Decipher
Member
You have enough posts, but #3 works perfectly for my Shield 9
With 9mm M&P Shield, which is overall the best/most accurate sight picture POA/POI?
- Thread starter tedburns3
- Start date
Well, let me be the judge of that (number of posts)! 
Anyway, I have a small shipment of 124gr HST due in Tuesday, and hope to make it to the range on Wednesday.
I intend to shoot 10 rounds of it using sight pictures #2 and #3, respectively, for a total of 20 rounds.
I'll do the same with WWB and Tul target ammo, will segregate the results, so 6 targets showing a total of 60 rounds (hopefully on paper) will be posted here, along with casting my vote.
Due to logistics, it is likely that all targets will be shot at a distance of 15 yards.
Cheers,
Anyway, I have a small shipment of 124gr HST due in Tuesday, and hope to make it to the range on Wednesday.
I intend to shoot 10 rounds of it using sight pictures #2 and #3, respectively, for a total of 20 rounds.
I'll do the same with WWB and Tul target ammo, will segregate the results, so 6 targets showing a total of 60 rounds (hopefully on paper) will be posted here, along with casting my vote.
Due to logistics, it is likely that all targets will be shot at a distance of 15 yards.
Cheers,
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Third range trip with Shield
Outdoor range- all targets were at 15 yards, shot standing, no rest. ('nutnfancy' says, in so many words, that it's not easy with Shield at this distance- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xVUJAxv3SM&list=FLHQe09bbL-4d5eiPK4-SpLw&index=1).
For each brand of ammo, 7 rounds fired on each target.
Each target is 8" in diameter.
Targets on left- used Sight Image #2
Targets on right- used Sight Image #3
All ammo 115gr FMJ unless otherwise specified, and there were no malfunctions/failures.
Sometimes I had patience, sometimes not. Sometimes there were other shooters conversing.
WWB:
Federal Champion:
TulAmmo:
HST 124gr:
PPV:
I shot this so poorly that I covered targets and forgot to take pics.
Fed 147gr JHP:
I think that I shot slightly better with Sight Image #2 today, but the difference is negligible. Not that it's relevant to the topic- I prefer it because I like seeing part of the target, and you 'split' it with that Sight Image, instead of covering it with the middle of the white dot. So, my vote will be #2 based upon what I seem to shoot better and that preference.
That does not imply that Sight Image #2 is how the gun is sighted at the factory. FWiW, I really don't know if Sight Image #2 is the better sight image. My findings are subjective, not objective.
A Ransom Rest test using two or three expert shooters sighting in would give a more objective answer.
I am a left-handed shooter. Comments welcome, including any critiques as to my shooting mistakes/errors, if any patterns evident that with correction might improve my results with the Shield.
Outdoor range- all targets were at 15 yards, shot standing, no rest. ('nutnfancy' says, in so many words, that it's not easy with Shield at this distance- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xVUJAxv3SM&list=FLHQe09bbL-4d5eiPK4-SpLw&index=1).
For each brand of ammo, 7 rounds fired on each target.
Each target is 8" in diameter.
Targets on left- used Sight Image #2
Targets on right- used Sight Image #3
All ammo 115gr FMJ unless otherwise specified, and there were no malfunctions/failures.
Sometimes I had patience, sometimes not. Sometimes there were other shooters conversing.
WWB:
Federal Champion:
TulAmmo:
HST 124gr:
PPV:
I shot this so poorly that I covered targets and forgot to take pics.
Fed 147gr JHP:
I think that I shot slightly better with Sight Image #2 today, but the difference is negligible. Not that it's relevant to the topic- I prefer it because I like seeing part of the target, and you 'split' it with that Sight Image, instead of covering it with the middle of the white dot. So, my vote will be #2 based upon what I seem to shoot better and that preference.
That does not imply that Sight Image #2 is how the gun is sighted at the factory. FWiW, I really don't know if Sight Image #2 is the better sight image. My findings are subjective, not objective.
A Ransom Rest test using two or three expert shooters sighting in would give a more objective answer.
I am a left-handed shooter. Comments welcome, including any critiques as to my shooting mistakes/errors, if any patterns evident that with correction might improve my results with the Shield.
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ginzo
Member
I am left handed also. Random testing with another shooter is one way to eliminate sight picture issue. The other is shoot from a rest and remove your self from the equation altogether. That gives you a starting point.
Do a search as I cannot explain (not that smart) trajectory and bullet weights vs. distances. This will help you understand POA=POI.
Once you are at this point than you can practice trigger control, as that is ALMOST everyones issue when starting out with a new firearm.
