http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/98508-380-load-calling-erich.html
Here is a very detailed and informative thread on this topic
Here is a very detailed and informative thread on this topic
What's in your .380?
- Thread starter MrJT
- Start date
labworm
US Veteran
Whatever is on sale.
.380, .390, whatever it takes.
BigCityChief
Member
Cor-Bon DPX .380
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mgriffin
Member
Hornady Critical Defense.......
hatchdog
Member
Buffalo Bore +p 100 grain flat point hardcast! Kahr P380.
Harkrader
Member
Bersa Thunderererer, fist choice.
PPK is a distant second, even if James Bond was able to shoot a bad guy off a roof at 100 feet, at night, from the hip.
Cob-Bon DPX; And, like "Protected One":Hornady Critical Defense, Gold Dots.
I agree with those who note it's a "social distances" round, so while I think its effectiveness is diminished by winter clothing in WI, my plan is multiple shots including one or more to the head.
One of our sons is professional military. When jogging, he carries the LCP or PPK and uses several of the premium hollow points. He carries the gun(s) mainly for protection from dogs.
Another son is a police officer and never carries less than the compact Glock 9mm. He loads it with whatever his agency issues.
In any case, for me the round is a distant second to a compact 9mm, or Sig 239/357Sig.
PPK is a distant second, even if James Bond was able to shoot a bad guy off a roof at 100 feet, at night, from the hip.
Cob-Bon DPX; And, like "Protected One":Hornady Critical Defense, Gold Dots.
I agree with those who note it's a "social distances" round, so while I think its effectiveness is diminished by winter clothing in WI, my plan is multiple shots including one or more to the head.
One of our sons is professional military. When jogging, he carries the LCP or PPK and uses several of the premium hollow points. He carries the gun(s) mainly for protection from dogs.
Another son is a police officer and never carries less than the compact Glock 9mm. He loads it with whatever his agency issues.
In any case, for me the round is a distant second to a compact 9mm, or Sig 239/357Sig.
GD's in my BG.
RMC1
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2015
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 9
I load my own. I use 90 gr XTP and they chrony out of my P238 at just under 1000 fps. I wasn't at max load yet and I'm sure my next batch will be closer to 1100 fps.
I found this interesting to watch.
http://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts
I found this interesting to watch.
http://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts
I tend to carry whatever's either available in the training/qual inventory when I'm loading a gun and magazines, or whatever I can find at a local cop shop/ammo distributor for relatively decent cost ... presuming it all feeds, fires & functions in my LCP.
For the time being, that pretty much means I have boxes of Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Sabre and Winchester T-Series. (I reloaded my LCP at home the other day, and since I didn't want to walk out to the garage cabinets to get more Rem GS, I reloaded with a box closer at hand, in the house, which was Speer GDHP.)
I also have some Win STHP and some FP ball, but I don't generally load those for carry roles.
Why don't I commonly carry ball ammo?
Well, I'm not trying to make my .380 into something it's not (meaning it's not a .38 Spl nor a 9mm), and I understand there's a tradeoff in balancing JHP with ball ammo for defensive carry, at least when it comes to balancing the advantages and disadvantages, which includes the potential for expansion and/or potential penetrative performance.
I realize there's always going to be a possible risk of hitting an attacker's intervening limbs in a close range shooting incident, and that a JHP, if it expands, may not perforate and go on to enter the torso, and to a sufficient depth needed to reach and damage critical tissues, structures and organs, hopefully causing quick incapacitation, or at least a cessation of the attacker's voluntary actions involving the threat of imminent deadly force.
Ditto an oblique angle which puts heavy bony structures in front of the bullet's path.
Well, TANSTAAFL, folks.
I remember a shooting where a 180gr .40 JHP round hit an attacker's arm, failed to penetrate the arm ... and was deflected up the humerus, coming to rest in the shoulder capsule. No guarantees for what happens when bullets hit flesh and bone.
I remember a couple other shootings, where .380's were involved. Those were back at the end of the 80's, and if I recall, both involved the use of generic ball ammo.
In one, some .380 rounds were fired into a house from a car (driveby). We found that some rounds had not only entered the front living room through the front window and wall, but had then gone on to enter the wall at the other side of the living room. Nobody had been hit or injured, and I left the scene to the evidence tech to process. I don't remember hearing if any rounds had gone on to enter the room on the other side of the far living room wall.
