Why the decline of S&W 40?

[Cal44]

Although I'm a revolver enthusiast, I'm hearing a lot that the 40 S&W is out of favor nowadays.

I thought it was the ideal police cartridge with more than adequate power and excellent platforms to shoot it in.

What are the reasons for this pistol cartridge's decline?

Not long ago, I went into Turner's just to see what was on sale. They tend to have really good one day sales on one or two models of guns.

Anyway, they had a great sale (I don't remember the price), on a GP-100 Ruger in 10mm. It used moon clips, and would also shoot 40 S&W.

Now that looked like a really nice revolver. And, the particular display gun had a great trigger.

I'd love to have one of those, but I didn't buy it. I have too many guns already, and not enough money...

40 S&W would likely be a great revolver cartridge, just like 45 ACP is.

I never had a 40 S&W gun until recently, but now have two that I bought since 40 went out of style.

A Glock 27 (which I like) and a Kahr PM40. The Kahr was purchased new for $425. Good time to pick up a 40 cal or two if you can spare the funds.

 

[Old Corp]

Half-a-wave of nostalgia reading all this - if you'll recall this sorta stuff used to sell gun mags..... Author vs. author, and caliber vs. caliber, and revolver vs. auto....LE viewpoints vs. outdoorsmen viewpoints, etc, etc.

I have far too many 9mm's. Enjoy most of'em and carry everything from my only 'tiny 9', a Kahr PM9 when the weather dictates shorts and t-shirts, to HKP7, BHP, Colt Combat Commander, M&P compact, G19, and embarrassed to list any more....

Next up the line in autos - well, all my .40's are 10mm's.
A M1076 and Colt DE in SS.
Strangely enough, the 1076 will function and run with .40's, but only learned that from brief experimentation. I have plenty of old 10mm duty ammo that was the 'Lite' 180 gr. JHP at 950 fps - so guess that counts as my 'sorta .40'.

I missed out on the huge outbreak of rave over the .45 GAP, but have enough N frame .45 ACP revolvers that if I ever encountered a bunch of that ammo, guess I could shoot it up.

In .45 ACP self-loaders, oh, various M1911's in 3", 4.25", 5", a M&P mid-size, the old duty M4566.

Just don't see a .40 in my future making any real meaningful contribution.

 

[CH4]

Ain't dead and never will be. The FBI will get into a shootout with a renegade band cookie-selling Girl Scouts where they get their asses handed to em. Within a month they'll be back to the 40 and state and local agencies will soon follow.

 

[rosewood]

I keep hearing that bullet technology has improved and made the 9mm better since the 40 S&W came out and replaced it. What technology has changed? From my memory, the same bullets available for the 9mm in 1990 or so is still being used today are they not? Sure there some of these new fandangled fragmenting bullets and super penetrators, but the standard XTP, Gold DOt, Hydra shock etc, weren't they available back then? And are they really that much better now if not?

Rosewood

 

[Bladeswitcher]

So, what happened to the billions of rounds of .40S&W ordered by Government agencies? . . .

As I recall, that wasn't an order. It was a request for bids. They were seeking a manufacturer who would agree to make that amount of ammo available, and at what price.

Perhaps they got the bids and didn't like the price. Could that have anything to do with the shift toward 9mm? Could it really be that simple?

 

[rosewood]

in .40 KURZ!!

I thought it was a 10mm Kurz?

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I have a 9 for a range gun. Cheap to shoot whether you reload or not, accurate, mild recoil, just a nice range gun. I wouldn't feel under gunned with my 9 but I would prefer my 40 or 45ACP if the SHTF. Actually, if the SHTF a 357 with 125 JHP would be my first choice. That may change after I get a 357SIG barrel for my P229.

Actually the SHASHTF and my first choice is two ply.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

LE having established there is minimal lethality difference between current 9mm and .40 when accurately placed, why not switch to the round with less recoil and additional capacity?

Especially when factoring what is now a far more diverse group in LE, many of them meeting only minimal fitness standards, and the only handgun they ever shoot is a duty weapon when requalifying.

