Would any cop today feel an advantage with a .357 Magnum revolver?

[akviper]

My chief in the early eighties was a dyed in the wool revolver man. I was in charge of firearms training and set up a week long handgun school with a big name outside instructor. Several on our department lobbied for autos but the chief would not even consider it.

We started the school with our 686s and the big name instructor insisted we only shoot our duty load of the 125 grain Remington magnum load. We were shooting several hundred rounds per day and by the end of the second day everybody, including our champion revolver shooting chief was having problems handling the magnum load. He decided on the third day to authorize auto pistols and went out and bought himself a Smith 645. Many of us already had various 1911s so the instructor graciously started over with auto pistols (I think an Alaskan black bear hunt might have influenced him).

Bottom line, when given a choice of a 45 auto or the 357 90% of the officers chose to purchase their own 45 auto for duty use. All but a handful of the remaining revolver guys started carrying the FBI 158 grain 38 special load instead of the 125 grain magnums.

Magnums are not fun to shoot for most people. You can shoot the 45, 40, or 9mm all day long but you have to be pretty tough to shoot a full house 357 for a couple of hundred rounds a day. I have no doubt that there are a few people out there who love the recoil, flash, and muzzle blast of the 357 but the average cop does not fall into this category. The 357 is a powerful handgun round but there are better choices for the average shooter or cop.

 

[satinmushroom]

anyone ever hear of moon clips ? the only problem is that smith doesnt make them for the five shot j frame - but an eight shot moon clip for a 357 - as the ad says - priceless

 

[tpd223]

I used to have a 940 that I thought would make a good BUG, one of the issues was the moon clips.
These are easy to bend, and even a little bit of bend will tie up the gun badly.

I think the clips are fine for range work, but I don't trust them to be durable enough for constant carry.

 

[fourXfour]

anyone ever hear of moon clips ? the only problem is that smith doesnt make them for the five shot j frame - but an eight shot moon clip for a 357 - as the ad says - priceless

the new pro series 442/642 are five shot moon clipped j frames

 

[Dave T]

I must admit I ignored this thread for a number of days, not wanting to get into the usual argument. Slow day today so I just read through all 15 pages and have two points to make.

In 1981 I became my department's chief firearms instructor and was charged with completely revamping our approach to firearms training (two negligent discharges showed up the poor training we then had). As part of that I interviewed a bunch of cops all over the country who had been in gunfights. To a man they all said they now carried a larger caliber and more ammo as a result of being in the fights. No one said "six is enough".

My department of ~400 armed personnel was about 60% semi-autos (45 ACP 1911s) and 40% 357 Mag (issue gun was the M-66 & Rem 125g Mag ammo). During both training exercises and qualification I saw enough gun related malfunctions with revolvers to loose all the romanticism associated with the "six-gun". As stated earlier, dirt can bring the fine mechanism of a revolver to a halt. I once did a one day training exercise in which I personally witnessed a Colt Government Model shoot over 700 rounds of cast bullet "Ball" reloads without a single malfunction and zero matinence. No revolver we had would do that.

I love Smith revolvers but carry semi-autos.

Dave

 

[32sgteot]

Dave, T
After 9/11 became the Training Sgt in MN NYPD. Anyway, I started receiving and had to collect data on Cops in my Command range qualifications. We had both the Glock 9MM, ( Some Sig's and Smith Auto's ) and older Smith model 10's/64's and Chief's/Centennials. In the 4 years I held that spot, never ever had a report ( and there were thousands, sometimes seemed like more ) of a Glock not functioning. There were many reports of Smith Cylinders not turning/opening and frozen triggers. Rugers Security Six had their issues also, but were so few it was hard to keep Data on them. I too Love revolvers, There is something to be said for the way a metal and wood revolver feels in the hand. However, when time for business, and no nonsense Life or Death situation, in my humble opinion, Glock is the one firearm I count on. Still on patrol in another State, and only carry a Glock. Starting my 29th year.

 

[Poohgyrr]

The main problem I have is forcing the same pistol on everyone, and then not being able to train as needed - the disagreement is in how much training is needed... That seems to be a universal issue. Interesting in how real life can effect what is or isn't important. Hard for me to argue with what works, and we've had some shoots, and non shoots, where things worked out.. So, sometimes I just don't know... Life is not boring.

 

[donniedee]

357mag for uniform carry?

id feel totally secure in packing a ol 27-2 3.5 357mag again in uniform not a problem, i think if the s***t hit the fan ird make a mad dash for my c.a.r.-15 .

but since 90 percent of cops refuse to keep thre guns clean anyway revolvers are a way to go, there more reliable the autos i think and with 6 shots which is only 2 less than my colt gold cup throw on 2 speedloaders amd im good.

i think and have seen since we went to autos more people are "spraing" targets than getting on there sites and making there shots count just an observation form a 24yr vet... but then what do i know gettin ready to pack a blue 27-2 31/2 off duty again cant wait... loaded with full house mags totally secure....

