what would you consider to be realistic effective accuracy"

[MSD2343]

A six inch diameter target at 25 yards, even at very slow rate of fire, is going to eliminate a lot of guys — many of whom are relatively dedicated shooters who consider themselves fully proficient or at least competent.

 

[petepeterson]

It was surprising , at least to me how many people could not achieve that level of competency, slow firing a 38spc 4" revolver, we were trying to get them to consistently hit a 6" diameter target at 25 yards with 6 shots in 60 seconds.

I think this would be "effective" shooting, but 6 shots in 60 seconds wouldn't exactly be "realistic."

 

[LVSteve]

I think it's time to put up some examples. I shot this lot at 12 yards from a Walther PPS M2. Started with the "no pinkie rest" mag, 6+1, slapped in the 7-rounder and continued pounding away. Cadence was about a round every 1 to 1.5 seconds, maybe quicker if I got the sight picture. Could be I got too quick, see hole in 8 ring.

Effective shooting is massively affected by what gun you shoot well. Don't ask me to repeat this with a LC9s or a Kahr CW9, I don't shoot them as well. With the PPS M2, I'm on. Can I shoot like that when the bullets are flying and everyone's screaming? I hope never to find out.

 

[BB57]

Here is my take on it. It will probably offend some people.

1) under extreme stress you don't rise to the occasion, you fall to your lowest level of *fully mastered* and *unconsciously competent* level of training. Shooting even a good qualification course once or twice a year isn't going to cut it.

That's evidenced by the high percentage of misses in law enforcement involved shootings - around 80%, although to be fair that includes low light and longer range (over 7 yards) shots, and some departments do much better (about 50% for Baltimore).

2) Consistent with that it makes sense to over train to a much tighter standard to give you a much more comfortable margin to fall before you endanger yourself and others by missing your assailant. Whoever score the first hit in a fight usually wins. Shooting the first or of the most and missing isn't what gets it done.

3) When I lived out west, our local club held monthly practical pistol matches and worked pretty hard to make the stages and scenarios realistic rather than rigidly adhering to organizational rules that often don't reflect reality.

We regularly had police officers and deputies show up to shoot. Most shot one match, did very poorly and never came back. Shooting bad made them look bad when they were self described "firearms experts".

The reality is most law enforcement officers are not firearms enthusiasts, most never fired a pistol before becoming officers and few shoot anymore than is required to maintain their qualification. That isn't a recipe for success and most qualification courses are a very poor substitute for learning to move, think and shoot under pressure and time stress.

We did however have a couple FBI agents who showed up, shot badly and then kept coming back as well as shooting at the range on a regular basis. They were both receptive to instruction and advice and were willing to practice on a regular basis. They became very competitive shooters over the course of several months.

4) There's a balance between speed and accuracy but both stem from mastering the same basics of grip, sight alignment and trigger control.

I teach shooters to start with a good grip based on proper placement of the handgun in the hand, and for someone who plans to carry, open or concealed, that grip starts from the holster. (For target shooters the gun can be properly placed in the web of the hand.)

From there the shooter brings the support hand out to meet the handgun and raises the handgun up into their line of sight, placing the front blade on target (either the top of the blade at 6 o'clock on a bullseye, or placing the front blade on a silhouette or plate on the spot you want to make bleed).

Once the front blade is on target the shooter pauses to align the front sight in the rear sight while keeping the front sight on target. That pause and subtle grip alignment is where the student begins to develop the muscle memory needed to ensure the sights are in fact all ready aligned when the handgun rises up into his / her line of sight to the target.

The shooter then maintains that sight alignment as well as consistent grip pressure while increasing pressure on the trigger until the handgun fires.

Once the student is consistently hitting the target with good accuracy in slow fire, and is finding the sights are already aligned when the handgun comes on target, he or she can begin shortening the pause to verify slight alignment.

