I can't speak for the rest of America but in Colorado there's no such thing as an off-duty police officer
What Would You Do ??
- Thread starter Whitwabit
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I can't speak for the rest of America but in Colorado there's no such thing as an off-duty police officer
I'll remember they can't use Force to detain you
Girl caught shoplifting at WinCo - YouTube
Oh wait. And if you watch the whole video she admits to stealing about halfway through it
Girl caught shoplifting at WinCo - YouTube
Oh wait. And if you watch the whole video she admits to stealing about halfway through it
Did he have probable cause to believe you shoplifted something????? Assuming you aren't actually shoplifting .........
Under the totality of the circumstances are either of those actions "reasonable"?
If his first actions are as you describe above..... I think most courts would say no.......
As I stated above the LP guy has to meet certain standards under the code to get the immunity provided for under the statute....
So this is going to be my last post in this thread. The OP asked what the proper way to deal with an encounter with loss prevention would be.
I'm going to suggest that not losing your concealed handgun permit because you assaulted a loss prevention employee while resisting detention in accordance with your state law ain't it.
Y'all enjoy your thread
I'm going to suggest that not losing your concealed handgun permit because you assaulted a loss prevention employee while resisting detention in accordance with your state law ain't it.
Y'all enjoy your thread
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Well we didn't see how it all started......the folks standing around (think "jury") certainly didn't think the actions were reasonable.....
Looking at the way the two guys were dressed..... IMHO an "innocent woman" accosted by those two in a parking lot would be more than a bit reluctant to go anywhere with them....I would be reluctant to go anywhere with them.....
In this case; her guilt like truth would be a defense
Smoke...... remember the other Posters in this thread....... are all starting from the fact that they have not committed any crime or shoplifted..... but are " physically accosted" by a Security Guard........
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All the witnesses said what you didn't see on the video was the girl taking a swing at the loss prevention officers one of them was female by the way.
Final thought, I'm 52 years old almost 53. In my entire life time I have been questioned for shoplifting exactly one time it was one week before I turned 18 and I was shoplifting.
That was enough, I learned my lesson and then never did it again. In the 36 years since that incident I've never once had anybody even suggest that I might be shoplifting.
Now the target story something wasn't right there but even so show me anywhere in the story where it says a woman was physically accosted by the loss prevention guy
HOUSTON RICK
Member
Only if they have reasonable suspicion to start with and only so long as that is maintained with the factors required for that. If they detain me because they do not like how I look, or I was "too close" to the Weber grills, or wandered their public store "too long", that is false imprisonment. If their security cameras do not clear me immediately, my empty pockets will. Take me back to the office at gunpoint (or imply or threaten physical harm if I move, or lock me in) and tell me to wait until the police arrive, or any number of variations on that, then we probably have false imprisonment.
I do not recall mentioning resistance, quite the contrary; my mission would be to be the model "prisoner". You are right, nothing is "automatic", and a case with all the elements (each with their factors) must be proven, but that is provided by the defendant if I am improperly detained. Just a "hey you" in the parking lot is nothing for either side of the argument. Maybe the situation only calls for a complaint to the CEO. Going back to the context of the conversation that I posted in; although both sides have defenses, it may be wiser to use the court system rather than your guns for something like this.
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I think the original Post....... was trying to draw out a response to what you would do if 'stopped" and "detained" by store security;knowing you've done nothing wrong...... and in most of our cases being armed.
I believe; all of the other Posters in this thread are starting with the assumption that we/they had not actually shoplifted..... as is the case in the OP and 2 or 3 posted videos..... and are trying to flee.
If a Security Guard came up to me and said "Excuse me sir......." I wouldn't be trying to flee and would engage in a dialog..... to clear up their error.
If someone looking like the two guys in the one video initiated contact by physically grabbing me in a parking lot....... (again; knowing I had not done anything wrong) I believe a court would find me well within my rights to defend myself from what I had a reasonable belief was an unprovoked attack on my person..... that could result in serious bodily injury or death.
Edit: Loved the one kid in the video...... who pulls out a pair of handcuffs "as his badge of authority".... to do what he was doing!
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Will this thread make it to 30??????
Off to Walmart for Printer Ink.......... wish me luck!!!!!!
Off to Walmart for Printer Ink.......... wish me luck!!!!!!
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The actions of those Target employees certainly sound unjustified. I think the young lady needs a good lawyer. She should wind up with a large settlement.
I have stopped a number of people over the years for shoplifting. Some of them were black. Most were white. I have grappled with a number of them and been punched a few times. It was always my employer's policy that you had to personally see them conceal the item(s) and to keep them in sight until they passed the point of checkout or you couldn't stop them. I think that's a good policy. It does allow some thieves to get away with it, but it protects the company from civil suits for false imprisonment or worse.
The policy eventually changed to the point where you cannot touch a shoplifter. You may only request that they accompany you back inside. If they refuse you are not allowed to do anything about it. Since that policy was created I no longer even try to detain them. I'll try to scare them into putting it back because they know they've been made, but I will go no further. What's the point? If they refuse to comply all I can do is watch them walk away. At my present age I'm not even sure I'd want to fight them any more.
I signed the AFA Target boycott pledge a couple of years back, so I no longer shop there. The local Targets used to have uniformed security. They were not off duty police officers, though.
The only time I know of that I was ever suspected of shoplifting (but not detained) was in a Target store about twenty-five years ago. I had picked up a pair of pants on my lunch hour. I had them draped over my arm, and I was killing time until I had to get back to work about four blocks away by just walking around the store looking at this and that. Suddenly from behind me I hear some one say, "He doesn't have anything but some pants." I turned around to see a uniformed security guy. He smiled sheepishly at me, said nothing, and quickly exited the area. He obviously knew I'd heard him. I just smiled and thought their loss prevention people were pretty incompetent. Then I paid for my pants and went back to work.