I've included a picture of results when test firing/sighting in a new pistol from a rest and a video that I graduated to showing trigger control. It takes patience and small steps to get to this.
I AM NOT a competitive shooter, just interested in fun at the range and serious SD.
1st 6 shots, .357 mag. 158 gr. JHP 6 inch Target
5 Yards from a rest. Gun was sighted in perfectly.
- See more at: 1st 6 Shots, .357 Mag. 158 Gr. JHP 6 Inch Target Photo by ginzo1958 | Photobucket
Trigger practice Dry Fire .22 casing - YouTube
Hope this helps. I apologize in advance if your knowledge level is already beyond this reply. For me, I tend to pick up my friends guns (cold) and shoot them better than my own. And sometimes better than them. Go figure!
Chuck
Do a search as I cannot explain (not that smart) trajectory and bullet weights vs. distances. This will help you understand POA=POI.
Once you are at this point than you can practice trigger control, as that is ALMOST everyones issue when starting out with a new firearm.
I've included a picture of results when test firing/sighting in a new pistol from a rest and a video that I graduated to showing trigger control. It takes patience and small steps to get to this.
I AM NOT a competitive shooter, just interested in fun at the range and serious SD.
1st 6 shots, .357 mag. 158 gr. JHP 6 inch Target
5 Yards from a rest. Gun was sighted in perfectly.
- See more at: 1st 6 Shots, .357 Mag. 158 Gr. JHP 6 Inch Target Photo by ginzo1958 | Photobucket
Trigger practice Dry Fire .22 casing - YouTube
Hope this helps. I apologize in advance if your knowledge level is already beyond this reply. For me, I tend to pick up my friends guns (cold) and shoot them better than my own. And sometimes better than them. Go figure!
Chuck
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papersniper
Member
Seems like that would be true for realistic SD ranges, like up to about 30 feet. Bullets are still on the raise from the muzzle, so holding a higher POA would tend to be closer to POI. That's logical.
This is a good thread for me, because even knowing what you said (and I know), I was planning on starting out with a center of mass POA with my yet unfired Shield 9mm. Sometimes the obvious escapes me. I do a lot more bullseye pistol shooting, and 100+ yd rifle shooting where my sights are adjusted for center of bullseye holds. So a bit of a mind-readjustment is required for training with a SD pistol, well, those without adjustable sights obviously.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I wish I had seen this thread earlier. That picture has been floating around the web for a long time now and it's confusing.
#3 as shown in the OP is impossible.
What? Why Rastoff, I use it all the time so, obviously it's possible! OK, I know you think you're using it, but in reality you can't. You see, the picture shows all three dots as the same size. Because the actual sights are physically the same size, the front sight will appear smaller because it's further away. So, the real sight picture will look like this:
As you can see, the front sight dot is much smaller than the rear sight dots. So, if you want to use #3, how do you line up the dots? Line up the top of the dots? Put the front dot in the middle of the rear dots?
By using #2 though, the fact of the front sight appearing smaller is irrelevant. So, lining up the tops of the sights is the most correct way.
Alright, alright, before y'all pounce on me about what the Sig manual or your favorite instructor and 50 year combat vet says, there is a caveat. The difference between #2 and #3 at the target will be so small as to be immeasurable by a normal shooter. But Rastoff, you just said....??? Yes, I know what I said, but you also have to take into account how the sights work.
Iron or open sights work by aligning the barrel with the target. Misaligned sights create angles that cause the bullet to be further off target the further away that target is. So, if one shooter uses #2 correctly and another uses #3 correctly, both will have the barrel aligned with the target. Because #3 is raising the barrel about 1/16" higher, the bullets will hit about that much higher on the target. Does anyone care if they hit 1/16" higher? If you do, this is the wrong gun and you need to sell it and get a proper bullseye gun.
Now, because the dots are not visually the same size, it will be harder to get a consistent alignment when using #3. Thus, it will be easier to maintain a consistent group with #2. But that's only for really precision shooting. For combat shooting, either will work just as well.
So, go ahead and use #2 or #3 if you like. #2 is how the gun was made to be used, but #3 won't hurt you in competition or when trying to hit the bad guy.
Alas, even though they are called combat sights, #3 is not the correct sight picture. Here's why...
#3 as shown in the OP is impossible.
What? Why Rastoff, I use it all the time so, obviously it's possible! OK, I know you think you're using it, but in reality you can't. You see, the picture shows all three dots as the same size. Because the actual sights are physically the same size, the front sight will appear smaller because it's further away. So, the real sight picture will look like this:
As you can see, the front sight dot is much smaller than the rear sight dots. So, if you want to use #3, how do you line up the dots? Line up the top of the dots? Put the front dot in the middle of the rear dots?