 

[penates]

I have read the posts in this thread with a great deal of interest, and after donning a flame suit, will through in my two cents. I learned to shoot with my Dad's old duty gun, a S&W m15, and have a love for the K and L frame revolvers. In the course of my law enforcement career I have carried a S&W m15, Beretta 92FS, Glock 22, and now a H&K p2000. There are no logical reasons for a modern law enforcement agency to even consider a revolver as standard issue for a uniformed officer when compared to the plethora of modern semi autos.

When you consider logistics the semi auto beats the revolver every time. The revolver contains more and smaller parts than a modern semi auto. The revolver needs more tools and spare parts to effect armorer level repairs than a semi auto. The revolver needs a more intense training class for armorer level repairs than a semi auto. The revolver may not be as easily modified to fit an individuals hand as the recent generation semi autos.

When you consider the tactical needs of a modern agency, the revolver falls short again. The .40 s&w ammo issued by my agency is a 155 gr JHP traveling at approximately 1200 fps. To get the equivalent energy from a 357 magnum would require a full power 158 gr load with an corresponding difference in recoil, muzzle flash, and muzzle blast. You also would only see a typical duty load of 18 rounds with a revolver (Six in the cylinder with two speedloaders.) vs 36 to 45 rounds with a 40 cal semi auto. The semi auto also has the edge in tactical situations such as one hand reloading, weak hand reloading, immediate action drills, and so on.

In short given the current state of law enforcement training and budgets, the continued rise in the use of long arms by criminal organizations, and the increased training and practice carried out by criminal organizations, the law enforcement officer in today's environment would be considerably disadvantaged with a revolver as a duty sidearm.

As a post script, my father was a street cop for 21 years, starting in a time when blackjacks, beavertails, and officer presence enforced the law and your back up was calling in on a Gamewell box. He was involved in a number of on the job shootings, and at the first opportunity switched to a S&W 659 when semi autos were authorized for duty carry.

 

[thomasinaz]

penates; This post isn't about Office issue handguns or the "tactical needs of an agency". It's about if an individual Deputy/Officer feels well armed with a revolver. Some do, some don't.....I think this is based on indivdual experience, training, and a willingness to practice shooting and operating the duty handgun proficiently. What works best for each of us, indivdually, is based on that.

I've seen way too many Officers on the qualification course, who struggle to get a barely passing score with semi-autos. When they're asked when they shot last, it's ususally "last year's qual" when they posted another lousy score. When the few guys come out to qualify with revolvers they usually shoot above average scores, becasue they shoot and practice with them. I don't think revolvers should be forced onto most cops because most cops won't put the time into staying proficient with the revolver. But for those individual Officers who do put the time into operating the revolver proficiently, it is a viable option.

 

[J. W.]

The only pistol I've had the pleasure to carry as a duty pistol is the 4566. I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 8 round N-frame .357 considering I can handle a DA revovler trigger far better than the DA trigger of the 4566.That said, I wouldn't pick a revovler either.

With that said, my first choice would be a 1911 followed extremely closely by a Glock 21SF.

 

[carl3989]

Yea For .357

The last 10 or so years of a 35 year career I carried a 9mm. Prior our dept. had .38 special revolvers ( I carried the S&W Combat Masterpiece).Given a choice between a 9mm or a .357 I would have loved to stick with a revolver. Yet if the choice was a 1911 in 45acp or a .357 it would be harder to choose.

 

[RychenCop]

no...the streets are too damn dangerous for a six shooter these days. now a .357 as a backup, that's a different matter.

 

[luangtom]

The proverbial hit-what-ya-aim-at attitude has gone by the wayside for much of the military and law enforcement. WWI soldiers, with their bolt-action '03-Springfields, had a hit-ratio of 1 to 1.5 rounds fired, WWII soldiers with their semi-auto M1 Garands had a hit-ratio of 1 to 4.5 rounds fired, Vietnam soldiers with their select-fire M16 had a 1-15 ratio. LEO's will fall into the same hole. They feel they have extra rounds, so they do not have to be exact in their fire. The pray 'n spray theory is alive and well in both military and law enforcement.

Read after-action reports from the field in both military and law enforcement and this theory will be found to be proven true. More than once I have seen fellow officers over the years just hold their weapon out around a barrier and fire aimlessly, hoping to hit something or basically scare the perp with superior fire-power.

Another officer would still be well-served with a revolver loaded with the correct ammunition. Hitting what one aims at is the bottom-line. And, I agree fully with others that stated handguns are or should be a last line of defense. A tactical shotgun or rifle best serves an officer in the field.

