Winchester Model of 1894 Question

[TEXVET]

A couple of weeks ago I bought a Winchester Model of 1894 rifle from a guy on Gunbroker. The serial number dates this rifle back to late 1907 or early 1908. It is a 30 W.C.F. saddle rig model. The condition of the rifle's exterior is on a par with other rifles from the early 1900's. The majority of the bluing is gone and it looks like the furniture was probably refinished many years ago. Overall, the exterior is in good shape with minor handling scratches. The metal has the typical grey patina.
Now comes the problem. I took this rifle to a gunsmith friend to make sure the rifle would be safe to shoot. Turns out it is not. The leading edges of the lands are rusted the entire length of the barrel. The seller mentioned in his auction verbiage that the potential buyer should have the rifle inspected prior to firing it. I was warned, but I bought it anyway. I now have an expensive piece of "wall decoration".
Is there any gunsmithing practices that can remove this rust so the rifle can be shot? If not, what would an estimate of the rifle's value in the condition it is in?
I have bought and sold many firearms on the internet. This is the first time I have been stiffed (in my opinion). I feel the seller mislead everyone. If he knew of the condition, I feel he should have stated it. Having someone look at it prior to placing it for sale would have been a nice gesture on his part as well.
I would like to shoot this rifle someday, but if not, it will reside in the corner of my gun cabinet for another 107 years.

I know this is not a S&W product, but I also know there are some highly knowledgeable people on this site. I have learned a lot by just lurking. This lead to me starting my collection of older P/R revolvers. Currently holding at seventeen
quality revolvers.
Thanks in advance for any advice on this matter.

 

[Pisgah]

Rust doesn't necessarily mean the bore is unsalvageable. Give the bore a thorough scrubbing and reassess the condition. Even if pitting remains, it should still be safe to shoot, and might show surprising accuracy. I have a couple of old rifles with bores that look horrible, but still shoot safely and well.

 

[Fishinfool]

Plug the breech , and fill the barrel with Kroll. Let it set a few days, then run a tight bronze brush thru. It should remove the rust. Pitting is normal in older rifles from the period corrosive ammo was in use. It will not render the rifle unsafe, and you might be surprised by the accuracy. Unless the bore is about rusted away, it is safe to shoot after rust removal. Your "gunsmith" didn't make you a low ball offer to take it off you hands, did he?....

Value, I can not guess, but older saddle ring 1894's tend to bring pretty good money, and I doubt many of that vintage have original, pristine bores.

Larry

 

[Hang-Fire Hank]

IT'LL BE OK

TEXVET: The advice given you by Pisgah & Fishinfool is right on the money. I've dabbled quite a bit in antique firearms. Rust on the leading edges of the lands DOES NOT make this rifle unsafe to shoot. You didn't get "stiffed". That bore's condition should be expected. As Pisgah said, it'll probably still shoot just fine (don't hot rod it!).

Fishinfool's idea of soaking in Kroil, followed by a good scrubbing with a bronze (not stainless!!) brush is great advice. Kroil is gentle & cleans well. I also use Butch's Bore Shine, which is an agressive, ammonia based, cleaning solution. Also available is Outer's Foul-Out II rust removal process. Another good product is LBT Bore Lapping Compound, just use it sparingly & it'll get out surface rust. Just thought of Flitz. Put some of that on a patch & scrub the bore.

Personally, I'd never shoot jacketed bullets thru a 108 yr. old barrel. Just shoot relatively mild velocity lead bullets (1,300-1,800 feet per second). Get load data from various loading manuals.

Good Luck, Hank

 

[TEXVET]

No.
In fact he was really disappointed that the barrel was bad. He said it was a real shame someone had taken good care of the exterior of the rifle and had failed to take care of the bore.
I tried to clean the barrel by scrubbing it with a new bronze brush and Hoppe's No. 9. Not much luck. When I run a clean\oiled patch down the barrel there is no brown rust indications, in fact the swab comes out mostly clean.
I plan to see another old time gunsmith I know this weekend and have him access the rifle. I was hoping an experienced gunsmith might have a reamer of some kind that could knock the rust off without damaging the lands and grooves.
If all else fails, I have a full can of Kroll oil. What do you recommend for a chamber plug?
Thanks.

 

[TEXVET]

Ahhh, this is getting better by the hour. I like this rifle and would like to shoot it sparingly. This morning I was not a happy camper, now at least I know there may be a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.
I would like to repeat my earlier assessment concerning the combined knowledge of the readers on this website.
Thank you.