In the other .380 shooting, a single bullet was fired inside a commercial building. It passed through a clip board hanging on an exterior wall, passing through the wall/door-framing behind it, exiting the outside wall and going on to hit the someone in the spine. That person became a paraplegic.
I'm well aware of the opinions of respected people in the firearms training and ballistics research fields when it comes to the relatively 'low powered' .380 ACP. In the general subject of handguns serving in the role of dedicated defensive weapons, the .380 is a further compromise in an already existing range of compromises (handguns, in general).
If I didn't want something that would fit into the tighter & shorter jeans pockets in which I can't carry one of my 5-shot J's, I'd not even have bought my LCP.
For my anticipated needs, I'm still willing to commonly choose JHP's over ball for everyday carry roles, even if that means some lessened potential for penetration depth in some circumstances.
Perforations (over-penetration) of an intended threat target, whether resulting from solid COM or peripheral anatomical hits, are things which concern me ... but, so do complete misses of an intended threat target.
One of the nicer things about newer production and designed .380's is that they seem to be better able to reliably feed hollowpoints, which isn't something that was commonly said about many .380's in the 20th century.
I'd follow whatever local legal and/or policy restrictions might be involved, and then go with whatever was available which also fed & functioned optimally in my .380's (I just ordered a stainless LCP), and worry more about running the little gun safely, accurately, controllably and effectively. It is what it is, and it's a .380 ACP.
For the time being, that pretty much means I have boxes of Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Sabre and Winchester T-Series. (I reloaded my LCP at home the other day, and since I didn't want to walk out to the garage cabinets to get more Rem GS, I reloaded with a box closer at hand, in the house, which was Speer GDHP.)
I also have some Win STHP and some FP ball, but I don't generally load those for carry roles.
Why don't I commonly carry ball ammo?
Well, I'm not trying to make my .380 into something it's not (meaning it's not a .38 Spl nor a 9mm), and I understand there's a tradeoff in balancing JHP with ball ammo for defensive carry, at least when it comes to balancing the advantages and disadvantages, which includes the potential for expansion and/or potential penetrative performance.
I realize there's always going to be a possible risk of hitting an attacker's intervening limbs in a close range shooting incident, and that a JHP, if it expands, may not perforate and go on to enter the torso, and to a sufficient depth needed to reach and damage critical tissues, structures and organs, hopefully causing quick incapacitation, or at least a cessation of the attacker's voluntary actions involving the threat of imminent deadly force.
Ditto an oblique angle which puts heavy bony structures in front of the bullet's path.
Well, TANSTAAFL, folks.
I remember a shooting where a 180gr .40 JHP round hit an attacker's arm, failed to penetrate the arm ... and was deflected up the humerus, coming to rest in the shoulder capsule. No guarantees for what happens when bullets hit flesh and bone.
I remember a couple other shootings, where .380's were involved. Those were back at the end of the 80's, and if I recall, both involved the use of generic ball ammo.
In one, some .380 rounds were fired into a house from a car (driveby). We found that some rounds had not only entered the front living room through the front window and wall, but had then gone on to enter the wall at the other side of the living room. Nobody had been hit or injured, and I left the scene to the evidence tech to process. I don't remember hearing if any rounds had gone on to enter the room on the other side of the far living room wall.
In the other .380 shooting, a single bullet was fired inside a commercial building. It passed through a clip board hanging on an exterior wall, passing through the wall/door-framing behind it, exiting the outside wall and going on to hit the someone in the spine. That person became a paraplegic.
I'm well aware of the opinions of respected people in the firearms training and ballistics research fields when it comes to the relatively 'low powered' .380 ACP. In the general subject of handguns serving in the role of dedicated defensive weapons, the .380 is a further compromise in an already existing range of compromises (handguns, in general).
If I didn't want something that would fit into the tighter & shorter jeans pockets in which I can't carry one of my 5-shot J's, I'd not even have bought my LCP.
For my anticipated needs, I'm still willing to commonly choose JHP's over ball for everyday carry roles, even if that means some lessened potential for penetration depth in some circumstances.
Perforations (over-penetration) of an intended threat target, whether resulting from solid COM or peripheral anatomical hits, are things which concern me ... but, so do complete misses of an intended threat target.
One of the nicer things about newer production and designed .380's is that they seem to be better able to reliably feed hollowpoints, which isn't something that was commonly said about many .380's in the 20th century.
