Win 231 to be discontinued in the future (not sure when)...

[Rule3]

Same here. I gave up on Hodgdon (ADI) a few years ago. ADI's an Australian co. and not marketing powder for the US. Hodgdon brought it in and relabeled it. They are basically powder distributors, not manufacturers.

From ADI's website.
Powder equivalents, ADI Powders Handloaders' Guide

Where you see an ADI/Hodgdon equivalent, ADI makes that powder.

Alliant has for years made powder that is great for some applications but they have never marketed those powders or tested and provided load data. When the powder shortage hit people started trying all kinds of powders for cartridges that weren't even listed in the mfg. load data. When I ran out of Bullseye I found that American Select makes a pretty good 45 ACP hardball load. It also works well for 38 spl. but was originally marketed as a 12ga shotgun powder. It doesn't meter as well as BE but it burns a lot cleaner.

I use Alliant for everything I shoot now because it seems to be more available then the rest.

If you look at the above chart Alliant e3 will sub for W231.

NO, that is not correct!

The powder equivalent chart is only powders that are similar

AP5ON is NOT HP38 nor is it AA2

The only powders MADE by ADI and that are the same are the ones I posted in the letter from ADI above in my previous post.#19

Someone is going to screw up and substitute a powder for something it is not. It is equivalent chart not a substitution.

 

[rwsmith]

Why are the companies....

Why are the powder companies so dang secret about of this? It's causing people to speculate where a little information forthcoming would stop rumors, allow people to plan and not have to deal with 'substituting', which is the most serious in my book. Don't just say 'newer powders'. They know what powders they are discontinuing and what they are close to. They know one HECK of a lot more than we do. Is just picking one off the burn chart that's closest to the discontinued powder, or does one actually have characteristics similar to the discontinued powder.

 

[AveragEd]

This new methodology thing is for real and it's the reason IMR PB, SR4756, SR4759, WW AA Lite and a few other powders are no longer made. Even with their higher prices, sales were not good enough to justify making them for the small profit they were generating.

As far as what powders can safely replace discontinued ones, PLEASE contact the powder manufacturers directly. They will be glad to point you in the right direction. I've often written that handloaders who are experimenting with powders and powder charges should wear a sign stating, "BALLISTICS EXPERIMENT IN PROCESS - STAND CLEAR!"

Witnessing a gun exploding once is all you need to understand what can happen.

Ed

 

[Rule3]

I would be happy to just see some old tech handgun powders around

I have enough but it will not last forever.

Alliant will probably only make BE 86 as the one powder that does everything!

 

[LostintheOzone]

I said

Where you see an ADI/Hodgdon equivalent, ADI makes that powder.

You said

The only powders MADE by ADI and that are the same are the ones I posted in the letter from ADI above in my previous post.#19

That was my error. Thanks for correcting that. They only make some of those powders as you stated.

I wasn't trying to imply that they were the same powder and should be used with the same load data. All I was trying to say was different powders will do the same job if you use reliable load data. I called Alliant when I "substituted" AS for BE for 45 ACP. They gave me the green light and gave me load data.

Many people have done this and had no problems.

Reloaders should have the basic understanding that every powder has a different burn rate and pressure profile. If they fail to understand this, which you seem to think they might, they missed a very important and basic concept of reloading.

You can't protect everyone from themselves all of the time.

 

[Green Frog]

AveragEd has summed it up well... I was disappointed to hear that my favorite classic rifle powder, 4759 had been discontinued. I have about 10-12 pounds of it accumulated, and so will be able to shoot it in my 32-40s, 38-55s and 45-70s for a while, but I guess I need to get a substitute figured out in the meanwhile. I made the "mistake" of falling in love with the Hogdon surplus powder, H-108 for use in several specialty loads, then it ran out, but since I have about 20# of that "in stock" and loads run in the 10 to 12 grain range, I'll be OK. I'm sorry about HP38/Win 231 as they do great in my 38 special loads from the Dillon Progressive, but we shall see what comes out of the darkness to replace them. I'm pretty conncerned about the lack of original Bullseye... there are lots of powders that purport to be "almost the same" as Bullseye, but there's nothing quite the same for target loads, and getting Unique has been a major challenge around here for at least 2-3 years. The whole powder situation is just too frustrating to deal with now and when stuff I have accumulated runs out, Im not sure what I'm going to do.

 

[Rule3]

I said



You said


That was my error. Thanks for correcting that. They only make some of those powders as you stated.

I wasn't trying to imply that they were the same powder and should be used with the same load data. All I was trying to say was different powders will do the same job if you use reliable load data. I called Alliant when I "substituted" AS for BE for 45 ACP. They gave me the green light and gave me load data.

Many people have done this and had no problems.

Reloaders should have the basic understanding that every powder has a different burn rate and pressure profile. If they fail to understand this, which you seem to think they might, they missed a very important and basic concept of reloading.

You can't protect everyone from themselves all of the time.

I only posted for clarification.

Unfortunately there are many that do not understand this.

It is not protecting people it is trying to prevent internet posts from causing confusion and errors. There was a poster who stated he had no need for manuals as it is all on the internet, well good luck to him.

Read a lot of threads here and elsewhere and you certainly know what I mean. Heck there is confusion over fast vs slow powders.

No offense to anyone but with so many new reloaders many who do not even buy a manual, they only want to know how much if xyz do I use to shoot this xyz bullet.

