Which S&W do you trust your life with: a home and on the street?

[Smoke]

As to what to do with it, 2 choices. Since I knew the dog and owner I'd probably call the sherif and tell him I had shot a threatening dog and then take the body over to the neighbors yard and dump it there and let the sherif deputy tell them why it was killed.

JMO but if you are calling the police at all I wouldn't move the dog let them come out and look at it first then let them or the neighbor handle the disposal

 

[Protected One]

Out and about - Glock 23. Nightstand? a Browning High Power.

 

[Waywatcher]

Not really, the 20 gauge will throw less lead since it is smaller, so it can't do as much as the 12. Whether it be buck or slugs, it is not as effective IMO. I get the fit issue though, that's totally understandable.




This. If you have shot both, you soon realize the 20 gauge kicks nearly as much as the 12 and it's really more about the weight of the gun. Bottom line, if you want a shotgun for HD, you want it to throw as much lead and the largest lead possible.

For me, on the street it's either my Shield 9mm or my 642. As much as I love my Shield, someway somehow I still trust my 642 more. For HD my 4566TSW will do exactly what I will ask of it.

Some strange logic at work, Kadonny. If you're interested in throwing as much lead as possible per trigger pull, wouldn't you use a 10 gauge for HD and a .45 (or even a .50 DEagle) for carry?

The fact is, a 20 gauge is still a .62 caliber, which makes it no slouch. Indeed, the difference between .62 and .73 could easily be as minor as the difference between two expanded .40 JHPs--maybe even from the same box. 20 gauges also weigh about a pound less and still recoil less--both of which are positive attributes.

Among similar loads, a 20 gauge will launch 20 pellets of .25 caliber, and the 12 will launch 27 pellets of .24 caliber. The increased mass of the additional pellets and the larger gun largely cancel--which begs the question--will the target know the difference between the two loads? I doubt it.

It's fine to like 12 gauge better, but dismissing the 20 gauge as a less-than-serious gun is just plain silly.

 

[mc5aw]

I don't see that anyone frowned on not killling the dog. What was frowned on was the unjustified "warning" shot.

This ^^^^^

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Firing an intentional warning shot at any aggressive foe is inconsistent with Rule II as it shows a predetermined unwillingness to destroy a given hostile target.

I "frown" upon firing a handgun with a deliberate intent to scare. I also "frown" upon harboring a belief that firing warning shots at aggressive dogs on two occasions prepares one for the mental, mechanical, and tactical aspects of defending one's life against a violent two-legged threat. I submit that such a misguided mindset actually puts a person at a greater disadvantage in that it creates false senses of security and confidence in one's abilities. Thinking that you are ready to defend against an armed threat merely because you shot at some dogs is analogous to bringing a vehicle up to 100mph on the highway and subsequently believing you're ready to drive in a NASCAR race.

As to what I would have done ... I would have shot the dog dead, notified LEO, explained the situation, and detailed the threat I faced which justified my actions.

I had a similar situation happen this past week, where a large unleashed dog bounded up onto my back porch, knocked down my wife, cornered my daughter, and tried to attack my terrier. The dog was aggressive, and fortunately did not seriously injure my wife, child or terrier. I was not home at the time, but upon getting a hysterical call from the Mrs., I made it back post haste and explained to the neighbor about leash laws and the ramifications of a second incident. As my neighborhood is residential (and the DA lives two houses down), any discharge of a weapon is prohibited, thus dealing with an aggressive animal requires a different tact. I explained to the neighbor that if his dog (150lbs+) was to repeat his aggressive actions, I would defend my family and terrier with a 36" steel pry bar hanging from a post on the porch, having no compunctions about breaking his dog's neck or crushing its skull to quell an attack. Trying to scare this dog would be fruitless based on its size and aggressive nature, thus deadly force would be required. That said, defending my family by beating an aggressive dog with a pry bar in no way would prepare me to ward off violent home invaders, car jackers, etc., nor am I foolhardy enough to think that it would.

 

[fdw]

Out and about - Glock 23. Nightstand? a Browning High Power.

Not to get off topic... but I will quickly. I keep hearing about the hi power and saw a few used ones the other day. What makes it so good? Reliability?

 

[gmiller0737]

Model 3913 or a Model 60-7


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fdw]

Model 3913 or a Model 60-7


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

not sure...

 

[Smoke]

Model 3913 or a Model 60-7

not sure...

The above post wasn't in response to your question about BHPs it was a statement about 2 models of S&W

 

[Smoke]

As my neighborhood is residential (and the DA lives two houses down), any discharge of a weapon is prohibited, thus dealing with an aggressive animal requires a different tact.

In Colorado that is what's called an affirmative defense.

You're admitting to breaking the law (against discharging a firearm within city limits and shooting your neighbor's dog) but stating that you were justified in doing so by extenuating circumstances. (Shoot the dog or lose your wife).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/affirmative_defense

AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSEA defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).

 

[Kentucky Dave]

Not to get off topic... but I will quickly. I keep hearing about the hi power and saw a few used ones the other day. What makes it so good? Reliability?

The Hi Power is a true Classic firearm. They work.

