Whay do SO many 3rd gen autos with Novack sights shoot so LOW??

[Ascension]

Own quite a number of these pistols 910 to be eaxct ) and almost every single one with the Novack sights shoot 6 to 12 inches low at 10 yards (exception in particular is my tack driving 5943 with factory night sights). Have a set of LPA adjustable sights on several because of this now but it makes absolutely no sense to me why i have to do this?? Just took the Atalanta Police surplus decock only TSW 4003 I bought at the Pawn shop I work for out yesterday for the first time. Felt so good ran flawless but to hit a perp in the chest at 10 yards i would have to almost aim for the freekin HEAD! Pistol groups quite well just not to the point of aim however my value series 410 with the old style sights is dead on to POA as is my 1971 model 59 so what the heck?? Seems to just be the ones with Novak sights so??
Looks like yet again i'm ordering a LPA adjustable rear to fix this but???

 

[Pisgah]

One reason for these pistols shooting low is that most folks have no idea how to correctly employ three-dot sights. You line up the sights, then put the front dot right on your desired POI. Most folks align the top of the sights with the intended POI, and this lands your shot low. Yes, the sights will cover part of your target, but as long as the front and rear are aligned and the front dot is on the spot you want to hit, it'll work.

 

[growr]

Pisgah is spot on in analysis.
Randy

 

[GRT3031]

I've heard it more than once that the sights on combat pistols are regulated for a 12 O'clock POA on a bulls-eye target, or COM on a silhouette. Old school training had the POA of the bulls-eye at 6 O'clock.

I hate three dot sights. I like Sig style bar and dot, or plain black rear, dot or plain serrated front.

 

[nocents]

Own quite a number of these pistols 910 to be eaxct ) ...........................?

I'm confused.....are you saying you own a M910 or 910 3rd. Gens.?

 

[Ascension]

One reason for these pistols shooting low is that most folks have no idea how to correctly employ three-dot sights. You line up the sights, then put the front dot right on your desired POI. Most folks align the top of the sights with the intended POI, and this lands your shot low. Yes, the sights will cover part of your target, but as long as the front and rear are aligned and the front dot is on the spot you want to hit, it'll work.

Problem is with my 1911's Browning high Powers and others I have the sights aligned and the top of the front sight centered on my target. Thanks for clarifieng the intended sight picture as that makes sense but it still throws me off going to the novacs if I need a different POA from my other pistols with them. Seeing i work in a Pawn Shop that stays open on the weekend till 11PM at one location I need consistency. Now i am quite capable of drawing and dropping a full mag center mass on a still target without using the sights at 10 yards. However I still need to have the ability to use sights on a moving shooter without having to think about which pistol I am carrying with which sight picture to stay alive potentially. Can do that with my 59 and 410 , the Shorty .40 and the 1066 with LPA adjustable + my 5943 but NOT my other 3rd gens with the Novacs.
If I'm aiming center chest and may catch the guy in the nuts ( if I'm lucky) at 20 yards in a firefight that's not acceptable if i want to keep breathing.

 

[Ascension]

I'm confused.....are you saying you own a M910 or 910 3rd. Gens.?

That was 10 3rd gens missed the shift key LOL!!

 

[vigil617]

One reason for these pistols shooting low is that most folks have no idea how to correctly employ three-dot sights. You line up the sights, then put the front dot right on your desired POI. Most folks align the top of the sights with the intended POI, and this lands your shot low. Yes, the sights will cover part of your target, but as long as the front and rear are aligned and the front dot is on the spot you want to hit, it'll work.

I don't mind saying that in my eight years or so of owning and shooting Third Gen semi-autos with three-dot sights, I never realized that they are set to be employed this way.

My groups typically are low by 2 to 3 inches. I thought it was just me. (Well, now I know, it really is me, but not for the reason I thought!)

Pisgah, you have done a great service for many of us. I thank and salute you, sir!

 

[BAM-BAM]

One reason for these pistols shooting low is that most folks have no idea how to correctly employ three-dot sights. You line up the sights, then put the front dot right on your desired POI. Most folks align the top of the sights with the intended POI, and this lands your shot low. Yes, the sights will cover part of your target, but as long as the front and rear are aligned and the front dot is on the spot you want to hit, it'll work.

Ditto....... these were never intended to be target pistols ....

 

[vegasgunhand]

Not to cast any aspersions on anyone's marksmanship abilities, but when I was a firearms instructor for the U.S. Customs Service when the service adopted the S&W 6906. We found that many agents were not use to the DA/SA action 6906, we got quite a few agents that "mashed the trigger on the heavier DA trigger pull, of course causing them the put the first shot low.

Again, not saying anyone's marksmanship is poor with the DA/SA trigger system, but it just an observation.

 

[SMSgt]

If I'm aiming center chest and may catch the guy in the nuts ( if I'm lucky) at 20 yards in a firefight that's not acceptable if i want to keep breathing.

I don't know. A shot there will probably be enough to take the fight out of any guy.

 

[Fastbolt]

Want to know why so many shooters seem to shoot 3rd gen .40's "low"?

Slip in a couple of Dummy rounds in each of their magazines, without them knowing it, and stand back and watch them shoot. After the first couple of times they can feel their muzzles really dip before the gun fails to fire on an unexpected Dummy round, they realize they really are anticipating the little extra bit of felt recoil/ muzzle snap common to the .40 guns, even if they won't acknowledge it.