A recently retired LEO friend and avid shooter said in his first decades on the force he routinely shot at the range with fellow officers when off duty, in his last decade far fewer officers used the range on their own time.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...y-agreements-disagreements.html#post140727694

Read my post #14 YOU HAVE TO HIT THE BEAR. In Law enforcement add "with as little cost to the taxpayer as humanly possible". Bears-bad guys same principles apply

 

[Dave Lively]

I keep hearing that bullet technology has improved and made the 9mm better since the 40 S&W came out and replaced it. What technology has changed? From my memory, the same bullets available for the 9mm in 1990 or so is still being used today are they not? Sure there some of these new fandangled fragmenting bullets and super penetrators, but the standard XTP, Gold DOt, Hydra shock etc, weren't they available back then? And are they really that much better now if not?

Rosewood

I don't recall Gold Dot and XTP showing up until later in the 90s but I think HydraShocks were available back then. What changed was in the 80s and early 90s there was a heavy emphasis on expansion and even fragmentation over penetration.

Silvertips had a great reputation because they expanded more reliably than older HP designs. That expansion came at the cost of less penetration which lead to the failure in the Florida shootout that prompted the FBI to look for something better. At the time the best way to ensure deep penetrations was with a heavy, slower moving bullet. At the time I remember a lot of my fellow gun enthusiasts and magazine writers going on about the larger diameter but the FBI being mostly concerned about penetration.

Modern bullets like Gold Dots often have the jacket bonded to the core which helps with penetration. But the biggest change was not radical new technology but different design goals. Bullets don't over expand and fail to penetrate as much as they used to. Most likely this is the result of harder lead alloys which is not high tech but effective.

 

[rosewood]

I thought the guys in the Florida Shootout had body armor on? Would a better bullet had solved that issue?

Rosewood

 

[sigp220.45]

I thought the guys in the Florida Shootout had body armor on? Would a better bullet had solved that issue?

Rosewood

If you mean the 4/11/86 shootout in Miami - neither of the bad guys wore body armor.

 

[URIT]

The guys in the Florida shootout were trained to double-tap to center mass. Hopefully, we've learned that center mass isn't always the best choice.

 

[swsig]

Just as well, I heard that S&W stopped chambering the M&P Series in .357 SIG because they kept getting them sent in for service by the Texas Rangers, and has subsequently gone on to advise against converting the M&P to .357 SIG using aftermarket conversion barrels. Which is a shame because apparently those who own them swear by them, so I guess they either don't hold up well to extensive use or otherwise some of the more *ahem* "equal opportunity employees" within the Texas Rangers were limp-wristing them.

My experience is that my M&P 40c has held up very well as a .357 SIG. It has over 2,500 .357 SIG rounds though it without any issues, after firing over 13,000 rounds of .40 S&W. You can read a more detailed report on my 40c here:
Long-Term Report on M&P 40c, Shield 9, & Shield 45

As to the Texas Rangers, I would be surprised if a Texas Ranger limp wristed anything. Rangers are a small, elite group within the Texas Department of Public Safety, responsible for carrying out criminal investigations that other agencies can't solve. Now, it's possible that the DPS's other major law enforcement group, the Texas Highway Patrol, had M&P issues, because they are a much larger organization.

 

[rosewood]

If you mean the 4/11/86 shootout in Miami - neither of the bad guys wore body armor.

That must have been the shootout in Hollywood?? I am thinking about?

 

[sigp220.45]

That must have been the shootout in Hollywood?? I am thinking about?

Oh yeah - those boys had all kinds of body armor on.

 

[Ranger514]

I duty carried a Sig P229 .40 cal. from 1995 to 2015, and never had an issue until the extractor broke after somewhere over 20K rounds of 180 gr. HP had passed through the bore. I was a firearms instructor and Sig armorer, and I never felt the .40 P229 had excesive recoil in comparison to 9mm, nor did the.40 cal. create undo damage to Sig frames or other components.

Funny how the .40 became the latest/greatest after the 9mm was judged ineffective. Now, the tables are turned. Like the weather, more changes will occur, and the .40 cal. isn't dead yet.

 

[Dave Lively]

I thought the guys in the Florida Shootout had body armor on? Would a better bullet had solved that issue? Rosewood

If they were wearing body armor a 40 would not have solved the issue either.

 

[rosewood]

If they were wearing body armor a 40 would not have solved the issue either.

Nope, only a rifle would have turned the tides.

 

[Gas tube]

I would buy a 40 before a 9mm

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Harder for some to shoot well and it not the newest flavor on the list . I don't own one anymore but it's because I did not like the pistol I bought not the cartridge . Would not hesitate to buy one if I found one with a trigger pull I could stomach .