I'd follow whatever local legal and/or policy restrictions might be involved, and then go with whatever was available which also fed & functioned optimally in my .380's (I just ordered a stainless LCP), and worry more about running the little gun safely, accurately, controllably and effectively. It is what it is, and it's a .380 ACP.
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Carry gun - Sig P238.
Summer
Round in the chamber and top round in the mag - Win Ranger T 95 gr JHP
Next 5 rounds - Buffalo Bore 100gr+P hard cast.
Winter - all Buffalo Bore hard cast
Summer
Round in the chamber and top round in the mag - Win Ranger T 95 gr JHP
Next 5 rounds - Buffalo Bore 100gr+P hard cast.
Winter - all Buffalo Bore hard cast
This thread, and a similar one running on another forum, sort of compel me to offer a strictly personal comment about choosing ammunition.
It's NOT directed at anyone in particular in this (or the other ) thread, so please, nobody take it personally. Nobody has to feel as though they need to defend their choice against my personal comment, okay?
Anyway, although I used to be an avid handloader and favored Magnum revolver cartridges (the 'Ruger ONLY' section of the older handloading books my dad and I used were really dog-eared), and I had a place at the table serving up some of the older custom/boutique ammunition in the 70's & 80's ... the idea of custom hot-rodded loads offered by small custom ammo companies no longer appeals to me.
I could offer some conjecture involving the Big Name ammo companies having the financial wherewithal (and motivation, to secure contracts) and ability to do ongoing, large-scale testing for QC. Also having the ability and motivation to keep representative exemplars of production runs on hand (if needed for court), and the potential ability to provide people from within their engineering depts, if necessary for some court testimony. How about the designers of the actual bullets used maybe having more background knowledge and experience in how to most effectively utilize the design and velocity window constraints of the bullets they designed?
The reasons I generally prefer not to stray away from the big names in American ammo when I need defensive ammo, though?
I like better availability and cost (I no longer order ammo online, but that's another subject), and I like it to happen locally.
If I'm trying to somehow use some cutting-edge, hot-rodded custom load in order to feel more confident about some particular gun and/or load ... my concern is that perhaps I'm not really choosing the right tools for the task in the first place.
I've nothing against looking to optimize some major maker carry ammo ... like using +P, or some limited +P+ loads, for example, or opting for the most modern hollowpoint designs ... but I don't want to start slipping down that slope and think I can (necessarily must?!?) make a minimal caliber "better" by really fuel-injecting or super-charging the ammo.
I'd rather pick a different and/or more capable caliber, from the get-go. If I start feeling like I've got to feed it some limited availability high-cost, super-duper custom ammo, maybe I'm getting perilously close to fooling myself and achieving a questionable sense of self confidence.
It's still a .380 ACP.
It's NOT directed at anyone in particular in this (or the other ) thread, so please, nobody take it personally. Nobody has to feel as though they need to defend their choice against my personal comment, okay?
Anyway, although I used to be an avid handloader and favored Magnum revolver cartridges (the 'Ruger ONLY' section of the older handloading books my dad and I used were really dog-eared), and I had a place at the table serving up some of the older custom/boutique ammunition in the 70's & 80's ... the idea of custom hot-rodded loads offered by small custom ammo companies no longer appeals to me.
I could offer some conjecture involving the Big Name ammo companies having the financial wherewithal (and motivation, to secure contracts) and ability to do ongoing, large-scale testing for QC. Also having the ability and motivation to keep representative exemplars of production runs on hand (if needed for court), and the potential ability to provide people from within their engineering depts, if necessary for some court testimony. How about the designers of the actual bullets used maybe having more background knowledge and experience in how to most effectively utilize the design and velocity window constraints of the bullets they designed?
The reasons I generally prefer not to stray away from the big names in American ammo when I need defensive ammo, though?
I like better availability and cost (I no longer order ammo online, but that's another subject), and I like it to happen locally.
If I'm trying to somehow use some cutting-edge, hot-rodded custom load in order to feel more confident about some particular gun and/or load ... my concern is that perhaps I'm not really choosing the right tools for the task in the first place.
I've nothing against looking to optimize some major maker carry ammo ... like using +P, or some limited +P+ loads, for example, or opting for the most modern hollowpoint designs ... but I don't want to start slipping down that slope and think I can (necessarily must?!?) make a minimal caliber "better" by really fuel-injecting or super-charging the ammo.
I'd rather pick a different and/or more capable caliber, from the get-go. If I start feeling like I've got to feed it some limited availability high-cost, super-duper custom ammo, maybe I'm getting perilously close to fooling myself and achieving a questionable sense of self confidence.
