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DeeBee
Member
Well, gee.... Winchester works in every other gun on the planet....so it cant be a Shield problem....
Why do Some 9mm Shields have FTE? And what is the real cause?
- Thread starter DeeBee
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Well, gee.... Winchester works in every other gun on the planet....so it cant be a Shield problem....
KKECK5
Member
I believe that if it happens often, it's the Shield... but only now and then, probably the ammo...I've put a ton of ammo thru my 40, and it seems to only happen once and while with cheapo ammo.
DocSunShine
Member
Stop reading the internet, anyone with any kind of gripe comes on here and bashes the gun. The Shield has been an outstanding gun, every manufacturer can put a lemon out, sucks you bought a lemon but it happens.
DocSunShine
Member
Well, gee.... Winchester works in every other gun on the planet....so it cant be a Shield problem....
Winchester's brass is a bit different than other manufacturers, the rim in particular is different and causes malfunctions in many different guns, it's actually notorious for it.
Well, gee.... Winchester works in every other gun on the planet....so it cant be a Shield problem....
we all have ideas.... and opinions..
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DeeBee
Member
Funny.. I have been shooting Winchester since 1987, and have never had a problem till the Shield.. I have shot it through many different guns, and I mean many! Oh and Blazer had the malfunction in my Shield also...
Ofc.JL
Member
Gentlemen, if I might?
As a LEO Armorer, I would be looking at several things on a FTE pistol.
1. Extractor; fitted properly, and correct spring tension. Also, IIRC, I believe someone stated that their extractor moved forward and back. Bad deal, if so. The extractor must work from a static position or it will "drop the ball", so to speak. I know that S&W does teach the proper way to fit an extractor in the M&P line, I would think that the Shield would be the same. Slamming these pistols out as fast as they can may have caused a lot of these FTE from poor fitting.
2. Barrel. As in the chamber. Unfinished, or poorly finished, or incorrectly cut. That would cause what I call a pressure lock FTE. Chamber has a rough or low spot in it, and the brass obturates into that spot upon discharge. Now the brass is basically locked into the chamber and the extractor can't pull it out correctly. Contrary to popular opinion, most locked breech auto handguns are already extracting the empty case as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Usually 2-4mm's worth of extraction, as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Locking features on handguns work as a time delay for the pressure in the barrel to drop off before they come open. It's a delicate balancing act that manufacturers have to engineer into thier pistols.
3. I was not aware of the Shield breechface issue. If S&W uses the .40 breech face for both the .40 and the 9, then I have a problem with that, and so do some Shield owners. Case movement on the breech face can cause just exactly what we are seeing with these FTE's. I would suspect that S&W tried this cost sqaving move to save a buck, and it came back to bite them. I will bet that they go back to dedicated caliber breech faces pretty quick if this winds up being a wholesale problem. And it looks like it is doing just that.
As much as I love S&W, it seems like the engineering staff just can't seem to get new guns right. I am getting very disappointed with S&W on several things.
S&W, are you guys listening?
Up the QC.
Get better suppliers.
Stop stupid cost cutting moves that you have to correct later.
Think thru your moves, think it again, and then think it again.
S&W, you guys used to be a World Class Firearms Co.
Now it seems like you are turning out problem after problem. Get a handle on it before you wind up being a revolver only company, please.
OK, rant off.
Thanx,
Ofc.JL
As a LEO Armorer, I would be looking at several things on a FTE pistol.
1. Extractor; fitted properly, and correct spring tension. Also, IIRC, I believe someone stated that their extractor moved forward and back. Bad deal, if so. The extractor must work from a static position or it will "drop the ball", so to speak. I know that S&W does teach the proper way to fit an extractor in the M&P line, I would think that the Shield would be the same. Slamming these pistols out as fast as they can may have caused a lot of these FTE from poor fitting.
2. Barrel. As in the chamber. Unfinished, or poorly finished, or incorrectly cut. That would cause what I call a pressure lock FTE. Chamber has a rough or low spot in it, and the brass obturates into that spot upon discharge. Now the brass is basically locked into the chamber and the extractor can't pull it out correctly. Contrary to popular opinion, most locked breech auto handguns are already extracting the empty case as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Usually 2-4mm's worth of extraction, as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Locking features on handguns work as a time delay for the pressure in the barrel to drop off before they come open. It's a delicate balancing act that manufacturers have to engineer into thier pistols.
3. I was not aware of the Shield breechface issue. If S&W uses the .40 breech face for both the .40 and the 9, then I have a problem with that, and so do some Shield owners. Case movement on the breech face can cause just exactly what we are seeing with these FTE's. I would suspect that S&W tried this cost sqaving move to save a buck, and it came back to bite them. I will bet that they go back to dedicated caliber breech faces pretty quick if this winds up being a wholesale problem. And it looks like it is doing just that.
As much as I love S&W, it seems like the engineering staff just can't seem to get new guns right. I am getting very disappointed with S&W on several things.
S&W, are you guys listening?
Up the QC.
Get better suppliers.
Stop stupid cost cutting moves that you have to correct later.
Think thru your moves, think it again, and then think it again.
S&W, you guys used to be a World Class Firearms Co.
Now it seems like you are turning out problem after problem. Get a handle on it before you wind up being a revolver only company, please.
OK, rant off.
Thanx,
Ofc.JL
OP
DeeBee
Member
OP
DeeBee
Member
Ofc.JL
Member
I plan to look at 2 made this year 9mm Shields that a friend owns. If I see that the breech face on these guns are .40 cal size, I will be surprised.
