Why is clipping off coils in springs considered bad?

[dant]

In simplistic terms, the saying of "don't cut down (clip) springs.." is trying to say in the shortest time, not to do it for a multitude of reason,s as noted above 'jst1mor' and 'wr moore' stated it properly, the "why not" in that case,but there are so many others, and I for one will always tell ANYONE if its a 'defense gun' or a "duty" firearm, absolutely NOT, its one thing for plinking, target, etc,. guns but not for defense or duty, (aside from you just MAY open yourself up to some sort of liability?? litigation? Lawyers love this kind of thing...................you did note that according to Kuhnhausen, just "what and how" to do makes for a GOOD, experienced explaination, or in the case of using a Wolf or whomever, the springs are 'designed, enginneered', to do, what one does NOT get when simply
"cutting & snipping" coils, just hate to hear "oops" in any endeavor.......

( or a "click" on a loaded round when NEEDED....)

 

[dangt]

I used to lighten rebound springs but it can lead to PUSH OFF. Anymore, I just get used to the gun as it is. The above comments about unreliable trigger return also apply. YOu don't really need a super light trigger to enhance your shooting; you just need to learn to control the trigger finger better.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Why is clipping off coils in springs considered bad? I've replaced stock springs with lighter Wolff springs in rebound slides and main springs. I can save a few bucks by clipping off a few coils but from what I've read, it's not a good thing to do but I haven't found any explanation as to why. Can someone educate me? Thanks.

For the same reason that putting a penny in the fusebox is considered bad . . .

 

[tomcatt51]

Why is clipping off coils in springs considered bad?

Because you can't put clipped coils back on when you clip too many. So instead of realizing that's how you learn how much you can clip and that starting over with another spring and clipping it less is part of the process, some just label the process as BAD.

 

[chief38]

Because you want to lessen the force needed to compress the spring and NOT decrease the amount you need to compress.

 

[tomcatt51]

Because you want to lessen the force needed to compress the spring and NOT decrease the amount you need to compress.

When you clip a rebound spring you do "lessen the force needed to compress the spring" because the clipped (shorter) spring is installed with less preload. The springs' rate is also increased by clipping coils but that's a much lesser effect than the reduced preload.

 

[chief38]

I know that - - - that's exactly what I was trying to convey! After reading my post again, I can understand how it could be misconstrued and could have worded it better.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Why is clipping off coils in springs considered bad?

I am not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV. Therefore, my answer to your question comes from a different place.

The revolver models in question (442 and 60) are for self-defense. Clipping coils from a J Frame mainspring makes the possibility of a misfire more likely. Clipping coils from the trigger return spring slows the return of the trigger. Under conditions of tolerance stack-up caused by gunk in the action, etc., a range-reliable gun can be turned into an unreliable piece of steel posing as a gun. Slower or no return of the trigger can get someone hurt in a serious situation just the same as a misfire.

I have never met anyone who said, after using a non-modified S&W in a gunfight, that they perceived the trigger action as too heavy.

If all you want to do is play around, and your revolver is NEVER to be used for self-defense, then by all means, enjoy working on and making modifications to your revolver. If you EVER plan to use it for real, return it to stock, for your own sake, and that of anyone who depends on you to protect them. If you are unable to shoot the stock revolver well enough to qualify with it in DA mode, then I suggest a semi-auto as that type of pistol has a DAO trigger of 6.5 to 8 pounds, which is far less that even the modified revolver.

 

[mogwan]

Regarding polishing leaf type mainspring surfaces- if engaging surfaces are over-polished, you'll remove the small microscopic grooves that retain oil, leaving a metal to metal surface. the coefficient of friction w/o lube is significantly higher.
And... don't grind down the leaf spring tension screw residing in the bottom front of the frame's grip. It is about the quickest way to induce single action pushoff.

 

[ms]

push-off

I have a couple of guns that I've set up for competition with very light springs. Neither has push-off with heavy thumb pressure. I think that proper sear and hammer geometry prevent push-off, and that heavier springs may mask a push-off issue, but not correct it.

 

[NYlakesider]

Back when the cops were carrying revolvers and PPC was a big thing lots of guns were "home smithed" I did a bunch of my own guns and also worked on a quite a few that belong to friends from the gun club.

This was in the era before the spring kits came out and I had the opportunity to learn such techniques from a buddy who was a S&W armour of his 120 man cop shop.

You wanted to work on the trigger pull for lighter and smother you had no choice you clipped the coils( that is both the return spring and the hammer spring in a J Frame.) You clipped the trigger return and either carefully bent the spring or carefully cut down the strain screw on the bigger frame guns (YOU NEVER LETT IT NOT FULLY TIGHTENED IN). A good polishing of the inners and you had a nicely working gun. Your working mantra was GO SLOW ITS FASTER

For a few months I worked down the road from S&W in Mass, and I picked up a bunch of parts including what they then call Ranger triggers which were great for a carry or PPC gun so I replace the stock stuff and did my surgery on the parts I got from S&W. My first guns I worked on original parts, but after I got a bit smarter and did the change first trick. Save the stock stuff in a plastic bag with the guns info on it.

That was then and being I have not done a gun in a few years and spring kits are now available just yesterday I went to the LGS and bought a coupe and will take the lazy way out as far as springs go. No SAFE shortcuts available for polishing operations. No more cutting springs for me (at least as far as working on S&W Revs.