It's still a .380 ACP.
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A couple other thoughts.
Rather than get distracted and perhaps excessively worried about shallow penetration with a JHP that may expand, I try to remember a couple of potential attributes for a JHP, whether it expands or not.
First, if it does expand/deform, that means some degree of increased potential for cutting and severing critical tissues or organs. Ball profile bullets have sometimes been observed to have pushed things aside, lacking the sharp edges of hollowpoints to act as a cutting mechanism.
Secondly, even if the hollowpoint doesn't expand (mushroom, etc), it's still got the edge of its nose cavity, which might act as a cutting mechanism, being different than a smooth RN or a smooth FP with rounded edges. (If it doesn't expand, it might revert to ball/FMJ-like penetration, though, or have the nose cavity catch on something and get deflected, meaning bullets can sometimes do strange and unpredictable things when hitting different things.)
Another potential consideration for using one of the assorted high quality hollowpoints is that some of the more expensive, 'premium-type' loads may be made using some better components, maybe to tighter QC standards (not being churned out for 'target use').
Rather than get distracted and perhaps excessively worried about shallow penetration with a JHP that may expand, I try to remember a couple of potential attributes for a JHP, whether it expands or not.
First, if it does expand/deform, that means some degree of increased potential for cutting and severing critical tissues or organs. Ball profile bullets have sometimes been observed to have pushed things aside, lacking the sharp edges of hollowpoints to act as a cutting mechanism.
Secondly, even if the hollowpoint doesn't expand (mushroom, etc), it's still got the edge of its nose cavity, which might act as a cutting mechanism, being different than a smooth RN or a smooth FP with rounded edges. (If it doesn't expand, it might revert to ball/FMJ-like penetration, though, or have the nose cavity catch on something and get deflected, meaning bullets can sometimes do strange and unpredictable things when hitting different things.)
Another potential consideration for using one of the assorted high quality hollowpoints is that some of the more expensive, 'premium-type' loads may be made using some better components, maybe to tighter QC standards (not being churned out for 'target use').
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I have always carried Winchester Silvertips because they've the been 100% reliable in my P232 - I had trouble with Hydrashoks. Though I don't carry my P232 that often, I am contemplating a mix of Silvertip and FMJ.
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cmort666
Member
I don't currently own a .380, but when I owned a Walther PPK/S, it kept Winchester Silvertips in it.
I would NEVER carry FMJs for self-defense. If I didn't think the gun would feed with JHPs, I simply wouldn't carry it.
I'm thinking about getting a blued PPK in .380. If I get one, I won't be carrying FMJs.
I would NEVER carry FMJs for self-defense. If I didn't think the gun would feed with JHPs, I simply wouldn't carry it.
I'm thinking about getting a blued PPK in .380. If I get one, I won't be carrying FMJs.
lmacrichter
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2014
- Messages
- 202
- Reaction score
- 45
There is nothing in my BG. It is not nearly reliable enough to carry anywhere except maybe to the range in a bag.
Really?
Either send it back (under warranty) until they resolve whatever's not letting it normally function as designed, and/or use better quality ammunition ... or, if it's a matter of a small gun being used in large hands, identify whatever might be happening relative to your grip technique (that's interfering with normal slide run/speed) and correct it. (Then again, I've seen some guys with really large hands who just couldn't handle and manipulate the itty bitty .380's, so they don't own/use them.)
Sure, I've had to replace a broken firing pin in an early production S&W BG380 for one of our guys, and another guy got one with a magazine catch problem (returned for repair), but all the rest of the ones I've seen our folks using, and have tried out on our range myself, have run normally (using American made ammo).
Even the guy with the BG380 in which I replaced the firing pin has had fine function with his.
Now, I recall one of the S&W folks mentioning that they had to correct an early problem with how some hammers had been made (I think it was), and with how the integral laser was secured in the frame, but the new guns seem to producing a lot of satisfied owner feedback.
Now that they've made the M&P branded Bodyguard 380, sans laser, I was seriously thinking of ordering one through a LE dealer. However, at the last minute I decided to stay with the slightly smaller LCP, because fit & freedom of movement from some of my tight jeans pockets is important to me.
Why not get yours examined and have whatever's wrong it corrected under warranty (presuming it's a 'gun' problem, and not a shooter or ammo-induced issue, of course)?
Probably better than complaining about it.
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