Would Bobbing the Hammer make the trigger reset quicker?

[Whisper44]

I know that it decreases the lock time but I was wondering if by bobbing the hammer (removing the hooked portion) would help reset the trigger faster?

Why?

I haven't heard of anybody (on the internet) bobbing their hammer as of yet. I noticed the Timney drop in's hammer had a slimmer profile, so I thought I might give that a try.

Even though I have my Timney 3 # trigger backordered , I'm tinkering with the fcg to see if I can get it to work with my slidefire. I have a 4.5 JP spring kit installed (I don't have any other kit on hand)and have worked the trigger in a bit. I know I can get the trigger down to 3# which I believe is optimal but wanted to work my way down to it gradually. Haven't polished the engagement points yet...but may. However, I have applied some moly paste on those contact points and on the pins to see how I do with that. Previously with just the spring kit installed I was able to consistently get the slidefire to work using CCI stingers but not with federal bulk ammo.

 

[Whisper44]

Also, I got to thinking about the Slidefire stock itself. Would removing some aspects of the stock not crucial to it's function in an effort to lighten the unit ( i know it's almost crazy to think about cutting into this $350 unit) help with the making the 15-22 work with lesser powered .22lr ammo?

 

[Aceman58]

Be careful messing with the hammer and springs, 22LRs need a good solid strike to ignite. But "Yes" bobbing the hammer will make it lighter and quicker, but it would be better to purchase a complete "Trigger" kit instead of cutting, bobbing and doing a garage engineer job. You may find your M&P miss firing more than you want.
Bobbing the hammer,you may have to increase the tension on the spring to get back what you trimmed off in weight.. Others have installed a lighter "Yellow" spring on the hammer to improve and lighten up the trigger only to find FTFs happening more than they expected. Again this weapon is not intended for defense so keeping it stock for reliabilitiy is not a real issue for you, but for me, I won't do it. Good luck.

 

[Whisper44]

I realized that going with the "yellow JP Spring" may not get the desired results, that's why I'm trying it with the 4.5 # spring. I like tinkering so I'm not worried about messing the rather stiff stock OEM FCG as I have plenty of spares in the parts bin.

I did order the $200 Timney but it will probably be a few weeks before I get it.

Anyways, I'll report my results as I "tinker".

It did run well as is right out of the box but with the addition of the slidefire stock gives me the opportunity to experiment. If I can achieve some relative success with my tinkering and others have consistent desireable and SAFE results then that may be a cost effective alternative.

 

[WR Moore]

Trigger reset is controlled by various parts of the trigger, linkages and sear engagements with the hammer. Whacking what amounts to a hammer spur off the hammer will have no effect upon that.

As noted by others, reducing the weight of the hammer may require stronger springs to compensate for the reduction in firing pin energy that will result.

 

[Tango]

Personally I don't think any amount of lightening the hammer will affect its reseting. The only things that affect that imo are the sear engagement surfaces and angles. And the only modding you can do in regards to that is polishing and filing. Although unlike the others I think cutting the bulk off your hammer might actually help it hit harder and help with light strikes.

 

[Allen 1]

GOD I LOVE YOU GUYS! These are the types of questions I live for! EXCELLENT TOPIC!

So, here's my take on trigger reset and hammer weight.

Trigger reset is dependent on the bolt to start the reset process. And since the bolt has the job of moving the hammer once a round has been fired, it only makes sense that the easier we can make the bolts job the faster it can accomplish its task.

So, I ask the question.

What would be easier to move? A heavy hammer? Or a light hammer?

And, which would move faster? A heavy or light hammer?

This is considering that all things related are at a constant. Such as the round we are firing and all related springs and related components. The only thing we change is the hammer weight.

Any time you reduce "mass" the job at hand becomes faster and easier.

So, in my opinion YES. Reducing the hammer weight will increase trigger reset time. It has to. But, you could only take advantage of the reduced weight by also reducing the hammers spring tension. I say this because, if I were to push against a door that weighed 50 pounds, and there was a guy on the other side that weighed the same as me pushing back with equal force I would struggle. Now if I were to replace that guy with a little kid I could easily move that same 50 pound door. The person on the other side being the spring or "resistant force".

It's the same reason we change out recoil springs on a semi auto pistol or rifle when using a reduced power load. The reduced power just doesn't have the "force" necessary to move the bolt at a high enough speed to cycle properly against a "resistant pressure or mass".