 

[tomcatt51]

I have a couple of guns that I've set up for competition with very light springs. Neither has push-off with heavy thumb pressure. I think that proper sear and hammer geometry prevent push-off, and that heavier springs may mask a push-off issue, but not correct it.

And we have a winner!!!

Absolutely correct!!!

Push-off is purely a sear/notch issue. If you have good surfaces you can REMOVE the rebound spring and not have push-off. Heavier springs will only mask, NOT FIX, a sear/notch issue

 

[tomcatt51]

or carefully cut down the strain screw on the bigger frame guns (YOU NEVER LETT IT NOT FULLY TIGHTENED IN).

Why? Please explain to me why this is necessary...

I want my strain screws to stay in the position I set them in. I normally use 8-32 socket set screws and loctite. They don't move in service. Fact is I've found the 8-32 socket set screws tend to stay put better, without loctite, than S&Ws' stainless strain screws that have been "properly fully tightened".

Please tell me how screwing the strain screw in or out (aside from being more convenient) is functionally different from replacing it with a longer or shorter strain screw.

I just don't get the "fully tightened" mantra. One thing I'm sure of is that the only "fully tightened" strain screws that stay put are the loctited ones and even then the stainless ones just mushroom their tips and become effectively shorter in service.

 

[getoff]

cutting down the main spring is the shade tree mechanic version of a "trigger job". a quick job with a set of stones will do the same job if not better. get an apex kit or a set of wolff springs. please don't cut the spring... do it right.

 

[tomcatt51]

Regarding polishing leaf type mainspring surfaces- if engaging surfaces are over-polished, you'll remove the small microscopic grooves that retain oil, leaving a metal to metal surface. the coefficient of friction w/o lube is significantly higher.

Please explain what leaf spring surface in a S&W revolver this might apply to? I'd really like to know...

 

[tomcatt51]

cutting down the main spring is the shade tree mechanic version of a "trigger job". a quick job with a set of stones will do the same job if not better. get an apex kit or a set of wolff springs. please don't cut the spring... do it right.

What kind of DA pull weights do you get in a J frame when you "do it right" this way?

A clipped mainspring, if you slide the clipped end on first, seats very nicely on the J frame strut...

 

[NYlakesider]

Why? Please explain to me why this is necessary...

I want my strain screws to stay in the position I set them in. I normally use 8-32 socket set screws and loctite. They don't move in service. Fact is I've found the 8-32 socket set screws tend to stay put better, without loctite, than S&Ws' stainless strain screws that have been "properly fully tightened".

Please tell me how screwing the strain screw in or out (aside from being more convenient) is functionally different from replacing it with a longer or shorter strain screw.

I just don't get the "fully tightened" mantra. One thing I'm sure of is that the only "fully tightened" strain screws that stay put are the loctited ones and even then the stainless ones just mushroom their tips and become effectively shorter in service.

BOLDED above --- me too!



Hopefully I'm answering what you asked. I have seen a few home work guns that were not done too well and were experiencing some no fires. They had the stock spring in place but the screw backed out to effect a lighter pull. That might be ok for a range only gun but not for a gun that might be needed for real.

My S&W cop amourer friend taught me to always make sure the spring/screw was in tight.

The only way back then was to do your own work on the springs (No kits back then). In some cases the strain screw was careful shortened a bit to lighten the pull, but in fully so that it would not loosen. You had to work slow and careful as removing is easy but lengthen is not. Not a fan of shimming with a used primer, make sure the screw is right length and put in good.

That was the way I was taught and I have some of my 70s circa guns so done and the screw never worked its way lose.

FWIW i just went and checked 2 of my oldest(work done mid 70s) and thay are in solid (15 2'' & a 28 6'')

 

[rog8732]

I see we have a few comments about flat springs among the main discussion of coils, pertaining to S&W.

I think that the smoothing and polish of flat springs is considered most often as the final prep before heat treating and proper quenching, when you have to hand-make a new flat spring.
Seems the near-microscopic pits and scratches will likely be the breaking point. Most factory springs under a magnifying glass, will indicate a stamped out spring with little, if any polish.

I can't see where much advantage from polish would be gained on a Smith,flat spring since there is not really a "bearing" surface except at the contact point of the hook with the stirrup,...but, I don't see any disadvantage either, and there is always the satisfaction of smoothing all the interior parts as best you can.

When you look at the flat mainspring on a Smith, it, (as Jerry K notes) is "pulling" the hammer forward, not pushing, and rotation is within the hammer stirrup

 

[Gaffer23]

I have a 60 no dash with the heaviest trigger pull I've even encountered.

If you know someone with a Nagant 7.62 revolver, ask them to let you try the pull. It's the Russian gas seal revolver that has the bullets seated all the way inside the rim of the casing.

I tried to measure the pull on mine but the pull required maxed out the gauge I have. The spring is so tight because it keeps the cylinder pressed up against the barrel/forcing cone (cylinder is actually recessed to fit over the end of the barrel) when firing.

 

[lebomm]

When the strain screw is fully tightened, the friction, or "bind" if you will, of the screw head in its recess holds the screw in position. When backed off, the only tension is that applied by the mainspring, and borne by the threads of the strain screw. Under that condition, the screw can back out from the vibration of firing. hth

Larry