What's the deal with lock's?

The ILF thread was full of first hand examples of lock malfunction, mine included...
If you're referring to the ILF thread 'sticky' that was kept going on this forum
for about five years, I beg to differ. The number of first person ILF events over the five year period was either 19 or 20 with two or three of those in non S&W firearms.

The current owner of Smith & Wesson is not the owner that 'sold out'. The current owner is a lock manufacturer and incorporated its locks in S&W products.
 
I did as RDak did...removed only the tit/nub on the flags of several of my IL'd S&W's.

No muss, no fuss, but more importantly, no more IL and no holes to have to deal with as an end result.

YMMV.................
 
If you're referring to the ILF thread 'sticky' that was kept going on this forum for about five years, I beg to differ. The number of first person ILF events over the five year period was either 19 or 20 with two or three of those in non S&W firearms.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that there were more than "19 or 20" first person accounts in the ILF thread. You can discount peoples ILF complaints 'til the cows come home but I'm not buying into it. I'm not sure why it happened but my M60 "locked up" at the range so I'm certain that it can happen. Was it user induced? I don't think so, I've been shooting for 25 years and it hasn't happened before or since...
 
Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that there were more than "19 or 20" first person accounts in the ILF thread. You can discount peoples ILF complaints 'til the cows come home but I'm not buying into it. I'm not sure why it happened but my M60 "locked up" at the range so I'm certain that it can happen...
I was keeping count up to its being abandoned by the OP. The thread was full of contentious statements and vows for and against ever again buying S&W and plenty of hearsay. Osprey, the OP who 'stickified' the thread, set out criteria for posting ILFs and, like yours perhaps, there were a few that fit. The rest was noise and Osprey eventually abandoned the thread to become whatever it became.

Since Lee Jarrett took over the forums and changed servers, that thread is no longer available for whatever reasons. I, for one, was glad to see it go.

As far as discounting first person ILFs, I'm not doing that. I'm a believer. However, the number of first person ILF failures 'documented' in the thread was relatively small among the sample population comprising membership in this forum: average of, say, 35,000 members times five years is 175,000 members. With twenty qualifying ILFs during a five year period is an incidence among members of 0.01%. How many more than 20 would it take to move that decimal to the right?

During the five year period 2003 through 2007, according to ATF Manufacturing data, S&W manufactured 805,966 revolvers – let's use that even though the period of the thread ended after the last year of ATF data. Projecting the forum's sample to that number results in 92 ILFs in a five year period. That's about 18 per year among all S&W revolvers, according to our less than rigorously collected data.

Evidently 18 ILFs a year is few enough that a recall is currently unwarranted. S&W has not issued a recall in what is a very litigious day, age, and circumstance.

S&W is not stupid as they would have to be to ignore a significant, avoidable problem. An ILF free rate of 99.99% is hard to improve upon but I'll wager S&W is attempting just that. That's not to say that there aren't ILFs. What achievable manufacturing standard can drill down to this level? I have no idea.

Conversely, ILFs are relatively easy to preclude following instructions posted in various threads on this forum. Those unwilling to take what appears to be a minuscule risk of an ILF who also want or need features in current production revolvers can disable the lock. For those whose deal killer objections include aesthetic and cosmetic reasons, well, buy pre-lock guns. Problem solved.
 
There is the objection sometimes raised that disabling the lock might cause problems were the gun to be used in a defensive shooting - i.e. oh you horrible monster, look how murderous you are, you even took the "safety" device out of your gun, yada yada.

Note I'm not a believer in that particular theory (I own two guns that formerly had IL mechanisms, they were removed by the prior owners), but some people are.

The mechanism that makes up the IL doesn't seem to be any more fragile than many of the various and sundry other small parts that make up the internals of a modern revolver. However it does represent another potential point of failure, however small that might be.

(I've had lock free revolvers lock up on me for various reasons too of course. That's why I like to carry more than one gun.)
 
Exactly how many Ford Pinto's blew up? How many miles were Pinto's driven with no fires? How many Pinto's were made that didn't blow up?

It doesn't matter, I am not driving in a Pinto. Why take a chance when there are other options?

From Wikipedia:

"Twenty-seven people died in Pinto fires. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was no worse than typical for the time."
 
From Wikipedia:

"Twenty-seven people died in Pinto fires. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was no worse than typical for the time."

Except that Ford KNEW of the design defect and elected to save less than $2/car by NOT putting the check valve that would have prevented the fires in the car. Hence the punitive damages when its disregard for its customers' safety became known.

