where are all these posters at on our forums?

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This weekend I crossed over the 10k round mark with no issues other than a few mag snags, but occasionally I also hear a round that sounds funny. Not nearly as loud a report, and less powerful than normal. Does anyone Know what this might be and if there is cause for alarm? Like eztarget I have a young daughter that likes to shoot and I would never forgive myself if I put her in harms way.

I'd say that's the ammo. I got one a couple weeks ago with my Ruger 22/45 that was so light I thought it was a a FTFire, but when I pulled back on the bolt only the case came out with no bullet. The case was clean on the inside. Checked the barrel... nothing there. So it musta rolled down the range floor somewhere.....

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Phil, do you or anyone else here know what the inherent cause of this is? Does it appear to be a design flaw? Is there a way to resolve it? Is it possible that the mods that are being done to repair failed units (ftf issues with blue springs) address this issue too? I have not had this happen to me yet but I must admit there have been a few rounds that sounded distinctively different than the rest (same ammo). Enough to make me stop and check before continuing to fire. I am concerned because soon I will be exposing my 16yr old son and 9yr old daughter to this gun. Not to mention me being left handed so I am kinda hanging out there. I don't want one of those holes in my cheek...

thanks.

I duknow.

Here is a synopsis of what I have read here: There has been endless speculation and debate here for many months... including the color of the star in the Manual, color of the springs, Ser# groupings, first release of rifles, marking on mag, method of loading mag, weather too cold, ejector out of position, shape of extractor, rifle too dirty, too much oil, too dry, too whatever... on and on and on. So far I have seen nothing convincing. (Though some have had luck bending the ejector for problematic case ejections)

A. New rifles typically fail right away or within the first few hundred rounds. If the rifle makes it past that they seem to run good with Fed and CCI ammo.

B. If the rifle does fail, S&W seems to fix whatever the problem was and the rifle works well from then on.

C. Fed and CCI ammo seem to be reported the least with OOB issues. Win and Rem seem to be reported more.

D. I have 14k rounds of Fed Value Pack thru mine and it works great. I know Belt_Fed has about the same. So there's two rifles approaching 30k rounds with no problems so far. Belt_Fed is a weapons guru. I just like to hear things go bang.

E. If you think there is a problem with your rifle and a child will be using it, just send it back to S&W. For brand new rifles I would suggest (just my opinion) not handing the rifle to children or others until there is 500-1000 rounds or so thru it regardless how well you think it's working. ChuckS (another weapons guru) thought his rifle was working great until around 500 rounds when he had an OOB and rifle broke.

 

[emmandpeashooter]

... but I must admit there have been a few rounds that sounded distinctively different than the rest (same ammo). Enough to make me stop and check before continuing to fire....

This is simply an issue of quality control. Target or match ammo is much more tightly controlled and that's why it's better.

The only time you need to be worried is as Phil said when you hear it maybe very very extra quiet. Like cap gun quiet. His procedure is what you should do if you are worried after hearing this. Step one remove the magazine. Two; pull the charging handle to check the chamber and lock it in the open position. Three; recheck the chamber. Four look down the barrel to ensure there's no obstruction. Be safe and happy shooting.

 

[eztarget]

This is simply an issue of quality control. Target or match ammo is much more tightly controlled and that's why it's better.

The only time you need to be worried is as Phil said when you hear it maybe very very extra quiet. Like cap gun quiet. His procedure is what you should do if you are worried after hearing this. Step one remove the magazine. Two; pull the charging handle to check the chamber and lock it in the open position. Three; recheck the chamber. Four look down the barrel to ensure there's no obstruction. Be safe and happy shooting.

look down the barrel. do you break it down and remove the bolt group? i see no other way. just curious

 

[lonejacklarry]

look down the barrel. do you break it down and remove the bolt group? i see no other way. just curious

Yes, you do and it is very important that you do not omit this step. If you fire another round while the barrel is obstructed in any way, then bad things happen.

At the very least you will ruin your barrel and at the high end, you stand the chance of seriously injuring yourself or some one nearby.

You can look down the muzzle end for daylight after the rifle has been opened but this is not the recommended manner. You don't want to get into the habit of doing this unless the gun is completely broken down.

 

[tatwell]

ChattanoogaPhil stated the problem quite well. Especially his advice not to let a child shoot the rifle until after the rifle has had a goodly number of rounds through it-especially a left-hander. As some on here might know from some other posts of mine I have been researching this problem for about a month now. You can go to just about any shooting forum with a rim fire section and find someone who has had OOB's with this rifle. The scary thing, to me, is with left handed persons, thank heavens no one has gotten badly hurt, usually a spattering of particles in the face.

