What Would You Do ??

[snubbyfan]

Reminds me of the time I was going for a midnight hike on a beautiful moonlit trail, was racially profiled for my dark skin and long hair and arrested for being a drug trafficker. Even though the were no drugs on me, in my car and I was not under the influence of anything.

Another time I was pulled over by four police cruisers while riding my bicycle around the block while visiting my mother.

I was also stopped, by the police while taking my mother's trash down to the curb.

 

[BAM-BAM]

And I think that is a completely implausible scenario. In the case of the girl, the article makes clear that she had assaulted the security guards before the bystander started filming. The only mistake here was tactical: The moment she became agressive, the guards should have held her in place and called the police, instead of scraping the sidewalk with her trying to move her inside. As the article makes clear, in the end the authorities considered the girl the only perpetrator in this “outrage”.

Of course she was guilty to begin with. But you all should remember, as some have already alluded to, no matter how righteous you may feel about “not letting anyone grab you” and such, if you go for your gun because you’re innocent, and the situation should turn into a bloody cluster-you-know-what, you will NOT be the hero even if you ultimately are cleared.

On a side note, most people vastly overestimate their close quarters defensive skills just because they can hit stuff at the range on Saturdays. If you over-react when a security guard (some are actually trained) has already grabbed you, you’re just as likely to end up hurt as other people, even if your gun is the only one in play.

As I stated earlier...... the news story prompted the OPs wife to ask; "What would you do if........" So the facts of the original news story really don't apply to how the OP or you would react.

Remember you have not shoplifted and are carrying a concealed handgun.

So let me ask you; what would you do if two "actors"; looking like the two in the video..... came up and grabbed you from behind ( without alerting you and identifying themselves) in a shopping mall/Walmart parking lot.. remember .....you have not committed a crime; are not fleeing a crime...... merely returning/walking to your car.


See my Post #30 for my response................

As an aside..... there have been innumerable threads here about "acting to protect a third party you see being attacked". In the video (in progress) it looked like two "guys" were beating the ------ out of the girl (14/15). NO uniforms, shirts with store logo or anything to identify them as anything but a couple of street punks. Many of our more gung-ho members here might have pulled their gun on the two..... not knowing all the facts.

 

[Fishinfool]

Quote:


Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post

Just thought I'd mention that "loss prevention" officers are not police officers. Even a police officer moonlighting as such is off duty, and is not acting as a representative of his dept.

Smoke:
I can't speak for the rest of America but in Colorado there's no such thing as an off-duty police officer


Fishinfool:

My point being, yes you are on duty while being off duty, and are usually covered by your department if you make an off duty arrest and mistakes are made. BUT, if you are off duty, and in the paid employee of someone else, you better have your ducks in a row before making an arrest, as there are a lot of departments that will not spend the money and resources to defend you if you make a bad call.

Larry
__________________

 

[Smoke]

So let me ask you; what would you do if two "actors"; looking like the two in the video..... came up and grabbed you from behind ( without alerting you and identifying themselves) in a shopping mall/Walmart parking lot.. remember .....you have not committed a crime; are not fleeing a crime...... merely returning/walking to your car.

And it's been said over and over and ever the odds of a legitimate loss prevention employee grabbing you like that are astronomically against it happening

As an aside..... there have been innumerable threads here about "acting to protect a third party you see being attacked". In the video (in progress) it looked like two "guys" were beating the ------ out of the girl (14/15). NO uniforms, shirts with store logo or anything to identify them as anything but a couple of street punks. Many of our more gung-ho members here might have pulled there gun on the two..... not knowing all the facts.

Again this only happens if you change the actual facts. The LP at Winco didn't wait till Mozell Van Dugar got halfway across the parking lot, they stopped her right outside the store. They said they were LP over and over and over. They were clearly trying to return her to the store AND there were 3 or 4 OTHER Winco employees around them.

But I guess trolls gotta troll

 

[BAM-BAM]

And it's been said over and over and ever the odds of a legitimate loss prevention employee grabbing you like that are astronomically against it happening




Again this only happens if you change the actual facts. The LP at Winco didn't wait till Mozell Van Dugar got halfway across the parking lot, they stopped her right outside the store. They said they were LP over and over and over. They were clearly trying to return her to the store AND there were 3 or 4 OTHER Winco employees around them.

But I guess trolls gotta troll

No need to be a smart ---- ; it's clear our posts have been like two ships passing in the night; you are talking about what's in the video and news story w/ the benefit of 20/20 hindsight (ie. knowing the parties resisting/recorded were guilty and trying to flee). I'm talking about the OP question..... "What would "you" do if........"

I would hope "LP"s are well trained..... but then again there have been many instances were even well trained Police officers have not followed proper procedures or controlled their temper..... and have faced criminal and civil liability. So to "assume" that a semi-trained " "LP" will always act properly and in accordance with the law will in the long run .....is surely going to make a ''***-out of- u- and- me"...... see what I did there?

