Why Is It Taught Not To Use Reloads For Self Defense?

[mikld]

FWIW; I started shooting centerfire cartridges in '68 and reloading in late '69. Ninety percent of my reloading/shooting was with handguns (and 99% of those were revolvers). I cannot remember a failure to fire with any factory ammo, and one squib, in '70. I can not even guess how many rounds I have reloaded and fired but since 1970 I have not had any rounds fail to go bang. I know that sounds questionable, but I learned about proper primer seating, and checking every powder charge from the one squib I had and I make sure every round I produce has powder and a nicely seated primer. I use handloads for my SD guns because I trust my ammo and the performance I build in...

This issue can be interesting/entertaining for maybe the first dozen posts but nothing new is ever posted (some are a good laugh, some leave me just shaking my head). But having read this issue since I started looking in on reloading forums in 2007, out of the thousands of threads there has never been a consensus reached on the subject...

 

[Jellybean]

This subject has been beat to death on this and many other forums and they always seem to go back to one article written by Masaad Ayoob. There was a lot he didn't mention in that article and some he might have accidentally added that didn't happen, he was on here several times personally and blamed it on the editors.

Check your local and state laws regarding your rights to self defense and CCW to make sure there is nothing that prohibits you from carrying reloads. If there is no law against it you have the right to carry any kind of ammunition you want. CCW laws are intended to give you the right to protect yourself from death or serious physical harm and if you have the right to use deadly force it doesn't matter if it's a .22 or an atomic bomb, as long as you're legally permitted to have it at the time.

The question in civilian self defense shootings focuses on if you had the right to use deadly force to protect an innocent life. When people get into trouble in civilian self defense shootings it's usually because they used deadly force after the threat was over. It amazes me how many people argue over the use of reloads but everyone seems to have trouble understanding when to stop shooting.

 

[Wise_A]

And precedent is created in the appeal.

This is sort of bizarre, because it's like you're asking for a situation where someone appealed based on an objection to the prosecution's "lulz evil handloader" argument, and then had the conviction upheld. It's like you're asking to find diamonds in your septic tank. I mean, aside from the wide latitude given to closing arguments.

Besides, strict legality isn't the point. Does the "evil handloader" argument trick stupid jurors? Of course it does. So don't leave the bell out to be rung.

And again--every dumb thing your lawyer has to fight for you is gonna cost you money.

SIDE NOTE: Not even baiting Muss with that last one, but hey, if he wants to go for it...

SIDE NOTE OF SIDE NOTE: Is that last one bait? Who knows!

 

[WR Moore]

Check your local and state laws regarding your rights to self defense and CCW to make sure there is nothing that prohibits you from carrying reloads. If there is no law against it you have the right to carry any kind of ammunition you want.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it a bright idea. (Riding a motorcycle in a helmet, Speedo and flip flops comes to mind.) Mas does a lot of use of force cases as an expert witness. To the point where he's probably done more than most attorneys. I'd give his suggestion to avoid hand loads as defensive ammunition great weight*. Also, remember the aftermath of self defense is 3 stages. You have to satisfy the police and the DA in the possible criminal matter. Then there's the civil action by the "victim" or their estate for damages. The standards of proof are different as is the needed jury vote.

I took two great lessons from my Constitutional Law class. One of which was "Don't be a test case."

*"Deadly Force, Understanding Your Right to Self Defense", pgs 217-218

 

[Chuck24]

Thought this would be at least ten pages by now.

 

[riverrat38]

Two things that I don't want to be named after me:
1) A new disease.
2) A failed legal defense.
No, I'm neither a medical researcher, nor a defense attorney!

Best,
Rick

 

[biku324]

This is sort of bizarre, because it's like you're asking for a situation where someone appealed based on an objection to the prosecution's "lulz evil handloader" argument, and then had the conviction upheld. It's like you're asking to find diamonds in your septic tank. I mean, aside from the wide latitude given to closing arguments.

Besides, strict legality isn't the point. Does the "evil handloader" argument trick stupid jurors? Of course it does. So don't leave the bell out to be rung.

And again--every dumb thing your lawyer has to fight for you is gonna cost you money.

SIDE NOTE: Not even baiting Muss with that last one, but hey, if he wants to go for it...

SIDE NOTE OF SIDE NOTE: Is that last one bait? Who knows!

The way the system works is that if you believe you were wrongly convicted, you can appeal. It is in courts of intermediate or final appeals that precedent is made. Again, I am aware of no case wherein an appellate court has ruled one way or another on the use of reloads when the affirmative defense of 'self-defense' was raised (unsuccessfully).

 

[Muss Muggins]

I truly don't understand anything you typed below. if you have a point that I'm supposed to agree or disagree with, I don't see one, so since there's nothing to grab on to, I'll simply respond with "Duly noted . . . "

This is sort of bizarre, because it's like you're asking for a situation where someone appealed based on an objection to the prosecution's "lulz evil handloader" argument, and then had the conviction upheld. It's like you're asking to find diamonds in your septic tank. I mean, aside from the wide latitude given to closing arguments.

Besides, strict legality isn't the point. Does the "evil handloader" argument trick stupid jurors? Of course it does. So don't leave the bell out to be rung.

And again--every dumb thing your lawyer has to fight for you is gonna cost you money.

SIDE NOTE: Not even baiting Muss with that last one, but hey, if he wants to go for it...

SIDE NOTE OF SIDE NOTE: Is that last one bait? Who knows!

 

[buck460XVR]

Why Is It Taught Not To Use Reloads For Self Defense?

