Win 231 to be discontinued in the future (not sure when)...

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opus1776

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Found this post on another board and thought I would pass the info along......


Received this email today in response to an inquiry about Win231 Powder.
"Winchester 231 certainly has been hard to get. The plant that makes Winchester powders does not want to make 231 as well as a few other powders. These older technology powders have different chemistry than the new powders and this older chemistry makes it much slower to make powder: basically, you can make about 2.5 times as many pounds of new chemistry powder in the time it takes to make 1 pound of old chemistry powder. During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased.
Now, we are kind of stuck in the middle. The market is demanding 231 but the maker is not wanting to produce the powder. The result is, over time, 231 is going to go away. Shooters should begin using other powders as they can.
Mike Daly
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder"

linky:

LIMITED POWDER READ THIS
 
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Hodgon HP-38 is supposed to be the same powder so, I would think that it is also on the hit list. I lucked into a pound of HP-38 today, first I've seen in many months.
 
I assumed it and HP38 have been discontinued. I haven't been able to get it for a few years now. I moved on to BE-86.
 
I believe that the plant in question is ADI in Australia and they have been slowly re-tooling all of their production. So, I expect that in time we will see more of these types of announcements. Personally I hope that H110 won't get caught up in these "adjustments" because it would be distinctly difficult to find anything that matches the metering quality and near ideal burn rate of H110 in certain types of loads.

I would also like to express a bit of disappointment in Hodgdon because they constantly imply that they actually make smokeless powders when in fact all they do is re-package product produced by others such as ADI.
 
Ok, so they dump w231 & HP38.

Does this company have a "New" ball powder that will replace it
that will give 97% of the fps and pressures?

Is Alliant BE-86 a Ball powder........ ?
Can it match w231 in performance and pressures ?

Is CFE pistol powder the only thing out there, from Hodgdon,
that will try to replace w231?

Looks like someone opened up a can of worms..........
 
scooter123 said:
I believe that the plant in question is ADI in Australia and they have been slowly re-tooling all of their production. So, I expect that in time we will see more of these types of announcements. Personally I hope that H110 won't get caught up in these "adjustments" because it would be distinctly difficult to find anything that matches the metering quality and near ideal burn rate of H110 in certain types of loads.
Click to expand...

H110 is made by General Dynamics in St Marks, FL, FYI. Not by ADI.
 
I don't care.....

I don't care AS LONG AS there are equal or better performers made in their place. Like so many things in America the answer to not being able to keep up with newer processes is either give up or let other countries do it.
 
You mean it's........

BigMoneyGrip said:
I assumed it and HP38 have been discontinued. I haven't been able to get it for a few years now. I moved on to BE-86.
Click to expand...

GASP! Really??? If the stuff exists you couldn't prove it by me because I've never seen any. Come to think of it, I haven't seen much of anything the last 2 1/2 years.
 
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Hopefully the supply of HP-38 that I have on hand will last until there is good data on the replacement powders. Better budget for some newer reloading manuals...
 
If we are to believe that the email response given in the OP actually is from Hodgdon, then we're going to have to just suck it up and live with it.

That really ticks me off, because I go to some trouble to test loads with a powder, and then I like to stick with it or I have to start all over again.
HP-38 has been my "go to" powder for pretty much ALL my pistol calibers, and while there may be a better powder for some of my uses, I am willing to overlook that if I get the accuracy I want (and I do) and universality of use with just the one powder.

Anyway, while there are no direct equivalents to HP-38, it looks to me that either Ramshot ZIP or Accurate #2 might be good candidates to replace HP-38 as being a good powder that should work well in all my semi-auto and revolver loads from 9mm to 44mag and everything in between.

What say you WHO HAVE USED THESE POWDERS? (I prefer not to have people who have not used them just repeat what they "heard" on the internet from other people who have not actually used these powders).
Real world examples of caliber, accuracy and power range would be nice.

I'd also like to hear from people who have already settled on other powders.
VihtaVouri N-320 seems like a good candidate, but it's really high $$$ and I'm not even willing to try it lest I get sucked into continually buying such an expensive powder.
Titegroup has been mentioned, but it seems to have a sensitive power range, and Unique sounds good as does Bullseye, but neither are applicable the range of calibers as ZIP and AA#2 seem to serve.

I'm thinking that we might as well turn this thread into a "solution" to the OP report rather than to grouse and complain about it.
 
I used W231/HP38 for decades. When the present shortage started, I had to start looking for alternatives. I use a pound of powder every 2 weeks so I go through a lot. I finally settled on Autocomp or CFE pistol. I actually like it better than 231/38, so much so that I traded my stock of it to a buddy for an equal amount of AC/CFE. I use the same powder to load 9mm in both minor and major power factor loads.
 
I like CFE Pistol and use it in 9mm, 40 S&W. 38 Special, and 45 ACP. I tried it in 357 mag but they were powder puff loads but would have been nice a practice loads. I have run all these across the chrono and liked the results. Wanted to try Autocomp and Power Pistol but have never found any. Don
 
I've been a fan of 231/HP38 for decades as well. Hard to find for sure lately.

So far I don't feel the love with my loads with CFE in 38/357/44. And not so sure about 9mm either.

