Who loads full power wc's?

[Boogsawaste]

Wondering who out here in s&w land like to load full power wadcutters. I'm NOT interested in a debate about their effectiveness and this and that. Just wondering who's making them and WHAT components you're using.

I've made some up with 3.5 bullseye but even though I don't have a chronograph, they seem very tame. I know, I know, recoil isn't the best way to determine ballistics, but they really were mild. I have unique available to try and even herco, but I think it's too slow for 38 special (although I'd love to hear otherwise). It's just hard to find any data on anything besides target loads for 38 special hat cast solid base wadcutters (yeah yeah yeah, because they're made for punching paper, got it ).

So whatcha building yours with?

 

[Cd586]

Define "Full Power"? Equitable in power to factory available 38 Special? +P? Is there a certain velocity requirement? I've loaded some plated wadcutters at pretty punchy velocity.

If you're in Hellertown, by the way, be sure to check out Ken's indoor ICORE match. Its an action pistol match at an indoor range for revolvers only.

 

[Boogsawaste]

By full power I'm looking for defensive velocities. +p pressures is fine too. Maybe in the 850-900fps range from a 4"?

And if you have any info about this ICORE match I'd love to hear. Thanks.

 

[Erich]

I don't know if my posts are still findable here after The Great Post Loss, but NKJ Nut and I and some others discussed this in detail a few years back.

According to my manuals 5.1 grains of Unique/std primer is still standard pressure under a 148-grain Tennessee Valley Bullets DEWC, and it moves right out for me. M 1055.6/ES 86/SD 38 from a snub LCR for me back in July (ABQ city range/5950'>sea level/10% humid/78 degrees F).

 

[Boogsawaste]

Excellent Erich! I'll see if I can find that old thread.

 

[KLYDE]

My standard range load is 4.6 Unique and the 158 cast SWC. Not a powder puff but doesn't beat the gun up either. For mid to upper end loads Unique works great in the .38 Spl. Better powders for low end. 231 BE etc.

If you are looking to load a defensive round Power Pistol might give you higher velocity.

 

[David R]

Look in the lyman manual. They list full pressure loads, about 5 over 1,000 fps from a 4" special vented test barrel.

I have a box of 148 WC max load 231 getting 904 fps out of my 2" Chiefs special. These are in my 637 on my ankle right now. They are accurate. I don't shoot many. I cast them from 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 pure lead.

I quit casting a while ago , so I bought 1,000 HI TEK coated 138 grain Button nose wadcutters. I plan to load them to max standard pressure. I am going to try a couple powders.

I also bought 500 HBWC for 2.8 bullseye when I fire up the dillion this winter.

I procured a 4" model 15-3 recently. Its going to be great at the matches this winter with both of these loads.

David

Proof

After this target I will stick with them.

More Edit: The lyman manual shows loads for a 141 grain wadcutter cast of Linotype up to 40,000 CUP. in the 357 section.
Velocities in the 1300 range. I have never shot them over 1,000 fps. Could be a good experiment.

I think the bullet makes the case size smaller and more efficient.

 

[Coastie762]

Last year I chronographed a load consisting of 3.5 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain SNS cast DEWC. Primers used were CCI 500 with Starline brass. I recorded an average of 851 FPS from a 4" model 15-3 and 785 FPS from a 1 7/8" 637-2.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Thank you KLYDE. I use a similar charge of 4.5 for swc at the range. Thanks for the idea about power pistol. Different powders to look for is part of the reason for this thread. Of course, pending I can actually find said powders. :0

 

[rwsmith]

Hard SWCs, yes...

But not WCs as all the ones I buy are soft.

 

[KLYDE]

Jim,
Just for kicks I took a look at the Alliant web site. No data for the full wad cutter in +P but they did have a load for the Speer 158 LSWC.
Unique was 5.2 @ 919 fps
Power Pistol was 6 @ 1037 fps

Obviously a different bullet but you can get a general idea.

IIRC there is a good thread where the OP attempted to duplicate the Buffalo Bore ammo. I think Power Pistol ended up getting the closest.

The other day the LGS had about 15 lbs of PP on the shelf. Heading back tomorrow. He'll only sell 1 lb a week to you.

Wish I could mail you a jug.

 

[Boogsawaste]

David, that 231 load is moving along nicely from a snub. I shot up a bunch of those same hi tek 138's. If I didn't pick up 500 hard cast button nose wc at the last show I attended I'd have some more of those. They were so easy to clean, just like plated or jacketed. I also have 100 or so 158 swc from them to load up.

Coastie, interesting velocity from that bullseye load and thanks for posting that. Like I said, the old recoil in the hand trick isn't accurate. I have my eye on a certain chronograph that's at auction right now. I really think it's the missing piece of equipment for me. Will be eye opening for sure!