By using #2 though, the fact of the front sight appearing smaller is irrelevant. So, lining up the tops of the sights is the most correct way.
Alright, alright, before y'all pounce on me about what the Sig manual or your favorite instructor and 50 year combat vet says, there is a caveat. The difference between #2 and #3 at the target will be so small as to be immeasurable by a normal shooter. But Rastoff, you just said....??? Yes, I know what I said, but you also have to take into account how the sights work.
Iron or open sights work by aligning the barrel with the target. Misaligned sights create angles that cause the bullet to be further off target the further away that target is. So, if one shooter uses #2 correctly and another uses #3 correctly, both will have the barrel aligned with the target. Because #3 is raising the barrel about 1/16" higher, the bullets will hit about that much higher on the target. Does anyone care if they hit 1/16" higher? If you do, this is the wrong gun and you need to sell it and get a proper bullseye gun.
Now, because the dots are not visually the same size, it will be harder to get a consistent alignment when using #3. Thus, it will be easier to maintain a consistent group with #2. But that's only for really precision shooting. For combat shooting, either will work just as well.
So, go ahead and use #2 or #3 if you like. #2 is how the gun was made to be used, but #3 won't hurt you in competition or when trying to hit the bad guy.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Oh yeah, one more thing. Anyone using the 6 o'clock hold with an M&P is just off their rocker. That is for target shooters only. I would explain why, but I'm tired of typing.
papersniper
Member
Anyone have any personal or empirical information on POI differences with different bullet weights? I will carry 124-147 gr bullets loaded to around 1050 fps; what I'm calling non +P velocity. I have not tested my 9mm Shield yet to know which one, but Speer 124 gr Gold Dot (not the +p) is the one I'll try first. However, I can get 115 gr FMJ (Perfecta, Monach Brass, Win White Box, etc) which costs about half what the SGD costs. I realize I probably will have more FTE, FTF etc with the inexpensive stuff, but I'm okay with that as that in itself is good training also, and I can live with a 5% or so failure rate......as long as the gun doesn't blow up!
However, I don't want to train with something that is not consistent with the recoil, POI, etc from my carry ammo.
So I'm curious about recoil and POI difference between a 115 gr and a 124 gr bullet, assuming both are not Plus P (which I tend to not use in any gun).
However, I don't want to train with something that is not consistent with the recoil, POI, etc from my carry ammo.
So I'm curious about recoil and POI difference between a 115 gr and a 124 gr bullet, assuming both are not Plus P (which I tend to not use in any gun).
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, papersniper, the empirical evidence you seek is out there. You're gonna have to do your own google searching for it though I'm just not interested enough to do it.
I can tell you that the recoil difference is small between the bullet weights. It also depends on speed. So, a 115gr bullet at 1,200FPS will give the same recoil as a 147gr bullet at 950FPS.
I can tell you that the recoil difference is small between the bullet weights. It also depends on speed. So, a 115gr bullet at 1,200FPS will give the same recoil as a 147gr bullet at 950FPS.
papersniper
Member
Yeah, I found some info on the POI differences....doesn't seem significant for SD ranges of under 30 feet or so.....now how can you say you're not interested enough to tell me.
And I'm going to stick with 124 gr bullets for now.....I think....but I'm always up for great prices or convincing arguments that other weights might be better!
Rastoff
US Veteran
If I had known off the top of my head, I would have told you. I just didn't want to do the searching for you when you'll retain it better by doing it yourself....now how can you say you're not interested enough to tell me.
I don't think the bullet weight in a 9mm will make a lot of difference. At the close in distances the accuracy is close enough for all of them. For self-defense bigger is better, but the difference between 115gr and 147gr is not dramatic enough to warrant spending a bunch more money.
If the bullet expands, a 115gr bullet will do the job.
papersniper
Member
If I had known off the top of my head, I would have told you. I just didn't want to do the searching for you when you'll retain it better by doing it yourself.
I don't think the bullet weight in a 9mm will make a lot of difference. At the close in distances the accuracy is close enough for all of them. For self-defense bigger is better, but the difference between 115gr and 147gr is not dramatic enough to warrant spending a bunch more money.
If the bullet expands, a 115gr bullet will do the job.
I was joking on the "interest" part above.
Roger that on the bullet weights.....it appears to me the POI is less important at SD ranges than issues of expansion and penetration. I like the heavier bullets, but the 147 gr bullets seem to be very rare, at least in stores. On line it's a different matter of course.