Have stumbled upon WSF with great pleasure. Hadn't even seen that around for years.
 
I've used WW231 and WW296 for years, but stopped using other Winchester powders because of their nasty habit of discontinuing them shortly after introduction. I have partial cans of AA473, 540, and 630 and no data available to use them up.
 
aurora40 said:
H110 is made by General Dynamics in St Marks, FL, FYI. Not by ADI.
Click to expand...
I believe Ball powder is a trademark of St Marks Powder Company. Spherical powder is the same powder made for Hodgdon.

Tom
 
Win 231/HP38 is made in St Marks Florida not by ADI

Hodgdon/ADI branded powders are mostly all rifle powders except Trail Boss

Mike Daly used to post on this forum once in a while.
 

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Mike Daly is...

Mike Daly IS the director of customer service at Hodgdon.

I have a question though. What ARE the new powders he's talking about that we are supposed to move to?
 
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I am skeptical that they would discontinue one of the most popular powders on the market.

In the past I waffled between Bullseye and W231, and finally settled on Bullseye. The only area that I am not 100% satisfied with Bullseye is 230 gr hardball for my .45 auto, I think W231 may be a little better for that application.

I've wanted to try AA#2 and AA#5, but could never find them. I've pretty much settled on Alliant powders since Ive never had any trouble finding them.

I also have some Unique and Universal, but BE-86 may be a good replacement for .45 hardball loads. I have a 1# can of BE-86 that I will start on when my Unique and Universal is used up.

BE-86 is a very small flake, looks like Bullseye and 2400.
 
Hard to believe anyone would discontinue a product that is in such great demand. Kinda contradicts the whole theory of supply and demand. I assume that until the large market is gone for those old powders that they will continue to be produced. I also assume that there will be comparable substitutes introduced long before the older powders are discontinued.
 
I have been reloading for 40 odd years, but I am fairly new to pistol reloading. I came in with no preconceived notions of any powder.
I do have my favorites for rifle, so I know the feeling.
My father left me Bullseye, Unique, 2400, P5066, 231, and about 10 others.
I started buying my own powder, and bought most of the pistol powder made by Alliant, hodgdon, Accurate, Winchester. And just shot all of them to see. What I found out is most powders will do its job, but the BE86, CFE, and Autocomp keep coming back as the ones that are clean, and accurate, and can be used in any, but the full power loads.
I still use 2400, 296 for full power, but Autocomp, CFE, and BE86 can get you close to full power.

I don't need to replace 231, I have 20lbs of it, but I prefer to use BE86, CFE, and Autocomp, and sometimes WST. They are just as clean, and acccurate as 231.
BE86 is versatile enough to do away with Bullseye, and Unique.
I Have a sneaky suspicion that CFE, and Autocomp are sister powders, and the reason HS6 is going, is because it is too close to both.
For plinking there are probably 10 powders I can reach for that do just fine. No change in impact, or accuracy. Some may be dirtier, but I never cared about that, accuracy is still king.
 
Why not keep the Product and just raise the price a few bucks a Pound? Let the Customers tell You when it's time to throw in the Towel.
 
When CFE223 came out in 2012 I thought it was a gimmick.
Then the problems finding W231/HP-38 became a headache
[along with .22 rimfire] I was not sure who had the proper info
on the shortage, not that I could do anything about it.

Last year when they came out with CFE Pistol I dug out my thinking cap and dusted it off. First thought: They have taken the space to make the new powders in the space they made the W231......
I called Hodgdon and they denied it, and assured me that W231/HP-38 was still at full production, just everyone was buying it before I got to the store.....even though the 100's of people I know that use it couldn't find any...... !!!
My biggest concern was how it would meter in a 550B, and Hodgdon assured me it would as well as W231.
Next there was limited data, basically four handgun calibers.
Things have since changed, especially since the Hodgdon 2014 Annual Manual, and they added data for my sweet little .327FedMag.
I don't need any powder, and I still want to try some CFE Pistol.....
Has anyone used it in the 550B with the Dillon powder measure?

I seriously believe they will stop production on MANY old [favorite] powders in lieu of the new chemistry powders......they are more concerned with their bottom line than our wishes.

Again, has anyone run the CFE Pistol through a Dillon?

God bless,
Ozo
 
W231 is my most used pistol powder for non-magnum cartridges. I use it in everything from .32s up to .45s. What pisses me off is that once its gone I'll have to start over from scratch to work up all new loads. :mad:
Fortunately I still have 4-5 pounds of it. So by the time I run out others will have done enough experimenting to at least give me a good idea what to change to.
 
CFE meters just fine. Dillon, Hornady, or RCBS
It looks the same as HS6, so if you have used that it meters the same as.
To me autocomp, and CFE are almost indistinguishable. Look the same, shoot the same, same POI, same accuracy, same charges. I won't go as far as to say they are the same, but they are very close.

I have shot 231 back to back with CFE, BE86, HP38, WST, same POI, same accuracy, same or better metering.
I have just as many targets with BE86, and CFE that are the same.
These are from 10-15yds.
DSC_0665_zpsq8cwidke.jpg

Different pistol
image2_zps9664468e.jpeg
 
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