As an aside I always remember the scene in Serpico (this in a time when the cops had wheel guns & most of his squad apparently hadn't seen a Hi Power, one of the first high cap mags handguns) where he'd thrown an aggressive officer onto the floor of the squad room and put the HP in his ear.

The talk quickly got away from the immediate situation to "Hey, isn't that one of those Brownings? How many rounds does it hold?"
Serpico "13"...
Other cop, "Wow! Why would you need that many bullets?"
Serpico "How many of you are in this room?" (speaking to bent cops)

Nuts! Now you've got me thinking I should get a Hi Power again. I should see if I have any of my old pre-ban mags sitting around, though. Otherwise kinda pointless in CA.

 

[fdw]

The Hi Power is a true Classic firearm. They work.

As an aside I always remember the scene in Serpico (this in a time when the cops had wheel guns & most of his squad apparently hadn't seen a Hi Power, one of the first high cap mags handguns) where he'd thrown an aggressive officer onto the floor of the squad room and put the HP in his ear.

The talk quickly got away from the immediate situation to "Hey, isn't that one of those Brownings? How many rounds does it hold?"
Serpico "13"...
Other cop, "Wow! Why would you need that many bullets?"
Serpico "How many of you are in this room?" (speaking to bent cops)

Nuts! Now you've got me thinking I should get a Hi Power again. I should see if I have any of my old pre-ban mags sitting around, though. Otherwise kinda pointless in CA.

I may stroll back and take another look at those used ones...

 

[Protected One]

I may stroll back and take another look at those used ones...

You'll be glad that you did. It was John M. Brownings "post 1911" design, and it would be the last gun to go from my arsenal - period!
It shoots 'exactly' where aimed, is the most comfortable in my hand of any gun I've held, holds 13+1 rounds, and on top of all that.... its got the nerve to be beautiful!!!

 

[fdw]

Some strange logic at work, Kadonny. If you're interested in throwing as much lead as possible per trigger pull, wouldn't you use a 10 gauge for HD and a .45 (or even a .50 DEagle) for carry?

The fact is, a 20 gauge is still a .62 caliber, which makes it no slouch. Indeed, the difference between .62 and .73 could easily be as minor as the difference between two expanded .40 JHPs--maybe even from the same box. 20 gauges also weigh about a pound less and still recoil less--both of which are positive attributes.

Among similar loads, a 20 gauge will launch 20 pellets of .25 caliber, and the 12 will launch 27 pellets of .24 caliber. The increased mass of the additional pellets and the larger gun largely cancel--which begs the question--will the target know the difference between the two loads? I doubt it.

It's fine to like 12 gauge better, but dismissing the 20 gauge as a less-than-serious gun is just plain silly.

Well said and I like Massad's quote on the 20 " "the 20 gauge delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil"

I keep my 20 loaded with #3 or 4 buck depending on what's available...

 

[pmosley]

Smoke, Mc5aw, Pmosley: I gather that none of you approve of what I did. I am not trying to start an argument, but I sincerely ask what YOU would have done in these situations. Please tell me your reaction to each incident.



2AM: Dark yard in a very rural area. Lit enough to see my neighbors dog being attacked and about 4-5 wild dogs running frantically around the old blind dog being attacked. I might have hit one, I don't know. All I know is that I stopped the attack. I really want you guys to chime in and say what YOU would have done. Let the dog get killed on the spot or???? After the first shot, they all scattered fast.



As far as the daytime incident, I assume all of you would have preferred that I immediately kill the other dog belonging to a neighbor down the road. Am I right or am I misreading your responses? I have never heard of a "Joey B", but will go Google it later. In this case, I clearly had a choice to make. Kill or scare. I chose scare. My wife or grandkids were not in the yard. It was me and dog only. So the standard response should be "kill the neighbors dog immediately"??



And for those of you that answer "kill the dog immediately", then what would you do afterwards with a dead dog in your own yard? Do you leave it there on the front lawn, go quietly dispose of the body or take it down the road to the neighbor that owns it and hand him a corpse??

I try, albeit sometimes unsuccessfully, to abstain from judging other's action that they may share on this site, particularly based upon conditions that I may not have encountered.

My comments where intended only at the "Joey B" reference which I find "under the radar" humorous.

No offense was intended to OP.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[340PDOperator]

Are we still talking about warning shots, Mo Trainin and dogs? Lol.

Time to shut this hijack down and get back to guns


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[radar1972]

At home: 586
Away: 360J or BG380

 

[Kadonny]

Some strange logic at work, Kadonny. If you're interested in throwing as much lead as possible per trigger pull, wouldn't you use a 10 gauge for HD and a .45 (or even a .50 DEagle) for carry?

How is it strange? It's not hard to understand. If you have a 10 gauge for HD, then use it as it will be the most effective, just as a 12 gauge will be more effective than a 20 gauge. Pretty easy to understand. There are a bunch of hd articles floating around that compare the two with hd loads for each.

Not sure your carry point, but the reason people (and myself)don't walk around with a Desert Eagle on their hip is because it's heavy and large, hard to carry and even harder to conceal. When carrying a gun around all day it's about more than just bullet mass. It's different altogether than an hd scenario.

