolver has a finish that is way too even for normal wear or aging. I would vote for the copper wash treatment.