 

[scooter123]

As has been stated many times distinctly ugly barrels can actually shoot rather well. The biggest issue will be an increase in the rate and amount of leading. So, if you limit the rounds fired and clean completely and carefully after each outing there really shouldn't any safety hazard.

Another option is a new barrel. Yeah, you can actually purchase a brand spanking new barrel for a pre 64 Winchester 1894. One downside is the cost, they are not cheap. Another is that you'll have to find a gunsmith who is actually skilled enough to properly install a new barrel on one of these rifles. Finally, unless you find someone who is really good at "antiquing" a new barrel to match the patina of an antique rifle you'll have a rather severe mismatch. In the event you are interesting in a new barrel following is a link to one source that lists this barrel. Unfortunately it's currently out of stock but I would expect that some will show up at some point in time. BTW, I have purchased parts from them for my 1904 vintage 1894 Winchester and they are a good source of parts for these classics.

I'll also note that this is a 26 inch octagonal barrel that would have to be cut down to fit your saddle ring carbine. So it's basically barrel stock rather than a ready to fit barrel. Fortunately cutting a longer barrel down to carbine length is relatively easy for a good gunsmith with a fully equipped shop.

NEW Barrel 30 WCF (30-30) Octagon Winchester 1894 (9430R) Gun Parts antique firearms, Winchester, Marlin, Remington Jimenez, Bryco Jennings, Buttplates, Barrels, Sights, Screws

 

[ironhead7544]

You might be able to have the barrel relined. Or rebored to 38/55.

I would try cleaning it first. Flitz will remove the rust but the pits will remain. You could also try JB bore paste.

Even if the bore is pitted, it should still shoot jacketed bullets OK as long as there is some rifling left.

 

[TNDave]

Sometimes the best thing to do is clean a barrel the best you can and then shoot some jacketed bullets through it. See how it does. Dark bores can shoot well. You could always have it bored to 32 Special or 38-55 if it won't group.

 

[Pisgah]

TEXVET:

Personally, I'd never shoot jacketed bullets thru a 108 yr. old barrel. Just shoot relatively mild velocity lead bullets (1,300-1,800 feet per second). Get load data from various loading manuals.

Hank, I understand where you are coming from, but IMO your caution is unwarranted. The .30 WCF was a jacketed-bullet round from the get-go, and the barrel steel is perfectly suitable for jacketed bullets. In fact, although the round was ready when the 1894 first came out, it wasn't chambered in the 1894 until about a year later when the special steel for the barrels was finally ready. Also, the .30 WCF round today is loaded to essentially the same specs as the old stuff, and whereas jacketed bullets are often unaffected by pitting, leading can be severe with cast bullets in a pitted barrel.

 

[gregintenn]

How bad is this rust?

I have a 43 Winchester with a barrel that looks like a sewer pipe inside. It shoots very well.

Unless it is to the point of big chunks flaking off as you scrub the bore, I'd probably clean and shoot it.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

Actually the round design was ready on paper.

Hank, I understand where you are coming from, but IMO your caution is unwarranted. The .30 WCF was a jacketed-bullet round from the get-go, and the barrel steel is perfectly suitable for jacketed bullets. In fact, although the round was ready when the 1894 first came out, it wasn't chambered in the 1894 until about a year later when the special steel for the barrels was finally ready. Also, the .30 WCF round today is loaded to essentially the same specs as the old stuff, and whereas jacketed bullets are often unaffected by pitting, leading can be severe with cast bullets in a pitted barrel.

But the "smokeless" powder was not ready until 1895. To the original poster. If you brush that gun out with some Kano Kroil. and then shoot some rounds out of it. Either lead or jacketed, it will likely be fine. I have a number of these old guns. I actually prefer the rifles over the carbines, but that is immaterial to this discussion.

Here are pictures of just a few of the Winchester model 1894 rifles that I own. Good luck with yours. I forgot to add the picture. See the following post.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

Here is the picture or two that I meant to include,

In the previous post.

 

[2152hq]

You've already brushed it out as good as you can,,the patches come out clean. Enough handwringing already,,take it out with some factory ammo and have fun with it. The 30-30 was a smokeless jacketed round from day one.

You can sent the bbl off to someone like JES Reboring and for $250 he'll do a rebore/rechamber to 38-55 for you and that includes return of the bbl to you. He's fast,,about 2 or 3 wk turnaround.
Home - Reboring by J E S
You'll have to dissassemble the rifle and remove the bbl for the above or send him the entire rifle and let him do it. I'd imagine that's extra.
You'll have to tweek the cartridge guides most likely to get the 38-55 to feed right through the 30-30s but eveything else is the same.
Headspace is the same as your 30-30,,so if it's off (excess) in it's original state now,,rechamber/rebore won't correct it in this case w/the rimmed case.