The fact is, a 20 gauge is still a .62 caliber, which makes it no slouch. Indeed, the difference between .62 and .73 could easily be as minor as the difference between two expanded .40 JHPs--maybe even from the same box. 20 gauges also weigh about a pound less and still recoil less--both of which are positive attributes.

Among similar loads, a 20 gauge will launch 20 pellets of .25 caliber, and the 12 will launch 27 pellets of .24 caliber. The increased mass of the additional pellets and the larger gun largely cancel--which begs the question--will the target know the difference between the two loads? I doubt it.

It's fine to like 12 gauge better, but dismissing the 20 gauge as a less-than-serious gun is just plain silly.

The fact is that a 12 gauge throws more lead at the target and with greater velocities (usually). How do they cancel? Larger gun? How do you figure. A 20" barrel on a 12 ga will be the same size as a 20" on a 20 ga., even the stock is usually the same size unless you are trying to compare a youth to a regular gun. The 20ga will be lighter, that's a fact because the loads are not as powerful, thus my point.

You can try to say it won't, but a 20 can absolutely kick nearly as much as a 12 because the gun is lighter. Go shoot a 100 bird sporting clay round with a 20ga and you'll feel it just as much as if you shoot a 12 ga. Weight is key.

P.S. Where did I ever say a 20 ga was not a serious gun? I just said a 12 ga is more effective.

 

[luangtom]

Either my 340PD or M&P340 for my EDC. My 65-6 beside the bed and my 640-1 at the recliner. The Rem. 870 sits behind the door. Not far from the perimeter of Metro-Atlanta, so one cannot be too cautious.

 

[Waywatcher]

How is it strange? It's not hard to understand. If you have a 10 gauge for HD, then use it as it will be the most effective, just as a 12 gauge will be more effective than a 20 gauge. Pretty easy to understand. There are a bunch of hd articles floating around that compare the two with hd loads for each.

Not sure your carry point, but the reason people (and myself)don't walk around with a Desert Eagle on their hip is because it's heavy and large, hard to carry and even harder to conceal. When carrying a gun around all day it's about more than just bullet mass. It's different altogether than an hd scenario.



The fact is that a 12 gauge throws more lead at the target and with greater velocities (usually). How do they cancel? Larger gun? How do you figure. A 20" barrel on a 12 ga will be the same size as a 20" on a 20 ga., even the stock is usually the same size unless you are trying to compare a youth to a regular gun. The 20ga will be lighter, that's a fact because the loads are not as powerful, thus my point.

You can try to say it won't, but a 20 can absolutely kick nearly as much as a 12 because the gun is lighter. Go shoot a 100 bird sporting clay round with a 20ga and you'll feel it just as much as if you shoot a 12 ga. Weight is key.

P.S. Where did I ever say a 20 ga was not a serious gun? I just said a 12 ga is more effective.

I went and plugged the numbers into a recoil calculator:
6.25lb 20 gauge, firing a standard 2.75" #3 buck load; and
7.25lb 12 gauge, firing a standard 2.75" #4 buck load.

20 gauge = 19.6 ft/lbs of recoil.
12 gauge = 28.0 ft/lbs of recoil. Ouch! This is about equivalent to a .338 Win Mag.

My shoulder can easily feel the difference, especially during practice. But could the target tell the difference? I doubt it. Follow up shots are definitely easier with the 20 gauge as well.

 

[fdw]

How is it strange? It's not hard to understand. If you have a 10 gauge for HD, then use it as it will be the most effective, just as a 12 gauge will be more effective than a 20 gauge. Pretty easy to understand. There are a bunch of hd articles floating around that compare the two with hd loads for each.

Not sure your carry point, but the reason people (and myself)don't walk around with a Desert Eagle on their hip is because it's heavy and large, hard to carry and even harder to conceal. When carrying a gun around all day it's about more than just bullet mass. It's different altogether than an hd scenario.



The fact is that a 12 gauge throws more lead at the target and with greater velocities (usually). How do they cancel? Larger gun? How do you figure. A 20" barrel on a 12 ga will be the same size as a 20" on a 20 ga., even the stock is usually the same size unless you are trying to compare a youth to a regular gun. The 20ga will be lighter, that's a fact because the loads are not as powerful, thus my point.

You can try to say it won't, but a 20 can absolutely kick nearly as much as a 12 because the gun is lighter. Go shoot a 100 bird sporting clay round with a 20ga and you'll feel it just as much as if you shoot a 12 ga. Weight is key.

P.S. Where did I ever say a 20 ga was not a serious gun? I just said a 12 ga is more effective.

I'll jump in if you don't mind.

As I said above I'll go with a guy who has some experience:

"the 20 gauge delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil" Massad Ayoob.

I've shot the 12 and 20 and I believe the above statement to be true. I'll take the 20 any day, now don't get defensive, I'm not knocking the 12 but the 20 is plenty good and delivers about half the recoil. Also, in the middle of the night awakened from a deep sleep with no ear plugs somehow I'd rather be pulling the trigger on a 20 rather than a 12.

As far as your statement the 12 gauge is more effective, I will agree.... for you, it may very well be...