What Would You Do ??

[Whitwabit]

My wife saw this article ( Target fires manager after black customer says she was racially profiled ) and asked me what I would do if a stores security guard would accost me as I was walking out to my car and tried to physically retain me with out first explaining anything much like the above article ..

Told my wife if the security guard did that from behind he may well have a pistol pointed at the middle of his chest .. Hope fully he would be talking before a shot was fired .. But there have been numerous robberies in parking lots as people walk to their cars and are accosted by a perp or two ..

What would you do ?? Have you trained for this if it were to happen .. or can you even train for a situation as this .. Has any one heard of an instance where this happened and a shot was fired or a gun was display in self defense .. I'm going to run this by some friends but wondered what any one here on the forum might do in a situation like this if it were to happen to them ..

 

[Texas Star]

One thing you'd better not do is pull a gun on two armed security guards. And you'd better look fast to see who you're drawing on and not just shoot by reflex because someone brushed against you.

Unless the guards and manager had some reasonable grounds for suspecting theft beyond the detainee's race, that looks like a potential lawsuit. It is certainly not going to be solved by a shooting in the parking lot.

The very fact that you asked this question makes me think you're a troll or just someone who has no business carrying a gun in public.

You have so many posts here that I don't think you're a troll.

 

[Whitwabit]

One thing you'd better not do is pull a gun on two armed security guards. And you'd better look fast to see who you're drawing on and not just shoot by reflex because someone brushed against you.

Unless the guards and manager had some reasonable grounds for suspecting theft beyond the detainee's race, that looks like a potential lawsuit. It is certainly not going to be solved by a shooting in the parking lot.

The very fact that you asked this question makes me think you're a troll or just someone who has no business carrying a gun in public.

You have so many posts here that I don't think you're a troll.

What ??? Not a TROLL but sounds like you are .. what would you do if 2 people came up and grab you from behind with any vocal warning ??? and you were carrying . let your self be robbed or accosted ???

My question was very in line with todays world !!

 

[Smoke]

First, let me say that I have NEVER seen a loss prevention guy randomly tackle someone from behind and they didn't do it in this case either. Generally, they approach you, identify themselves, tell you why they stopped you and ASK you to come back inside with them.

Second, know your state laws. In most states store security has the legal authority to detain you if they can clearly articulate a reasonable suspicion that you stole something or you set off the alarm. Resisting them is a crime.

Third, the really good LP guys won't stop you unless they have you cold. Most of the guys I know that do it won't initiate contact unless they can state what you stole and where it's at on your person. There's no way in Hell I'd even be in the room while a manager searched a female customer.

Finally if I were approached by store security I'd exercise my right to remain silent and wait for the police to arrive. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE would I allow myself to be handcuffed and if I'm not resisting there's no reason they should

 

[Kanewpadle]

I do not steal. If they put their hands on me, they’re toast. If they want to talk, fine. Call the police if need be. But don’t put your hands on me.

 

[Smoke]

I do not steal. If they put their hands on me, they’re toast. If they want to talk, fine. Call the police if need be. But don’t put your hands on me.

Just so you're aware in Washington they are legally authorized to physically detain you if you resist them and if you resist it becomes a felony

 

[Texas Star]

For what it's worth, Target stores near me use uniformed off duty police as guards.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Just so you're aware in Washington they are legally authorized to physically detain you if you resist them and if you resist it becomes a felony

They can detain me IF I steal. If they make a mistake it’s on them. They can deal with the consequences.

 

[Whitwabit]

For what it's worth, Target stores near me use uniformed off duty police as guards.

no uniformed store security in my area not even the target store which I was in 3 days ago !!

In fact no stores have security in uniforms in the tri county area .. only place there are police is the one Mall in town ..

Edit : and the police at the mall haven't been able to stop several fights that include 20 or more perps .. all gang related .. always seem to be on the other end or in the car patrolling the parking lots .. or on break off the premise ..

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

There is a tort called "false imprisonment" that covers this situation that would give me much more satisfaction than shooting a poor security guard and being sued by the widow. I suspect that I could get some new guns and take the wife out to dinner a few times with the proceeds. Not to mention, I would not lose my CCL and firearm.

 

[Absalom]

The OP’s premise, and some of the discussion, is not supported by anything in the article.

There is no indication of following into the parking lot, grabbing from behind or in any other way, tackling or whatever.

It simply states they “confronted” her as she was leaving. Whatever followed appears to have been clearly inappropriate, but the concern about drawing your gun seems a bit over the top.

 

[rwsmith]

We have the benefit of hindsight......

....but in spite of 'fallout' from actions it's better than anybody being shot.

 

[Smoke]

There is a tort called "false imprisonment" that covers this situation that would give me much more satisfaction than shooting a poor security guard and being sued by the widow. I suspect that I could get some new guns and take the wife out to dinner a few times with the proceeds. Not to mention, I would not lose my CCL and firearm.