I assessed/commented on the videos as if I'd walked onto the scene when it started.....without the benefit of reading the two articles.... only having the knowledge that a 'reasonable man" would possess walking onto the scene at the time of the incident.

Both videos seem to show the "LP"s using excessive force in detaining a person for what is a 'Summary offense" (less than $150) in Pa. To have to use that level of force on either the girl (2 on 1) or man (3 on 1)..... to a reasonable man would indicate poor,little or no training. Let go for punitive damages..........

FWIW; My best guess is that 99% of Americans have no idea what a "LP" or "Loss Prevention" is.... so yelling it out really isn't much help/or reasonably helps to identify them as "Security Guards" to most citizens.

As for trolling.... I've been here 12 years; w/ more than a couple of posts........ and am a practicing attorney in Pa.... and at one time had a 30 man armed (Act 235) & uniformed Hospital Security Dept. reporting to me...... I trained & qualified with them for 7 years...... so I have some background.

To all "I am an attorney but not your attorney" and my comments are not intended as legal advice.

 

[Absalom]

.....
I assessed/commented on the videos as if I'd walked onto the scene when it started.....without the benefit of reading the two articles.... only having the knowledge that a 'reasonable man" would possess walking onto the scene at the time of the incident.
.....

Even applying the “reasonable man” standard and assuming you walked onto the scene as you say, I’m still not seeing the remotest justification for displaying a weapon or responding or intervening with force.

In all cases, a person is simply being prevented from leaving or being restrained after resisting attempts to prevent them. In the situation where the girl is dragged, inappropriate as that may be, she is forced toward and into the store full of more people.

Anyone who interprets that as anything but what is is cannot lay claim to be a “reasonable man”.

And if you start changing the scenario enough to create an environment where a misunderstanding and a perceived threat becomes conceivable (let’s say, the guards wear dark hoodies and stop you after dark in the parking lot), it becomes a pointless fantasy debate.

 

[BAM-BAM]

In all cases, a person is simply being prevented from leaving or being restrained after resisting attempts to prevent them. In the situation where the girl is dragged, inappropriate as that may be, she is forced toward and into the store full of more people.


Excuse me where did I say "I'd display a weapon and intervene with force" I said some here based on past threads would...............

Look at the reaction of the people present.................. ya ..... we're just dragging a teenage girl into a building for her own good.

Reminds me of an old Jody Foster movie..........

You can't react based on already knowing she was a shoplifter and resisting detainment.


This thread is way past stupid........... Like Smoke I'm out of here.

 

[Whitwabit]

As I stated earlier...... the news story prompted the OPs wife to ask; "What would you do if........" So the facts of the original news story really don't apply to how the OP or you would react.

Remember you have not shoplifted and are carrying a concealed handgun.

So let me ask you; what would you do if two "actors"; looking like the two in the video..... came up and grabbed you from behind ( without alerting you and identifying themselves) in a shopping mall/Walmart parking lot.. remember .....you have not committed a crime; are not fleeing a crime...... merely returning/walking to your car.


See my Post #30 for my response................

As an aside..... there have been innumerable threads here about "acting to protect a third party you see being attacked". In the video (in progress) it looked like two "guys" were beating the ------ out of the girl (14/15). NO uniforms, shirts with store logo or anything to identify them as anything but a couple of street punks. Many of our more gung-ho members here might have pulled their gun on the two..... not knowing all the facts.

Think you !~ you asked my question better then I had worded it .. There have been several grab and run's over the past year .. and my wife wondered how I would react or someone else with a carry permit and is armed would react to a situation where you were grab by security with no verbal warning or any type of identifying clothing or badge ..

 

[Whitwabit]

Reminds me of the time I was going for a midnight hike on a beautiful moonlit trail, was racially profiled for my dark skin and long hair and arrested for being a drug trafficker. Even though the were no drugs on me, in my car and I was not under the influence of anything.

Another time I was pulled over by four police cruisers while riding my bicycle around the block while visiting my mother.

I was also stopped, by the police while taking my mother's trash down to the curb.

I have been pulled over 4 times because of profiling .. Not the color of my skin but my long hair and the fact I went to work at 3 AM .. so driving anytime right after the bars close at 1:30 your looked at like you may have been drinking .. Everytime a new cop got on that part of town that I drove thru to get to my job I would get pulled over ..

 

[Smoke]

Think you !~ you asked my question better then I had worded it .. There have been several grab and run's over the past year .. and my wife wondered how I would react or someone else with a carry permit and is armed would react to a situation where you were grab by security with no verbal warning or any type of identifying clothing or badge ..

So what you're asking is what if some random person attacked you from behind in the Walmart parking lot.


Simple, you defend yourself

 

[keith44spl]

TS,

It's one thing to disagree....It's another to be so darn disagreeable, all the time.


.

 

[Roadtrash]

I wish I had long hair, in fact I wish I had hair.

 

[ditrina]

This got so out of hand it ain't funny..

We're done