Eventually that pause is extremely short less than 1/10th of a second and is just verifying that a) the front sight is on target; and b) the target is still there and still needs to be shot. Grip takes care of sight alignment with no conscious thought.

However, I still have students intersperse accuracy with speed drills to ensure that accuracy isn't compromised.

For a shooter properly trained in that manner consistently hitting a 6" plate at 50 yards at a rate of about 1 round per second isn't difficult and hitting a 12" plate at 100 yards at a similar rate of fire isn't any more difficult - the student just has to put a little more emphasis (a longer pause) to ensure very precise sight alignment.

5) Most handguns should demonstrate 3" at 25 yards accuracy to ensure sufficient combat accuracy, and most handguns can do that with decent ammo.

6) Once those basics are learned and firmly committed to muscle memory, teaching proper movement under fire, proper use of cover, the pros and cons of weaver versus isosceles stances and other shooting positions, shooting from the weak hand, etc can be addressed.

I do however teach tactical reloads from the start. There's no reason not to use a tactical reload every time you need to do an administrative reload. It both gives the student regular practice at tactical reloads until it's ingrained in muscle memory and it prevents the student learning one method and then having to deal with with interference effects when learning to do it differently. Again, the student starts slow to become very precise and then acquires more speed once muscle memory is developed.

——

Where shooters get it wrong is in a) accepting a low standard of accuracy as being acceptable and then b) trying to be fast, before they have learned to be precise in their shooting and in their movements.

Shooters also get it wrong by starting with a handgun that produces excessive recoil. A .22 LR is near perfect for teaching the basics as the shooter is less likely to develop a flinch, especially in a long range session, and any flinch that is developing is much easier for both student and instructor to detect. Once you move up to larger calibers the use of dummy rounds becomes important both to detect a potential flinch and to begin training the student in immediate action.

But again the temptation is for the student to go out and buy a "real" gun in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc, and then try to learn to shoot. They make it a lot harder to learn to shoot well and they acquire a lot of bad habits they'll have to break later.

 

[BB57]

I think it's time to put up some examples. I shot this lot at 12 yards from a Walther PPS M2. Started with the "no pinkie rest" mag, 6+1, slapped in the 7-rounder and continued pounding away. Cadence was about a round every 1 to 1.5 seconds, maybe quicker if I got the sight picture. Could be I got too quick, see hole in 8 ring.

Effective shooting is massively affected by what gun you shoot well. Don't ask me to repeat this with a LC9s or a Kahr CW9, I don't shoot them as well. With the PPS M2, I'm on. Can I shoot like that when the bullets are flying and everyone's screaming? I hope never to find out.

I agree with you on the handgun. There's a sweet spot between portability and ability to shoot well as speed.

This was shot with the FEG Hi Power in question. With those grips it would have been the first time I shot it after buying it. Target distance is my normal 10 yards for rapid shooting.

The first target picture is the first 15 rounds with a few controlled controlled pairs on a B-27 target:

This is the same target after 60 rounds / 4 magazines with several more controlled pairs (I tend to push the gun a bit recovering from recoil when shooting controlled pairs and double taps - it's a bad habit that tends to throw the rounds low and right):

Contrast that with 2-3 second per shot paced group from my Kimber Micro. Group size is similar but only because the rate of fire is slower. At speed, doing controlled pairs or double taps there would be plenty of 9s and probably an 8 or two.

This is a target shot at 50', fired double action at about 1- 1.5 second intervals with my 2 1/2" Model 66 with my preferred .357 Mag hollow point load, mostly to confirm the sights were more or less on target.

And six more fired DA rapid fire at 10 yards:

 

[BB57]

A six inch diameter target at 25 yards, even at very slow rate of fire, is going to eliminate a lot of guys — many of whom are relatively dedicated shooters who consider themselves fully proficient or at least competent.

The key words here are:

" Who consider themselves fully proficient or at least competent."

That's a very low bar relative to actual proficiency and competence.

Six inches at 25 yards is easily doable with even a a snub nose revolver - for a fully proficient and competent shooter.