I do have some interesting, to me, information that I have gathered from poking around. First, if you live long enough sooner or later you may have to eat a little crow. I have to admit that I had a false assumption when I started reading about OOB's here. I have been around a long time, shooting for over 40 years, and I have never had an OOB on any semiautomatic 22 that I have owned. Some of the more astute posters on here did say that an OOB could happen on most semiautomatics, and this failure isn't all that rare. Mentally I did not believe this, but I'll have my crow well done please, the others were correct.

You will find several different theories as to what causes an OOB, they vary somewhat depending on the brand of rifle. The gunsmiths on here certainly know more than an amateur like myself, and no doubt know all the ins and outs of semiautomatic blow back actions and what makes them work, and not work. However, the theories I found-on many different brands-included faulty headspace, sticking firing pins, fouling build up, faulty ammunition, etc. With the S&W problems seem to be happening within a few shots on a new rifle, or after a large number of shots, and apparently within any serial number range. Even a late model blue spring model doesn't seem to be immune.

I have a theory as to what is going on, probably I am full of beans so feel free to laugh. I have felt from the beginning that the key to the OOB problem lies in the barrel. Here's why I think that: Over on rimfire central in the Thompson Center R-55 section, a lot of the R-55 rifles have had OOB's and many have been sent back to TC. I didn't know that S&W owned TC now until I started reading on that forum. As a side note, S&W treats their customers great, but for some reason TC does not. Seems like it takes forever to get a rifle back once it's in TC's hands.

Anyway, one of the proposed causes of a cartridge not fully chambering and firing is that the R-55 has a match chamber. Very sensitive to fouling, and ammunition that is maybe on the borderline as to size. Some people have polished the chamber and have taken care of the OOB's, however this may not always work and the rifle goes back to TC.

I have wondered from the start if the S&W match barrel, made by TC, may have a match chamber. One thing wrong with my theory is that I can't find any reports from S&W owners who think that any barrel work had been done when S&W fixed their rifle. So I am just speculating. What would be interesting would be to have someone who had an OOB, check out their chamber, without cleaning, before it goes back to S&W. If I am right then I would think that one could manually insert a round and probably feel some resistance. Just speculation on my part.

I want one a 15-22, but I am still leery of buying something that I may well have send back, or worse yet have someone get hurt. I went to one of the local gun shops last week and looked over their 22 stock. I looked a 3 15-22's, all had DTU**** numbers and no blue springs. They had just gotten one of the Talo models in, and when we broke it down it did have blue springs, and the ejector looked to be correctly adjusted. That one's serial number was a DTZ****. I looked at the Ruger s-22, didn't care much for it. I checked out the only SIG522 they had, but it has the canted gas block issue and I would have had to send it back to SIG for them to replace the barrel.

I do believe that the 15-22 and the SIG522(my personal favorite) are the top models in their class. I almost bought the Talo 15-22, but I am still concerned about the OOB's. I am still going to get one of these, but in the meantime I did buy a military type 22 so my trip wasn't wasted. This is an S&W forum, so when I tell you what I bought I know you'll laugh. I bought an AK47 22, a real tank but feels good to me.

Now that I have a 22, and wouldn't be without if I got a 15-22 and had to send it back, I am going back to the gunstore this morning and check out their stock again. I may bring home, I'll post if I do.

One last thing. This has been said many times here, but why doesn't S&W put out a statement and say what the problem is and exactly what they do to fix it?

 

[chuck s]

"Match" chambers should not be used on general purpose self loading rifles. The S&W15-22 may suffer from this.

Out of battery discharges are facts of life with self loading .22LR firearms. Usually quite rare although S&W has a lot of them reported (here). We really don't know the number.

These rifles use controlled feed whereby the cartridge case rim slips under the extractor during feeding. The extractor holds the case against the bolt and if the firing pin impacts the case rim anytime after this point the cartridge will detonate. If anything causes a partial chambering the cartridge will go Bang when the hammer falls.

Common reasons for partial chambering include an undersized chamber (AKA overly tight "match" chamber), dirty chamber, damaged chamber wall from dry firing, defective or oversize ammo, and just plain dirty ammo. .22LR is externally lubricated and dropping one in the dirt and putting in the magazine will contaminate the chamber.

The M16/AR15, by the way, is "stuff feed." It just stuffs a cartridge in the chamber and snaps the extractor over the rim after it's in there. Completely different bolt design.

The hammer trigger design of the AR15 is directly carried over to the M&P15-22 and the hammer will drop when the bolt is half way closed. Won't strike the firing pin, but it'll drop. If the M&P15-22 bolt is very close to closing, however, the hammer can reach the firing pin and detonate the cartridge out of battery.

This is not an issue with the M16/AR15 as the firing pin is too short to reach the primer until the bolt is locked shut and the bolt carrier cammed around it. No out of battery firing without a major breakage or malfunction.

A clean chamber and clean ammo are vital.

-- Chuck

 

[tatwell]

I agree Chuck, you said it much better than I, and in fewer words. You just educated me on one thing that I didn't know, about the 15-22 using controlled feed. Thanks for sharing that.