 

[RychenCop]

The proverbial hit-what-ya-aim-at attitude has gone by the wayside for much of the military and law enforcement. WWI soldiers, with their bolt-action '03-Springfields, had a hit-ratio of 1 to 1.5 rounds fired, WWII soldiers with their semi-auto M1 Garands had a hit-ratio of 1 to 4.5 rounds fired, Vietnam soldiers with their select-fire M16 had a 1-15 ratio. LEO's will fall into the same hole. They feel they have extra rounds, so they do not have to be exact in their fire. The pray 'n spray theory is alive and well in both military and law enforcement.

Read after-action reports from the field in both military and law enforcement and this theory will be found to be proven true. More than once I have seen fellow officers over the years just hold their weapon out around a barrier and fire aimlessly, hoping to hit something or basically scare the perp with superior fire-power.

Another officer would still be well-served with a revolver loaded with the correct ammunition. Hitting what one aims at is the bottom-line. And, I agree fully with others that stated handguns are or should be a last line of defense. A tactical shotgun or rifle best serves an officer in the field.

i agree that you need to be as proficient as possible with what ever you carry, but being out gunned certainly comes into play these days. and that's when more effective rounds in between reloads comes into play. depending on my assignment, i would not have an issue carrying a revolver, but street duty requires a hi-cap semi auto. IMO of course.

 

[stantheman86]

I'm not a cop, but I carry a revolver 95% of the time for CC, most recently a 4" Model 10-10 with 2 speedstrips. I feel very safe with it, and I know I can put my 6 on target, and reload reasonably fast and deliver 6 more if I'm in trouble bad enough that I have to fire more than 6 times.

As much of a handgunner as I am, I have always been of the mindset that a handgun is something you use when you don't have a rifle. At the very least a handgun is a backup to a rifle. I don't think many serviceman in Iraq or Afghanistan would feel very safe in a combat zone with just an M9.

I agree, there's a difference between a street cop and a civilian carrying a concealed pistol for protection. But, as was said, many, many police officers carried revolvers for a whole lot of years in some very tough areas.

In this "modern era" I think the transition to autoloading pistols for LE was a foregone conclusion.......with criminals traveling in packs and getting more and more heavily armed, a pistol that can deliver 17+ rounds on demand is the way to go. Police officers carry AR-15's in the car too, and SWAT guys carry as much hardware these days as an Infantry platoon.....the days of SWAT guys grabbing an M16A1 and a helmet and kicking the door in are over, now police are more para-military, in my opinion.

Officer Freindly with his 6" M&P in a flap holster and 6 spare rounds in loops, with a pair of handcuffs and a nightstick, and a 12 gauge Winchester pump in the car are over........back then if cops had to grab the shotgun things must be going really bad.

 

[Broadside]

WWI soldiers, with their bolt-action '03-Springfields, had a hit-ratio of 1 to 1.5 rounds fired,

Would you happen to have a source for this information? I find it very interesting.

The proverbial hit-what-ya-aim-at attitude has gone by the wayside for much of the military and law enforcement. WWI soldiers, with their bolt-action '03-Springfields, had a hit-ratio of 1 to 1.5 rounds fired, WWII soldiers with their semi-auto M1 Garands had a hit-ratio of 1 to 4.5 rounds fired, Vietnam soldiers with their select-fire M16 had a 1-15 ratio. LEO's will fall into the same hole. They feel they have extra rounds, so they do not have to be exact in their fire. The pray 'n spray theory is alive and well in both military and law enforcement.

I would submit that the lower hit ratio is more a result of how technology has affected combat. There have been tremendous increases in both the range and the lethality of weapons which have dictated different tactics in order to survive and prevail on the modern battlefield.

One must also take into consideration the tempo of modern warfare which is far different from the static trenches of WW I.

 

[luangtom]

I do not have a link, but it was on the History Channel on one of their programs dealing with developments in warfare. They quoted the numbers from DoD files. Sorry I do not have the specific link or program. It stood out so vividly, that I remembered the numbers and wrote them down.

I will, however, pursue it and try to find the link and specific program.

 

[dls56]

When I was patroling it was a M-19 on our side with only .38+p allowed. That was many years ago but when things got hairy I always opted for my trusty 12 gauge pump it sat in a rack right next to me and a simple push of a button released it. I was never shy about carrying it either. Intimidating, useful, a real bonified peacemaker describes the shotgun.
In the trunk there was a scoped bolt rifle in a hard case for its intended purpose.
The handgun (I could shoot it very well) was ok but I'll take a scattergun over any pistol or revolver anytime.

 

[Xfuzz]

Lot of opinions here most quite vaild.
Been in a couple regretable "dust up's" over the years.
Carry what your comfortable with...The outcome is in Gods hands anyway.
This mindset has gone on for decades.
Shot placement...cool head...great.. but can fall out the the window quickly.
Times change. Crooks now travel in groups.
My always piece is a S&W 12 2" in a back pocket.
Glock 17 or 23 in the console and that is what I would pack if still on the very dark streets.
S&W revolvers can still get the job done but so did Colt SAA in the day.
Show your nice Smiths and Colts to your friends.
Show the bad guys your Glock.