 

[k22fan]

There is truth in what both Pisgah and Fastbolt posted. While 3rd Generation Novaks were stupidly designed to superimpose their front dot on the intended POI, when their dots are ignored and they are used like normal sights with a center hold shots only land 4 to 6 inches low at 25 yards. The original poster's, Anscesion's, 6 to 12 inches low at only 10 yards is the result of flinching or jerking the trigger. I suggest practicing basic slow fire marksmanship with the specific pistol until you can hold all shots in a 5 to 6 inch circle at 25 yards then evaluate were that circle is. S&W used to sell lower front sights for those of us who do not like trying to hit a soda pop can that is completely hidden behind the front sight at 25 yards. However, only practice will raise point of impact at 10 yards 6 to 12 inches. Most of us occasionally have to go back to practicing basic accuracy to master or remaster pistols that are dissimilar to the ones we've been shooting recently. That done, speeding it up is relatively easy.

 

[Ascension]

Not to cast any aspersions on anyone's marksmanship abilities, but when I was a firearms instructor for the U.S. Customs Service when the service adopted the S&W 6906. We found that many agents were not use to the DA/SA action 6906, we got quite a few agents that "mashed the trigger on the heavier DA trigger pull, of course causing them the put the first shot low.

Again, not saying anyone's marksmanship is poor with the DA/SA trigger system, but it just an observation.

None taken here. In fact one of the 3rd gen Smiths I carry often because of how well I shoot is my DAO 5943!! That is what baffled me the most about all this as I flat shoot the heck out of that pistol even though it has 3 dot Novac Night sights.

 

[Fastbolt]

When using the standard low mount Novak 3-dot sights, I align the white dots, which aligns the top edges of the front & rear sights, and put my intended POI at the top edge of the front post. Just like I'd do if the sights were plain black, lacking any dots.

On the different 3rd gen's I've used and own (9's, .40's & .45's) this typically lets me make called hits on wooden clothespins that are clipped around the edges of the target cardboard back boards, with the distances carrying within 4-10yds.

When doing a "dot drill" using the standard small black dots pre-printed on some of our silhouettes, or just doing a chasing the (bullet) hole drill on a plain target, I use the same POA/POI. Bisect the hole I want to chase/hit with the top of the aligned sights, and press the trigger. This is all at relatively short ranges, though, meaning usually no more than 10-11yds (since the target is so small).

 

[Ascension]

There is truth in what both Pisgah and Fastbolt posted. While 3rd Generation Novaks were stupidly designed to superimpose their front dot on the intended POI, when their dots are ignored and they are used like normal sights with a center hold shots only land 4 to 6 inches low at 25 yards. The original poster's, Anscesion's, 6 to 12 inches low at only 10 yards is the result of flinching or jerking the trigger. I suggest practicing basic slow fire marksmanship with the specific pistol until you can hold all shots in a 5 to 6 inch circle at 25 yards then evaluate were that circle is. S&W used to sell lower front sights for those of us who do not like trying to hit a soda pop can that is completely hidden behind the front sight at 25 yards. However, only practice will raise point of impact at 10 yards 6 to 12 inches. Most of us occasionally have to go back to practicing basic accuracy to master or remaster pistols that are dissimilar to the ones we've been shooting recently. That done, speeding it up is relatively easy.

It was 6 to 12 inches low at 25 yards with the worst offenders. The 3rd gen exception with Novacs is my 5943 DAO pistol. Worst ones I have encountered are the subcompacts BTW at about a foot low at 25 yards. Maybe the 5943 has a lower front sight installed as I am dead on with it at 10 yards as am I with my 1971 Model 59 and also my value series 410. Have LPA Adjustable sights on my 1066 and they came on my 97 MK 3 Shorty .40 and shoot very well with both.
20 yards is critical because at one of our shops that is very close to the distance from the back of the showroom to the front door so if some idiot barges in with a shot gun and i'm in the back---.
PS can draw and drop 5 rounds in a 4 inch group at 7 yards in about 4 seconds with consistency shooting instinctively because i run a laser trainer and have developed muscle memory + run a few thousand live rounds. My problem comes with taking my time and trying to place shots with the novacs without thinking which pistol I'm shooting and how high I need to hold over to compensate for it.

 

[Ascension]

Want to know why so many shooters seem to shoot 3rd gen .40's "low"?

Slip in a couple of Dummy rounds in each of their magazines, without them knowing it, and stand back and watch them shoot. After the first couple of times they can feel their muzzles really dip before the gun fails to fire on an unexpected Dummy round, they realize they really are anticipating the little extra bit of felt recoil/ muzzle snap common to the .40 guns, even if they won't acknowledge it.

Have never particularly liked the "feel" of the .40 or .357 Sig because of that initial sharp impulse. MUCH prefer shooting 10mm to a .40 because it has a smoother push rather that that violent SNAP with a good defensive load and consistently group better with my 10's than my full size .40's with the exception of my 410. I carry 9mm more at work because I can drop more rounds on target quicker and also worry about over penetration with a 10mm. I normally carry 180 grain Underwood Gold dots in my 1066 or 5 inch Rock Island Ultra 1911 BTW.
What prompted this was the 1st outing with that 4003 TSW where it was 6 inches + LOW at the 10 yards then i'm eating the bull out with my 410 right behind it. I was like WHAA?? Atlanta police marked 4003 TSW factory decock only and i had bought it to carry but the value series 410 shot it's lights out!! The TSW groups well It just groups well LOW! Will just order a LPA rear set it and be done with it all but was confused as to why this has been consistent with the 3 dot novac sights.
Thanks for the info guys!