I have stopped a number of people over the years for shoplifting. Some of them were black. Most were white. I have grappled with a number of them and been punched a few times. It was always my employer's policy that you had to personally see them conceal the item(s) and to keep them in sight until they passed the point of checkout or you couldn't stop them. I think that's a good policy. It does allow some thieves to get away with it, but it protects the company from civil suits for false imprisonment or worse.
The policy eventually changed to the point where you cannot touch a shoplifter. You may only request that they accompany you back inside. If they refuse you are not allowed to do anything about it. Since that policy was created I no longer even try to detain them. I'll try to scare them into putting it back because they know they've been made, but I will go no further. What's the point? If they refuse to comply all I can do is watch them walk away. At my present age I'm not even sure I'd want to fight them any more.
I signed the AFA Target boycott pledge a couple of years back, so I no longer shop there. The local Targets used to have uniformed security. They were not off duty police officers, though.
The only time I know of that I was ever suspected of shoplifting (but not detained) was in a Target store about twenty-five years ago. I had picked up a pair of pants on my lunch hour. I had them draped over my arm, and I was killing time until I had to get back to work about four blocks away by just walking around the store looking at this and that. Suddenly from behind me I hear some one say, "He doesn't have anything but some pants." I turned around to see a uniformed security guy. He smiled sheepishly at me, said nothing, and quickly exited the area. He obviously knew I'd heard him. I just smiled and thought their loss prevention people were pretty incompetent. Then I paid for my pants and went back to work.
The Winco employee with the handcuffs was a female so there's that.
Plus, if you read the news report the shop lifter was originally charged with felony robbery because she fought with the LPs
Prosecutor: WinCo shoplifting suspect won’t face felony charges | The Columbian
Smoke; LOL being a 'female" is no longer relevant in our world.....
he/she/it could be any one of "59 varieties" these days...... all are equal in the eyes of ....... well someone....... Just thought it was funny she was waving around the cuffs as if they were a Police badge and explained who she was...and her authority to do what she and her partner were doing.
Again my comments were directed to members here ..... who aren't shoplifting and are "stopped"......certainly not going to hand "some dude/babe" claiming to be a LP my gun..... or get handcuffed.
I know lots of people who, when accused of a crime, resisted arrest. Even when the original charge ended up being dismissed, most people ultimately pleaded guilty to resisting arrest, which you cannot do, regardless of the basis of the original charge . . .
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
And I think that is a completely implausible scenario. In the case of the girl, the article makes clear that she had assaulted the security guards before the bystander started filming. The only mistake here was tactical: The moment she became agressive, the guards should have held her in place and called the police, instead of scraping the sidewalk with her trying to move her inside. As the article makes clear, in the end the authorities considered the girl the only perpetrator in this “outrage”.
Of course she was guilty to begin with. But you all should remember, as some have already alluded to, no matter how righteous you may feel about “not letting anyone grab you” and such, if you go for your gun because you’re innocent, and the situation should turn into a bloody cluster-you-know-what, you will NOT be the hero even if you ultimately are cleared.
On a side note, most people vastly overestimate their close quarters defensive skills just because they can hit stuff at the range on Saturdays. If you over-react when a security guard (some are actually trained) has already grabbed you, you’re just as likely to end up hurt as other people, even if your gun is the only one in play.
Years ago, I received a call to go to Wal-Mart where the loss prevention team had caught a shoplifter. Upon arrival, the LPT had a man on the ground by his vehicle. The man was complaining that his leg was broken, so I called the paramedics.
The LPT said that the man had left through the garden department and the door greater had asked him to show his receipt. The man refused and continued to his vehicle. The LPT was alerted and they confronted him at the car. He again refused to show his receipt. One of the LPT members started taking the items out of the car and the man tried to stop him. He was tackled by the LPT and the man's leg was injured.
The man claimed that he had paid for everything and that the LPT was taking his property. I asked to see his receipt, which he handed to me!!! The man said that there were no signs posted that required him to show his receipt to anyone and that he was tired of being hassled every time he went to Wal-Mart.
Last I heard, the shopper was suing Wal-Mart. AND, there were signs posted requiring folks to show their receipts if asked. These went up REAL QUICK LIKE.
The LPT said that the man had left through the garden department and the door greater had asked him to show his receipt. The man refused and continued to his vehicle. The LPT was alerted and they confronted him at the car. He again refused to show his receipt. One of the LPT members started taking the items out of the car and the man tried to stop him. He was tackled by the LPT and the man's leg was injured.
The man claimed that he had paid for everything and that the LPT was taking his property. I asked to see his receipt, which he handed to me!!! The man said that there were no signs posted that required him to show his receipt to anyone and that he was tired of being hassled every time he went to Wal-Mart.
Last I heard, the shopper was suing Wal-Mart. AND, there were signs posted requiring folks to show their receipts if asked. These went up REAL QUICK LIKE.
OMCHamlin
US Veteran
Okay, you guys BOTH step back from the edge for a minute! Look, I carry as often as I possibly can, and I can tell both of you this, if I was walking to my car and was grabbed from behind with out any verbal challenge, I would at LEAST semi-draw (gun in hand, firing grip, still in pocket or under shirt), and it had better be a uniformed security or be displaying a badge by the time I turn around. Any less display or communication would be a poor way to confront a shoplifter, and it could very well be a real shame for both of us.
I realize that some newer folks do troll forums like this with those "what if" posts, but this is S&W, I know we try to have a more civil discourse then that. Let's just assume this is a legit question and proceed in that light?
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DeathGrip
US Veteran
You mean the guy that could hardly hold a 15 year old girl in a full nelson?
Ill trained and looking for a law suit.
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