There is no such evidence regarding S&W's internal lock. We all agree it is undesirable, but that is hardly proof of it being knowingly dangerous.
 
The same design flaw was in the Mustangs and Fairlanes, too, but for some reason got very little press. This has nothing to do with the conversation except for useless trivia.

I only have one IL S&W and that's a 638. I'm not sure what yet, but I'm going to do something to disable the lock. I loved my Pinto, but I was young and stupid. Now that I'm old and stupid, I'm not going to take any chances with that lock.
 
I watched the video. It made it look so easy that even I might be able to do it. One thing, however. Aren't you supposed to UNLOAD YOUR GUN before you work on it? Just for safety sake? I know there's not too much chance of it going off once you remove the hammer and all, but at one point, during reassembly, right before he put the side plate back on, he squeezed the trigger a little to check the function.

Oh well, maybe I'm just being overly cautious.
 
18 or even 92 out of 805,000 is a hell of a lot more often than winning the lottery. 18 failures is like 1 in 45,000. 92 failures is 1 in 8800. really not great odds.

there are more than enough non lock guns floating around to be pressed into defensive service if you feel 1 in 8800 are not good odds.

i think they are just too visually unpleasing.
 
I watched the video. It made it look so easy that even I might be able to do it. One thing, however. Aren't you supposed to UNLOAD YOUR GUN before you work on it? Just for safety sake? I know there's not too much chance of it going off once you remove the hammer and all, but at one point, during reassembly, right before he put the side plate back on, he squeezed the trigger a little to check the function.

Oh well, maybe I'm just being overly cautious.

It's ridiculously easy Old Griz. Whether you grind down the nub and reinstall the flag like I do or just simply take out the flag and whip it into the trash can like a frisbee!!

And yes, unload the gun first.
 
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Except that Ford KNEW of the design defect and elected to save less than $2/car by NOT putting the check valve that would have prevented the fires in the car. Hence the punitive damages when its disregard for its customers' safety became known.

There is no such evidence regarding S&W's internal lock. We all agree it is undesirable, but that is hardly proof of it being knowingly dangerous.

I hate the lock but I don't think S&W is keeping something in there they think is knowingly dangerous either.

I just want that stupid thing out of there. LOL!!
 
I will not carry an Integral Lock equipped Smith & Wesson revolver for defense or sport. If ever I do buy an Integral Lock equipped Smith & Wesson revolver, I will remove the Internal Lock, put it into a suitable small plastic bag, and let it live harmlessly in the factory box in which the revolver came to me. That way I can restore the revolver to factory specifications if I ever want to sell or trade it. And while the temporarily lockless revolver lives with me, I'll enjoy the reliability for which Smith & Wesson revolvers are famous.
 
Well, now you know me because I have a friend who is an LEO on the SFPD and he is a Dept. armorer and training officer and he has witnessed twice of an IL caused FTF.

Sure, I believe it. And the President is not a US citizen. I believe that too.

(Not really, unforunately, he is).
 
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This is all rather amusing to me. I have solved the whole problem by not buying a gun with a lock. I can't really understand why one would. Non lock guns are plentiful and for the most part less expensive. I have heard that the new guns are made to tighter tolerances but I don't own a gun that can't shoot better than I can.

At the NRA show in Phoenix the S&W guys were seeming to get a bit testy when people asked why the stupid lock. They wanted to talk about anything but.
 
I LOL every time this is hit on, people won't carry a smith that has a lock on it. To me I would carry it before I would tupperware that won't fire unside down, from a jacket pocket or many other ways. Auto's are "JUNK" that you can't depend on but so many do.

Makes about as much or more sence than the bitch about the lock "LOL".
 
I LOL every time this is hit on, people won't carry a smith that has a lock on it. To me I would carry it before I would tupperware that won't fire unside down, from a jacket pocket or many other ways. Auto's are "JUNK" that you can't depend on but so many do.

Makes about as much or more sence than the bitch about the lock "LOL".

Agreed.

Just recently we had a thread here about the fact the Sigmas and M&Ps have a small piece of fabric (Q-tip sized) inserted into one of the internal springs to 'dampen' it and prevent premature spring failures.

THAT's apparently okay, but people won't buy or carry guns with ILs.

I can understand anyone whose issue with the lock is over the political circumstances, but I don't get the ones who are afraid the gun will fail to fire when critically needed. They already accept that risk just due to the inherent risk of failure of many small parts within a gun.

And as you say, semi-auto stats on FTF or FTE don't seem to horrify many into not carrying semi-autos.


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