 

[grumpyvette]

every choice you make is a compromise in some area,
example the most accurate handgun I own is a 8.375" stainless l frame 357 mag revolver, which is far less easily carried/concealed
similar to this picture
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/jan19/357mgs.jpg
3" or smaller 25 yard groups in reasonably fast repetition are easily possible

but I generally carry a 1006 10mm semi auto , mostly because of the higher capacity and more rapid reload potential, and more easily concealment, similar to this, picture below, its only marginally less accurate
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/jan18/f2f7.jpg

or if hunting I at times carry a 10mm glock, as a back-up
which is even marginally less accurate ,
but less prone to damage , or require more frequent maintenance if I get caught in the rain, frequently
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/Glock2010mm1.jpg

thus Im wondering if I make the correct choices at times,
is it smart to marginally compromise gilt edge accuracy,
for a big increase in potential firepower
example
if you were facing that Indiana mall shooter at 40 yards ???
BTW all three handguns work very well, on hog and deer hunts
10mm vs 357 - Handgun Cartridge Comparison by Ammo.com

 

[Biggfoot44]

Is this a Security Guard bashing thread ? A Security & most LE suck compared to handgun hobbiests thread ? Or discussion of what is reasonably adaquate ?

Since B-27 is frequently mentioned , keeping all rounds in 8 ring, with most within 9 ring @ 25yds , reasonably leisurely pace is Reasonably Adaquate .

More important than that is first shot hits in same area . from the holster , at moderately quick pace @ 10-15yds .

 

[jjfitch]

Card carrying Precision or PPC Expert/Master ranked shooter!

I have to call BS on this one. A very dedicated, experienced, Bullseye shooter of higher rank could probably pull some of these numbers off. But, he would be an extraordinary shot.

I have been shooting and hanging around shooting ranges frequented by shooters of all types for more than fifty years. I have seen some pretty good informal shooters. I have not yet met anyone who can walk up to the 25 yard line and shoot like this. I doubt if anyone else has. Yes, for sure there are a few people who can do it. But They are rare enough so most of us will never meet them.

As a retired B/E (Precision) and PPC competitor, my observation, yes, card carrying, Expert/Master competitors could on a good day do the above Post #12 with highly refined competition handguns and ammo!

 

[grumpyvette]

in no way am I or anyone else suggesting knocking security guards or law enforcement, , I will point out that as an instructor in the case of new untrained members of any group, who are totally unfamiliar with handguns, shooting skills among NEW first time firearm shooters, like the people I've trained , over several decades , well, the NEW TRAINEES understandably
have yet to develop the basics in firearm control and related skills, this skill acquisition, takes time, experience and in most cases a mentor.
(and it certainly helps if the person your training wants to improve not just get through the class with a minimal passing grade)
I think most of us will admit that when we started out most of us were pathetic and lacked discipline, consistency and repeatability, I know when I purchased my first handgun, hitting a coke can at 20 ft was challenging.
yet, over time that skill through constant practice & experience is vastly improved.
if you shoot competitively, on a regular basis you usually can and will improve and become more consistent.
if the competitions held regularly and its FUN to compete, in the matches especially if its not a financial burden you or anyone who really wants to improve will tend to become a better shot.
for several decades my best friend was a member of the dade county SWAT team, we constantly tried to out score each other, in matches, and both our scores improved over time.
that does not make either of us an Rob Leatham or ED Mcgivern

you might be amazed at how consistent you can get at punching holes in a 3" ORANGE STICKY DOT, IF YOU HAVE TO KICK IN TO PAY FOR LUNCH
IF YOU BOTH SHOOT AT YOUR OWN 25 YARD ORANGE STICKY DOT,
AND YOU MISSED AND HE DOESN,T.