All the better to be satisfied with 30-30 SRC accuracy!

Take it out and have fun with it. It's been around this long. A few more rounds of factory stuff won't hurt it.

 

[colt_saa]

I took this rifle to a gunsmith friend to make sure the rifle would be safe to shoot. Turns out it is not. The leading edges of the lands are rusted the entire length of the barrel.

First, I would go back to the gunsmith and ask if this rust is the only reason the firearm is unsafe to shoot?

Next I would ask him if it is removed is the rifle then safe to shoot?

If and only if both answers are YES would I make a big effort st cleaning the bore.


Kroil is a great penetrating oil. I use it all the time for many things.

However, there is another product that is specifically designed to work with surface rust. It is from the folks at Blue Wonder.

I leave it on for 10 minutes or so and then they say to 0000 steel wool, but I use some bronze wool or brass wool instead. Works great. This should do the trick for you.

When I get to the office I will look at the tube for the exact name.

 

[Frank46]

You mentioned that the leading edges of the rifling were rusted. Could be that the "rust" may be in actuality copper fouling. Why do I say this?. I have two rifles chambered for the 30-40 Krag cartridge. One is a cutdown 1898 Krag and the other is a 1895 winchester saddle ring carbine. Neither had been cleaned since the year of the flood. The krag was the first bought so started with that. Cleaned and brushed for I don't know how many days. then plugged the bbl and filled with hoppe's. Let it soak for a couple days and start all over again. I could swear that the lands were getting higher each cleaning. Started a second round but used a 8mm rifle bore brush. That finally did the trick. The 1895 SRC took over a year soaking,cleaning and patching. that rifle actually had clumps of bullet jacket material on the tops of the lands that refused to come off. 8mm bore brush again. Finally no more clumps. What I'm trying to say is that your barrel may have been shot and either poorly cleaned or not cleaned for a long period of time. Try a 8mm bore brush with the bronze bristles do not use a stainless steel bore brush. At this point what have you got to loose. If you reload try loading some 150 grain 30 cal military bullets, but only one in the gun at a time. They have pretty hard copper jackets so may help if it is actually rust not heavy copper fouling. Frank

 

[Hang-Fire Hank]

Hank, I understand where you are coming from, but IMO your caution is unwarranted. The .30 WCF was a jacketed-bullet round from the get-go, and the barrel steel is perfectly suitable for jacketed bullets. In fact, although the round was ready when the 1894 first came out, it wasn't chambered in the 1894 until about a year later when the special steel for the barrels was finally ready. Also, the .30 WCF round today is loaded to essentially the same specs as the old stuff, and whereas jacketed bullets are often unaffected by pitting, leading can be severe with cast bullets in a pitted barrel.

I just like to be gentle with my antique guns, Pisgah. I pretty much shoot my cast lead bullets thru all my old rifles/revolvers. The rifling will last that much longer compared to jacketed.

 

[Stevie]

Ehh?...rifle bores always look better when in pristine condition..however a few pits won't hurt anything.

I bought and still own a US M1917 rifle that has a nice clean sharp-looking bore except for some similar to described in the OP pitting along the edge of the rifling. Shoots fine.

I've owned and still own a lot of old milsurp and sporting rifles..some with clean bores and some pitted. The US M1917 'P17' is the first I've encountered with the corrosion limited to along the edge of the rifling lands

 

[TEXVET]

Let me clear this up a little.
When I received this rifle I cleaned it. During the cleaning process I checked the barrel using a small bore light. The barrel appeared to have very little land and grooves left. I have three other 94s made prior to 1950 and their barrels look normal. I was concerned about the new rifle, so I took it to a gunsmith friend of mine. He checked out the entire rifle and said it was in good condition, except for the rust build-up in the barrel. He told me I could probably shoot four or five jacketed rounds down the barrel before one would finally seize due to a build-up of copper on the rust. He said the rust build-up would act like an emery cloth sanding down the bullets as they left the barrel. I thought the jacketed bullets might actually scrape away the rust. Like jacketed bullets help remove lead in a revolver barrel.
I have over 45 years of experience with firearms. I have always kept mine cleaned and oiled to prevent any problems. Buying these old 94s is new to me so I came here looking for advice.

 

[Stevie]

Shoot it and clean it some more