I would check my state laws if I were you because if they have a reasonable suspicion that you stole something it's not false imprisonment. And I'd be willing to bet you that the Texas statute says what the Colorado one says if you resist them it's a crime

 

[Smoke]

They can detain me IF I steal. If they make a mistake it’s on them. They can deal with the consequences.

They can detain you, whether they're right or wrong, on a reasonable suspicion.

 

[Smoke]

I get a kick out of the chest beating in some of these threads

I'm going to suggest again that you know your state laws before you go toe to toe with a loss prevention guy.

In every state that I'm aware of with the exception of Massachusetts loss prevention has the legal authority to detain you and turn you over to the police pursuant to a shoplifting investigation. Also in every state that I'm aware of regardless of whether you're guilty of shoplifting or not it is a crime to resist such detention and God help you if that loss prevention guy happens to be an off duty cop with a second job.

I've never done loss prevention and I have no desire to but working in the security field I've worked with a lot of people who have. Almost every single one of the people I know that either does or has done loss prevention is extremely conversant with the exact limits of their authority. They have to be to keep their jobs for any length of time.

Also quite a few of the people that I know that do it know that a certain amount of Hands-On is part of the job, so a lot of them practice open hand and grappling skills.

A lot of the big chain stores have a pretty strict hands-off policy and as I said earlier most of the loss prevention people I know have been doing it awhile, they're good at it otherwise they wouldn't keep their jobs, and they won't even bother to stop you unless they can articulate clearly what you took and where you put it. Like " Excuse me sir I think you put a Def Leppard CD in your right coat pocket could you empty that pocket please."

Since this forum is mostly made up of a bunch of middle-aged white guys the odds of us being stopped by loss prevention are almost non-existent. That said, the best thing you can do if they stop you is ask him to call the police and tell him you're not saying anything until the police arrive. And of course if the person who approaches you is in plain clothes ask to see their credentials and manager.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I saw on "60 Minutes" several (maybe 45 years ago) a segment about Penny's plain cloths security. coming up behind and grabbing a elderly man supposedly for shoplifting. The older gentleman was white the security man was black. The "customer" collapsed with a massive heart attack. The squad and police were called. While investigating, the police checked all the packages, and the few witnesses. They found no evidence of any theft. While the man lived, after a lengthy stay in the hospital, Penny's was sued for a long list of damages. They Jury awarded the couple $6 Million (That was a huge awarding back then) The security guard/loss prevention guy was arrested for assault and did time.

As stated above, the rules very from state to state BUT: In my area, any security guard knows that is a good way to get shot. Juries in Ohio seem to side with victims of assault/self defense (more so in less urban counties!) Juries are tired of crime in Ohio, they don't care who did it and protecting yourself isn't a crime!

Ivan

PS in Ohio, Target stores/ corporation, are kind of still blacklisted over the whole "which bathroom" thing! That will hurt them in any civil court case!

 

[Fishinfool]

Just thought I'd mention that "loss prevention" officers are not police officers. Even a police officer moonlighting as such is off duty, and is not acting as a representative of his dept.

Before any physical force is used, they better be darn sure a crime has taken place. Otherwise they are opening themselves, and the establishment they represent to legal action by the accused. There is a reason most all businesses that employ "loss prevention" have specific rules against physical force unless it is justified to prevent the injury of innocent persons.

Larry

 

[BAM-BAM]

Key words (in Pa.) .... " probable cause" and " reasonable manor".......have to be met to get protection from civil or criminal liability under the statute..... there is no 'blanket immunity"

Given that I know I've not committed a crime ( will be interested in hearing their "probable cause")..... unless it's a uniformed police officer....I'm not giving up my gun (or knife)...... being handcuffed or ordered to a "back room"..... by some guy/stranger in 911 pants and a Target polo shirt.

" I'll stand right here, Call the Police; now!"

Before cell/I-phones always wondered if/when some store employee was going to ask me about the 'bulge" under my cover garment.


Can't recall the last time I saw a uniformed Police officer working store security..... can't imagine a Dept or Municipality "authorizing" it due to potential civil liability (or just defense costs)...... there is no upside to the Dept to authorize it's officers to act under color of their authority as police officers.

 

[4506517]

I'm going to give this thread 30 posts max before it is locked.

 

[Alpo]

I read this and thought, "Maybe other places, but not in MY state".

So I looked it up.

Statutes & Constitution
:View Statutes
:

Online Sunshine

> The taking into custody and detention by a law enforcement officer, merchant, merchant’s employee, farmer, or a transit agency’s employee or agent, if done in compliance with all the requirements of this subsection, shall not render such law enforcement officer, merchant, merchant’s employee, farmer, or a transit agency’s employee or agent, criminally or civilly liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, or unlawful detention.<

That sucks.

So not only can any minimum wage rent a cop with a hair up his butt because he had a fight with his old lady GRAB ME (assault) and CUFF ME (false imprisonment), but I can neither have him arrested for those two crime, or sue him in the civil court.