BTW, I did pick up a 50 round box of the Perfecta 9mm 115 gr FMJ yesterday to try. At about $15 with tax from Wal-Mart, seems like a worthwhile thing to try out. I don't really mind a few FTF or FTE, etc, as those are good training also.
I haven't seen nor ever heard of a 'Perfecta' ammunition at Walmart or anywhere else for that matter. Is that the full name? I mean is Perfecta the name of the manufacturer or the line of ammo?
In any event, at Walmart I paid $10.97 for a 50-rd box of TulAmmo in 9mm 115gr. View my posted photos checking sight picture with the Tul earlier in this thread. I shot well with it at 15 yds.
In any event, at Walmart I paid $10.97 for a 50-rd box of TulAmmo in 9mm 115gr. View my posted photos checking sight picture with the Tul earlier in this thread. I shot well with it at 15 yds.
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papersniper
Member
Yep, "Perfecta" is the brand name. I found it in 223 Remington and 9mm Luger, and I believe it's also available in 40 cal, but I have not seen it. The boxes state "distributed by TulAmmo, and some have said it's identical to their brass cased ammo. Don't know, never tried that. Some also say it's made my Fiocchi....it is made in Italy the box says. The internet comments I've read on the 9mm have been positive, a bit less on the 40 cal S&W rounds.
papersniper
Member
I may take a while, but I'll post on the M&W forum when I finally get around to shooting the Perfecta.
falconman515
Member
While I couldn't find a section in the Shield manual about sight picture, a few of my other manuals (my XDMc manual, for one), mentions this and shows a Pic using #3.
So for SOME pistols anyway, getting good results using #3 is NOT compensating for shooter error.
One thing I notice a bunch at the range, including from my Wife, is that for many (that don't shoot a lot), their 1st shot (using pic #3) might be spot-on, dead center. Possibly because with that 1st shot, they're not anticipating the recoil (yet). Using the same sight picture as their 1st shot, As they shoot more and they start to Anticipate/Flinch, THEN they start shooting Lower than their 1st shot and maybe even Low/Left. That's definitely shooter error.
I actually heard one shooter say "My 1st mag was Perfect and I got progressively worse with each mag... I guess I should have quit after that 1st mag." The group went wild.
You basically NAILED my experience with my Shield 9
Perfect first shots then low left very often or a good to average mag that made me feel better then next mag pure junk
What am I doing wrong? I'm thinking since the trigger on my PPQ is so perfect and I shoot it Very well maybe an APEX trigger upgrade would help with this? (And more then likely new sights since the rear has to come off anywsy)
This gun drives me nuts ... But reading your comment explains my experience with this thing 100% and now I need to figure out how to overcome it.
Before sinking money into an Apex Kit, experiment with using a different Grip Technique and which part of your trigger finger to use.
Somewhere along the line, you may be 'anticipating' the recoil and flinching downward... Or twisting the pistol during trigger press (if your shots are going left/right). You need a straight rearward trigger press.
To see if you're flinching, have someone load a Snap-Cap/dummy round somewhere into the mag with your ammo. When you hit the 'Dud', if the gun dips, Bingo! You're anticipating recoil and dipping the Shield just before striker release.
The trigger-to-backstrap distance is probably different on your Shield, than with the PPQ and using a different part of your trigger finger, to achieve a straight rearward press, may be the only change needed.
For me... I needed to change from 'Center Pad' to 'first knuckle crease' to achieve a straight rearward press.
Somewhere along the line, you may be 'anticipating' the recoil and flinching downward... Or twisting the pistol during trigger press (if your shots are going left/right). You need a straight rearward trigger press.
To see if you're flinching, have someone load a Snap-Cap/dummy round somewhere into the mag with your ammo. When you hit the 'Dud', if the gun dips, Bingo! You're anticipating recoil and dipping the Shield just before striker release.
The trigger-to-backstrap distance is probably different on your Shield, than with the PPQ and using a different part of your trigger finger, to achieve a straight rearward press, may be the only change needed.
For me... I needed to change from 'Center Pad' to 'first knuckle crease' to achieve a straight rearward press.
Bud33
Member
There is an old saying that opinions are like elbows (cleaned up for the little ones) Everyone has one!!!!
I haven't read this whole thread but my answer is this.
WHAT EVER GIVES YOU the best placement!!!
I haven't read this whole thread but my answer is this.
WHAT EVER GIVES YOU the best placement!!!
Whitwabit
US Veteran
My Beretta Px4 9mm Sub-Compact shoots POA using Number 3 as does my CZ75 Series 88. Haven't gotten my 40c yet to see where it shoots.
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