I could envision a accidental manufacturing run of several hundred Shield .40 cal slides that were built into 9mm pistols. "****! Now that they are made, sell them anyway, and repair what comes back" No idea if that is true or not, although stranger stuff then that has happened.
Knowing S&W's level of expertise in manufacture, I just can't for the life of me see S&W doing this.
But money talks and BS walks, so we will see. I will report back.
Ofc.JL
I could envision a accidental manufacturing run of several hundred Shield .40 cal slides that were built into 9mm pistols. "****! Now that they are made, sell them anyway, and repair what comes back" No idea if that is true or not, although stranger stuff then that has happened.
Knowing S&W's level of expertise in manufacture, I just can't for the life of me see S&W doing this.
But money talks and BS walks, so we will see. I will report back.
Ofc.JL
OP
DeeBee
Member
Its not an acident! All the 9 mm shields have a breachface cut to .40 specs.(slide a .40 casing up in your 9mm Shield breachface,it will go right in). It is a cost saving measure. Glock doesnt do it, and I am pretty sure no other company does it. Like I said it is a cost saving measure.
Where is Apex when all this is going on? Seems like they should have a failure resistant extractor for the 9mm Shield ready to go. They could sell thousands of them! IMO.
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Bkreutz
US Veteran
Apex does have an extractor, I have one in my 9L. https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid31.html I'm thinking they're probably working on one for the shield.
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DeeBee
Member
Ofc.JL
Member
I will know t'nite about the .40 cut for 9mm Shields. I am praying that this is a mistake on S&W's part. Because if it's not, then any 9mm Shield w/ a .40 cal breechface cut CANNOT be trusted for defense. I don't care if experts and engineers say otherwise. It's wrong, plain and simple. The gun will never be reliable. Period.
I do know everybody (S&W, et All!) make machining mistakes. I once has an M&P15 lower receiver that was sold as a available build part. On close inspection, the Fire Control group pivot holes were drilled for .170", not .152", as on MilSpec receivers. Hmmm, let me check... S&W does not use .170" FCG pins! Or has, ever. That's why the receiver was out for sale, S&W dumped them. No one knew the problem around my part of the world until I found it and showed them. S&W didn't have many of them for sale, as they caught the problem real quick when building new guns. And yes, the receiver was a new, never used part. Not a scatch on it anywhere. Just as virgin as fresh snow, if you will. And I thought it was unual as at the time, as every manufacturer was building guns out of anything they could find. So why was a virgin S&W15 receiver sitting in a gun case for sale, when the demand was so high. Out of spec, incorrect part. But usable if a person wanted to pay for "big" pin AR15 FCG parts. I just wasn't the one to do it. Smith dumped 'em on the market, and the Dist. didn't say word one about the size difference. Even if the Dist, and or salesman knew, no one ever told the stocking dealer till I showed him.
Ask SIG about mis-machining guns(new extractor 229's, early Granite Rail 1911's!). All of them were messed up for a while. SIG will fix it, but the cuts made the weapons unreliable.
And so it goes....
Ofc.JL
I do know everybody (S&W, et All!) make machining mistakes. I once has an M&P15 lower receiver that was sold as a available build part. On close inspection, the Fire Control group pivot holes were drilled for .170", not .152", as on MilSpec receivers. Hmmm, let me check... S&W does not use .170" FCG pins! Or has, ever. That's why the receiver was out for sale, S&W dumped them. No one knew the problem around my part of the world until I found it and showed them. S&W didn't have many of them for sale, as they caught the problem real quick when building new guns. And yes, the receiver was a new, never used part. Not a scatch on it anywhere. Just as virgin as fresh snow, if you will. And I thought it was unual as at the time, as every manufacturer was building guns out of anything they could find. So why was a virgin S&W15 receiver sitting in a gun case for sale, when the demand was so high. Out of spec, incorrect part. But usable if a person wanted to pay for "big" pin AR15 FCG parts. I just wasn't the one to do it. Smith dumped 'em on the market, and the Dist. didn't say word one about the size difference. Even if the Dist, and or salesman knew, no one ever told the stocking dealer till I showed him.
Ask SIG about mis-machining guns(new extractor 229's, early Granite Rail 1911's!). All of them were messed up for a while. SIG will fix it, but the cuts made the weapons unreliable.
And so it goes....
Ofc.JL
highaltitude
Member
I think it does have something to do with the WWB rim. I've shot 800+ rounds of Federal, S&B and other ammo with zero malfunctions. On the other hand, I've shot about 150 rounds of WWB and experienced 2 FTE's. I personally do not think the Shield likes WWB (at least mine doesn't). For those of you that believe you have a flawless shield, try grabbing some WWB with full magazine.. shoot and limp wrist it/relaxed grip a bit... then report back. IMO, the WWB has very little margin for error requiring pretty much an iron hold on the gun. Just my guess though.
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DeeBee
Member
Well mine has had failures with other ammo too. So it's not just Winchester. Like I said before the Shield should be able to shoot any factory ammo. It shouldn't be ammo sensitive.
catalyst686
Member
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What he said!
yogipogi
US Veteran
buy a revolver....just my .02
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DeeBee
Member
Anyone that relies on the 9 mm shield for self-defense is being foolish at this point. I will stick with the .40 version. My two 9 mms are going bye bye.
That's a pretty ridiculous and reckless statement to make based on what I have seen, experienced and read here.
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