Fluorescent Orange Colored Labels 3" Round | InstockLabels.com

the most accurate handgun I own is a S&W STAINLESS heavy barrel 357 mag similar to this picture

http://www.grumpysperformance.com/jan19/357mgs.jpg

 

[4barrel]

I can<could>hit at 25 yards with one hand but not in 60 seconds. Never tried two. Practicing hitting a can double action is a blast. You can burn a lot of ammo. I do it right and left. A good friend wonted me to sight his new S&W 52. I know people that shoot fast and hit what they are aiming at but they can't target shoot worth a dang with one hand. My son can hit stuff in the air but is not what you call a good target shooter. He is deadly on the bench. He does wear glasses and I don't other than safety glasses.

 

[smoothshooter]

This is a conversation that has to evolve with the times. It's very common to hear the statement that the majority of encounters happen at X distance, X distance typically being not very far. That statement is then used to legitimize the minimum level of accuracy or shooter/firearm efficiency.

When I hear that statement, it does befuddle my mind some and one has to ask how accurate is that statement given the times. I'm in the mindset most incidents can be avoided by simply not putting oneself in certain situations. The old adage of "nothing good happens after midnight" has some credence. Unless you have to, stay out of known trouble areas.

Given the times, an active shooter situation has to be considered. Heaven help the poor sole with their tried and true 38 snub who just happened to be at the local walmart and is forced to engage an active shooter from 3-4 aisles away. In that situation, being accurate enough to put rounds on target before they can do more harm has to be considered. Distance does allow some advantages such as cover and support, but how many of these modern firearms can be shot accurately enough to effectively conduct that lethal deterrence.

Fortunately, most bad guys are even worse shots than the cops.
I would like to know the distance at which serious hits are made by all parties during active shooter situations not counting stray shots.
Would not be surprised if almost all of them are under 15-20 yards even when one or more rifles are involved. How many times have we heard about some maniac firing off off in excess of 50 rounds and only getting a couple of hits ( Not minimizing the injuries to the victims ).

 

[smoothshooter]

This is a conversation that has to evolve with the times. It's very common to hear the statement that the majority of encounters happen at X distance, X distance typically being not very far. That statement is then used to legitimize the minimum level of accuracy or shooter/firearm efficiency.

When I hear that statement, it does befuddle my mind some and one has to ask how accurate is that statement given the times. I'm in the mindset most incidents can be avoided by simply not putting oneself in certain situations. The old adage of "nothing good happens after midnight" has some credence. Unless you have to, stay out of known trouble areas.

Given the times, an active shooter situation has to be considered. Heaven help the poor sole with their tried and true 38 snub who just happened to be at the local walmart and is forced to engage an active shooter from 3-4 aisles away. In that situation, being accurate enough to put rounds on target before they can do more harm has to be considered. Distance does allow some advantages such as cover and support, but how many of these modern firearms can be shot accurately enough to effectively conduct that lethal deterrence.

Fortunately, most bad guys are even worse shots than the cops.
I would like to know the distance at which serious hits are made by all parties during active shooter situations not counting stray shots.
Would not be surprised if almost all of them are under 15-20 yards even when one or more rifles are involved. How many times have we heard about some maniac firing off off in excess of 50 rounds and only getting a couple of hits ( Not minimizing the injuries to the victims ).

 

[smoothshooter]

This is a conversation that has to evolve with the times. It's very common to hear the statement that the majority of encounters happen at X distance, X distance typically being not very far. That statement is then used to legitimize the minimum level of accuracy or shooter/firearm efficiency.

When I hear that statement, it does befuddle my mind some and one has to ask how accurate is that statement given the times. I'm in the mindset most incidents can be avoided by simply not putting oneself in certain situations. The old adage of "nothing good happens after midnight" has some credence. Unless you have to, stay out of known trouble areas.

Given the times, an active shooter situation has to be considered. Heaven help the poor sole with their tried and true 38 snub who just happened to be at the local walmart and is forced to engage an active shooter from 3-4 aisles away. In that situation, being accurate enough to put rounds on target before they can do more harm has to be considered. Distance does allow some advantages such as cover and support, but how many of these modern firearms can be shot accurately enough to effectively conduct that lethal deterrence.