 

[Coastie762]

Boogsawaste, you are very welcome. I've owned a number of chronographs over the past 20 years or so and they have proven very useful. However sometimes they will raise more questions than answers. Part of the fun of the hobby, I guess...

I am a big fan of Power Pistol as well. I started out using it in 9mm and .357 Sig loads but have been using it more often in mid to full power cast loads for my revolvers. 6.0 grains of PP with a Missouri Bullet cast SWC averaged 978 FPS from the above 15-3 and 996 FPS from a 4" barreled 64-3. I have found it to work very well in .44 Special cast loads also.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Wish I could mail you a jug.

Wish you could too. And while you're at it, stick that special m64 you have in the box too.

Thanks for the info/suggestions everyone. Gave me some powders to look for and more ideas to try. You guys rock.

 

[David R]

I have never used Power pistol.

From lyman # 47

141 gr wadcutter
Bullseye 4.1 973 fps 16,800 Cup
Red Dot 4.2 961 fps 16,400 Cup
231 4.9 1001 fps 16,800 Cup I am getting 900 out of my chiefs special.
I want to try the red dot.

David

And more.

I hope I did not violate any tos.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

When building target wadcutters:
3.2gr W231 under a 148gr HBWC
3.4gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC

For more serious work:
4.2gr to 4.5gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC (slightly above current published data)
5.2gr to 5.4gr HS-6 under a 148gr DEWC (slightly above current published data)

 

[ironhead7544]

I used to hunt varmints and used the factory wadcutters. I was very surprised at the dismal results from a 4 or 6 inch barrel. I think it may be because of the soft lead used. When it hits something it may round off too easily. Also the factory speeds were very low. Never tried a hard cast at better speeds so it might work. +P 38 Special speeds with a 110 gr JHP worked just fine so I stuck with that. That was my issue carry load and I received factory wadcutters for practice.

The hard cast wadcutter at 900 fps from a snubbie might be the best load for the short barreled 38 Special. There is a lot of discussion about using the wadcutter for self defense but I can find no info on results. There may have been some departments that issued wadcutters for a carry load but I cant find any real evidence of it. The factory wadcutters are loaded to a lot less pressure than even the standard 158 gr LRN ammo. Buffalo Bore makes a 150 gr hard cast wadcutter load that should work. Years ago there was a faster wadcutter load made but the new ones are mostly low pressure.

 

[Keith44]

The only thing I remember about wadcutters from a 38 special is the old "trick" of using soft hollow base WC loaded nose down or backwards so that the base became a massive hollow point. This from the days when most departments issued round nose low pressure rounds. It's been too long since I've heard anything about this handload to quote anything about powders or velocity, but I always thought it would be an interesting load.

 

[federali]

People sometimes ask me what my favorite dinosaur load was. I must be getting old. But, I do recall very plainly that 3.5 grains of Bullseye was considered maximum for pressure while 2.7 grains was maximum for accuracy.

I've heard of coroners' reports indicating that wadcutters were indeed quite damaging to the human body. However, if they were a truly viable self defense load, police departments would have used them as such during revolver days. You're free to load what you want in your SD gun. However, wadcutters would be a nightmare to load from any device or even singly. They should not be used for tactical reloads.

Those here using hard-cast bullets have more options regarding peak loads. Soft lead projectiles need to be throttled back to prevent leading.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Federali, I really didn't want to get into the "why" I choose to use them. But here's my take. In a 4", I would use jhp or LSWCHP. In a snub I recently tried my normal carry load of speer 125 +p gold dots, hornady with the ftx tip, and some hydrashoks. All factory loads. A few weeks ago I shot a single speer into water jugs. It expanded perfectly. I decided to go out last week and shoot some more and the others because I wasn't convinced with my results. Now I'm not sure how good a water expansion test is, and I didn't even introduce any denim, but I got some to fail to expand per cylinder of all those tested. Let's just say I needed a LOT of water jugs as the non expanded ones went through a bunch of them! I decided that snubs didn't pump up the velocity enough to take chances. In my opinion, right or wrong, I'd rather have an expanding hollow point, but I'll compromise and use wadcutters since they'll behave similar all the time. I would be happy to have gold dot short barrel loads but they are extremely hard to find. I like to practice with my carry loads so rolling some wadcutters hot means I can shoot them a lot and always make more.

And about the police agencies using them. I can't answer this and can only speculate. My guess is that they mostly use commercially manufactured ammunition and factory wadcutters are better at punching paper. And I would carry something else in a reload. Either LSWCHP or possibly jhp. I do appreciate your opinions on this though.