The ADI chart is not a direct substitution chart. 5 grains of HP 38 does not equal 5 grains of any powder along that same line in the chart, They are close but not exact, only based on relative burn rate which is a whole other area of confusion. Just because a powder is number 3 does not mean that 2 or 4 is the same or "close enough".

 

[Moe Mentum]

Haven't been able to get any in the last few years anyway, so for me , its already gone. I replaced it with Red Dot, it still goes bang...

 

[LostintheOzone]

The ADI chart is not a direct substitution chart. 5 grains of HP 38 does not equal 5 grains of any powder along that same line in the chart, They are close but not exact, only based on relative burn rate which is a whole other area of confusion. Just because a powder is number 3 does not mean that 2 or 4 is the same or "close enough".

The chart does not claim to be that. I posted it in it's entirety.

It says;

NOTE: These tables are only approximate, showing equivalent values within about 5%.

Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, weapon, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to powder lot.

If ones reading comprehension skills are lacking they probably shouldn't be reloading.

 

[rwsmith]

I found out....

Haven't been able to get any in the last few years anyway, so for me , its already gone. I replaced it with Red Dot, it still goes bang...

I found out that I LIKE Red Dot.

I don't have ANY powders that won't do the job but being in a constant state of testing loads is a pain in the butt.

 

[rwsmith]

Me disappointed too

AveragEd has summed it up well... I was disappointed to hear that my favorite classic rifle powder, 4759 had been discontinued.

I've been into extra light loads with a light cast bullets and 4759 does a fantastic job, I've got a few pounds and I hope all of these purported 'new powders' that are right around the corner will do as well.

 

[daniel lawecki]

I first thought about the reduction of powders awhile back. Looking at the burn rate chart there are several at on near the same. Based on that I feel over the next few years there will be a lot of changes. Companies are about the bottom line which is profit and cost. As for me lately Titegroup has been my go to powder in .38 - .45acp -.45lc and some mild .44 loads all with cast bullets. With very good results the .44 loads out to 100 yards.

 

[rwsmith]

Oh, I didn't mean.....

I didn't mean in my above post that we should 'pick the closest stuff off the burn chart' without working up with good data, which is a ridiculous proposition and why this thread is valuable. It's just that what they are saying is the equivalent of, "Oh, just pick a close powder."

 

[daniel lawecki]

All Of my loads are worked up and records of said loads are kept on a per gun bases as I own guns of the same caliber but different manufacturers.

 

[Nemo288]

No more 231? My .44 Special really likes it, but I'm running low. When that is gone, I guess I'll have to try something else. I don't see it as the end of the world. My .44 will just have to get used to something else.

The 44 spl in particular will shoot well with darn near any powder from titewad to 4227.
Which ones burn cleanest and most uniformly at 15Kpsi (or less) are still being established as they come and go.
Many (most?) are shotgun powders as they also operate in this pressure regime.
My favorite one WAS Universal and I am waiting for it's promised replacement but not with bated breath.
I have enough CSB-1 to last me years.
And no it doesn't drop right in as some mis-information floating around suggests.
My tests indicate CSB-1 is quite a bit faster.

There are also some of us, obviously a minority, that LIKE to work up loads.
Sometimes with combinations never tried before.
This requires starting at pressures needed to just get the bullet out of the barrel (~500 fps) and working up from there.
Keeps me busy.
Making major in an auto is a whole 'nuther ball game and one I don't pursue.
I would hesitate to go "off the books" with that.

As has been pointed out in some of the powder shortage threads of the last few years,
supplying powder to us reloaders is a very small part of their business.
Other than Hodgdon, they could make out pretty well without doing so at all.

Just be glad we HAVE powder that works and is flowing to us faster every day now.

 

[Biggfoot44]

One more variable on 231 specifically. Whenever aan ammo shortage , a number of shooters decide to take up reloading. They ask around "What's a good powder for xyz ? " , and "What's a good powder for versatile for lots of different cals ?" . They will get multiple recomendations for a handful of old favorites, and they are now snatching it up also.

That said , I like 231, and it is one of my default powders. I fear that I would need two powders to replace it.

Never say Always , but virtually every shotgun powder is also have at least some useage in revolvers. The limiting factor is published load data.

Even before the shortages Vn Powders were seldom seen in my region , and expensive. AA availity has been "medium" .

 

[X Ring]

It is just a rumor and nothing is official.

 

[dpop24]

I stumbled upon 4 cans of HP38 at my LGS last month. They were overpriced at $40 a pound, but I picked them up anyway since I hadn't seen any in 2 years. That should last me long. Enough to find a suitable replace powder.

 

[swamprabbit]

I picked up some HP38 a couple of months ago for a decent price. At the time it was showing up at least once a week online. If you look hard you can find some floating around now online but it ain't cheap. I loaded up on 7625 a while back but 231 and HP38 are my go to powders for most of the handgun calibers I load for. The 7625 works good for 45 auto and that is what I use it for primarily. I am not a young buck anymore and one thing that has been a constant in my life is, about the time I find something I like and get used to it they discontinue it and replace it with the new improved version. Sometimes it really is an improvement but most times not so much. One thing I am pretty sure of is handloaders will find a way to load. So let em eat.

 

[Hasbeen1945]

Just got an email from LGS. They just got in HP 38 and 231. So it's still available. For those close to Houston its Big Guys in pearland.