I personally have never heard of an "active shooter" shooting anyone after some regular citizen returns fire, hit or miss.
I'm sure it has happened, but it must be even more rare than an active shooter situation happening in the first place.
Am interested in examples to the contrary if anyone here has any.

I maintain that for non-law enforcement and military use, gun choice and caliber are of low importance as long as the gun will fire at least 95% of the time when needed

 

[glenwolde]

I read somewhere that (according to the author), "competent" was keeping all your shots in 10" at 10 yards. Seems like a low bar but O.K. He may have something there.

I went to an NRA Certified Pistol Instructor class. There were 10 students. To qualify as an NRA Certified Pistol Instructor you basically have to put 20 rounds into 6" at 15 yards. Only two of us passed that on the first try. The other eight required multiple tries and/or a weapon change to something easier.

"Candidate will shoot any gun of their choice, regardless of action, sights or caliber, at a blank 9 inch diameter paper target at a distance of 15 yards. Candidates will fire 20 shots from a two-handed, unsupported, standing position. Targets will be broken into two tenshot targets or four five-shot targets. Three points will be given for each scoring hit. In order for a hit to count, it must fall inside a ½" border from the edge of the plate. Shots that break the edge of the ½" border will count as hits. All scoring hits on a target must be within a 6" or less extreme spread (see below). Candidates will be allowed to shoot their own firearms if desired.

https://www.capitaldefenseinstruction.com/resources/NRA-Pistol-Instructor-Pre-Qual.pdf

The NRA thinks that's better than average I assume. Who am I to argue with the NRA?

I keep track of such things, and I can hit 6" at 25 yards better than 90% of the time. Though I usually shoot at a 4" target at 15 yards and run in the high 90's. But I've been at this on a regular basis for decades. Considering my experience I should be better. But there's nothing like 100,000 rounds of practice.

The best I ever did was 50 rounds in a row hit a 3" circle at 15 yards. That was under ideal conditions. I'm not saying I can do that on demand. But every once in a while I have a good day like that.

 

[WR Moore]

A couple of general observations after ~40 years as a handgun instructor, ~25 as a LE firearms instructor.

1. Most people think they're better shots than they are.

2. Before you diss LE/Security folks for their skill level, help out at sighting in days at your club before deer season. While there are a great many folks who are good shots and concientious hunters, there's also folks like the guy that caused me to quit helping out. He was the last guy to arrive and put a refrigerator carton at the 50 yard line. Didn't want a target to give himself an aiming point. After firing 5-6 rounds he got one hit on the carton. I suggested I put a target up and he "refine his technque a bit". "No, can't hit no targets, but you put hair on it and i'll hit it every time."

I made sure to find out where he'd be hunting so I wouldn't be in that county.

3. The B27 is a nice target (we used to call it the Paul Bunyan), but it teaches the wrong aiming point. You wouldn't intentionally gut shoot a deer. Don't do it to someone trying to harm you. A one shot per second cadence while keeping the group in a paper plate with the top edge at the neck/body line at 5-7 yards will do the job. But do practice some at longer ranges. Try and get the same cadence there too, you can learn to do that at 15 yards, but it's not gonna happen at 25 yards.

 

[4barrel]

You can have three guns exactly alike but one will target better.

 

[old tanker]

...gut shoot...someone trying to harm you...

It might not be the most tactically sound option, but leaving them lingering, waiting for the buzzards would be soul satisfying.

 

[sotexas]

38 special - 10 shots inside 2" at 25 yards .

22 LR - 10 shots inside 1" at 25 yards

45 acp - 10 shots in 3" at 25 yards .

At least those are my limitations
Gary

I can't stand that steady in my usual wind much less hold steady enough. Great shooting

 

[sotexas]

Don't ever see myself shooting 25yds in a crowded self defense situation.