I've never really seen it taught, only suggested. Basically the suggestion originated from a guy who is sponsored by ammo manufacturers. Lottsa reasons given, none really pertinent other than money in his pocket.

 

[Daniel Howe]

I think its pathetic that so many people fall for that internet rumor about lawyers and hand loads. If you don't trust your reloads for self defense then your doing it wrong and need to stop reloading before you hurt yourself. How many of you carry an automatic for self defense? Did you every stop to think that an automatic having a feed problem are much higher than your odds of finding a squib round? I carry a revolver and my hand loads and I know for a fact if I pull the trigger its going to work just fine.

 

[Walkingwolf]

There are a lot of things a attorney might try to pick apart in everyday living that might be used in a trial. In the case of George Zimmerman it was martial arts training, the attempt to use that failed. It may not fail the next time, I suggest all of those of you who intend to carry a firearm for self defense do NOT take martial arts training.

Sarcasm alert for the bold.

 

[mikld]

You folks can do whatever you want, but I do not carry reloads for self defense. One of the main reasons given is that if your defense team has to duplicate your load for test purposes, it might be impossible. However, if you are shooting RP, WW or Federal factory, it is quite easy to match that particular lot. This data can be used to show distance, etc.

Not to say that if I am at the range or coming home and I am forced to use a reload, I would not hesitate to do so.

If you are involved, you want as many things as possible on your side and as few as possible against you.

You mention "defense team", which I figger is your lawyers when you are charged with a crime. I am able to duplicate loads, no problem as I do it all the time. If by some wild stretch of the imagination someone wanted to duplicate/test a lod, 25-50 fps won't matter. But, I have never heard of any "case" against a handloader using handloads for his SD. All this "OMG, handloads will get you in prison" is plain speculation, aka WAGs...

 

[max503]

Massad Ayoob recommended finding out what your local PD uses and using the civilian legal version of that.

I don't believe everything he says.

If I ever get dragged into court it is going to come out that I'm a gun person. It's a salient feature of who I am and always have been. I might as well use reloads and save me some money.

 

[buck460XVR]

You folks can do whatever you want, but I do not carry reloads for self defense. One of the main reasons given is that if your defense team has to duplicate your load for test purposes, it might be impossible. However, if you are shooting RP, WW or Federal factory, it is quite easy to mat

The problem with the Daniel Bias case and the inability to determine distance the gun was fired from, came down to there was no way to determine which reloads were fired in the gun. Bias claimed he had several different powder charges in the box that he loaded the gun with. If one keeps records, and has other similar rounds, it's no different than factory as far as determining distance or duplicating. Besides, it wasn't the prosecutor using the unknown distance, it was the defense and not being able to determine it, got his client found not guilty of murder. IOWs, the reloads were the saving grace, not the downfall. Lotta if and maybes with Ayoob's condescension of using reloads for SD. But even after 30 years of him preaching doom and gloom, no one has been convicted of a bad shoot because of the use of handloads. 30 years ago, Castle Doctrine and stand your ground were virtually unheard of. We've come a long way since then.

BTW....my local DA tells me he uses his handloads in his bedside gun. What does that tell you?

One needs to use what they are comfortable with, have confidence in and what they are proficient with. For me, this is my handloads. Others are free to feel differently.

 

[Wise_A]

I've never really seen it taught, only suggested. Basically the suggestion originated from a guy who is sponsored by ammo manufacturers. Lottsa reasons given, none really pertinent other than money in his pocket.

When you can't attack the argument, attack the source. But hey, let's go with your premise.

If that's the case, why are the nationally-known, top-shelf armed self-defense lawyers universal in advising against handloaded defensive ammunition? I mean, aside from all the nationally recognized instructors that also think it's a terrible idea.

The problem with the Daniel Bias case and the inability to determine distance the gun was fired from, came down to there was no way to determine which reloads were fired in the gun. Bias claimed he had several different powder charges in the box that he loaded the gun with. If one keeps records, and has other similar rounds, it's no different than factory as far as determining distance or duplicating.

No prosecutor is going to give a wet fart about your "records" or whatever other ammunition you happen to have lying around.

Like Paul Harrell says on his Youtube chanel, is not “hyper” ammunition simply hype to sell product? So, what is the deal here? Thanks for the help.

YouTube

When Harrell refers to "hyper" ammunition, he's talking about garbage like this:

And yes, I realize I just insulted a bunch of people's ammo choices. Too bad, so sad. If it helps, I think that it honestly doesn't matter what you shoot so long as it penetrates with enough leftover energy to break whatever Important Things it hits...oh, damn, wait, the G2 RIP garbage doesn't even do that right. So if you use that, yes, I think you should feel a little bad.

This stuff is freakin' expensive. G2 RIP is $1.95 a round on Lucky Gunner right now. Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator (or whatever it's called) is going for $1.52 a round on their site. Hell, Midway sells the Xtreme Whatever 9mm bullets for $0.60 each! That's more than I spend to reload an entire 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridge!

On the other hand, you can hop over to LG and grab a box of Speer Gold Dot 147-grain +P. Even though it's still a premium self-defense brand, you can expend to spend no more than $0.90 a round. That's half the price of the Goofy Bullets, from a company with more than half a century spent making ammunition for the defensive and law enforcement markets.

PS--AA, I'd suggest adding the "self-defense" thread topic to the banned list. Dunno how many of these you've read, but this is pretty much how it goes. This one isn't even as cancer-tier as the others, which is saying something.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I tried to keep this thread open hoping it would not go south like these threads always do. This one is getting close to breaking down so we are done here so no one gets hurt.

I'm sure the OP got all the information wanted and more.