But, if we reduce the "resistant force and/or mass" the reduced load can now properly move the bolt and achieve a desired result.

Hold a 5 pound hammer in your hand by the handle and try to swing it back and forth as quick as you can using only your wrist. Not very easy is it?
Now using a 1 pound hammer do the same thing. Much easier right?

If you can prove me wrong on this I would LOVE to discuss this more. You guys keep the gears in my head turning and I welcome a good debate.

Stay safe out there and God bless you all.

 

[Whisper44]

Yeah I was kinda getting there with you view on helping the bolt setting a lighter hammer vs. full sized one. Given in this instance that the everything is getting powered by a .22lr round it only made sense to me that a lighter hammer would not only help with ignition and locktime but also the direct benefit of resetting the trigger that much quicker. Now this wouldn't normally be a concern for if I was just shooting in normal semi auto and I am perfectly happy with the rifle in OEM condition for that purpose. However, since with the addition of the SlideFire stock it got me thinking about if there was anything that could be done with improving the performance with out dropping an additional $200 for a match trigger on a .22lr rifle that is going to running through many rounds in a hurry. However, most have conceded that you gotta to pay to play. The SlideFire stock was not primarily designed to run .22lr in my opinion but for AR15 and AK enthusiasts as an alternative to poor uncontrollable bumpfire gadgets or less than safe technique. I'm sure that SlideFire solutions is addressing the .22lr demand for a working right of the box product for the .22lr market. It would be a stupid oversight not to.

 

[RolandW]

GOD I LOVE YOU GUYS! These are the types of questions I live for!

LOL, Allen 1, as I started to read this thread you came to mind immediately. I could imagine you sitting at your computer like the kid in the back of the classroom poking his hand in the air. "I know! I know! Call on me! Call on me!"
Great stuff. You guys continue chopping, swapping, testing, debating and posting pictures. One of these days maybe I'll summon the courage to tear into my trigger.
BTW, is the 15-22 hammer very hard? Would I be able to machine it with a solid carbide end mill?

 

[Allen 1]

LOL, Allen 1, as I started to read this thread you came to mind immediately. I could imagine you sitting at your computer like the kid in the back of the classroom poking his hand in the air. "I know! I know! Call on me! Call on me!"
Great stuff. You guys continue chopping, swapping, testing, debating and posting pictures. One of these days maybe I'll summon the courage to tear into my trigger.
BTW, is the 15-22 hammer very hard? Would I be able to machine it with a solid carbide end mill?

Pretty pathetic aren't I RolandW...............I've had this problem my whole life. I never played with toys as a kid I just took em apart to see how they worked!

Anyways, I Googled to see if I could find exactly what type of material the hammer is made from and came up empty. I do know it's pretty hard stuff.

You have a carbide end mill!!!!! You da' man!

I would think you could mill it. Heck, S&W had to machine it so I don't see why you can't. Let me know if you do and how it turns out.

 

[Aceman58]

Ok, you got me going, let's do this, take out the stock hammer and replace it with a light aluminum hammer, now test it! If what you say is true it would reset fast and should fire fast.. But if the mass doesn't have enough humpf, you will have a FTF.. this has been engineered to work as a set, modify any one of those and you have the potential to failure, if not all the time once in a while.. and it's that once in a while that you need that shot to go off when it decides not to that really count... even if you're shooting a steel plate... I do love the topic..

 

[RolandW]

Yeah, I have a couple of CNC vertical machining centers in the shop. I'm thinking I can make a fortune turning out rail-mount cupholders for these rifles. Of course I'll have to offer a special 10-ounce model for California.

 

[e577]

Also, I got to thinking about the Slidefire stock itself. Would removing some aspects of the stock not crucial to it's function in an effort to lighten the unit ( i know it's almost crazy to think about cutting into this $350 unit) help with the making the 15-22 work with lesser powered .22lr ammo?

No, not at all. The stock could weigh 100lbs and work the same. It's what's on the on the other end that matters; everything else but the stock that moves with the inertia from the recoil.

 

[Aceman58]

thanks RolandW, that hurt, 10 oz. for Cal. only.. Fluid was released in my pants..(got to keep it clean remember).

 

[Allen 1]

Ok, you got me going, let's do this, take out the stock hammer and replace it with a light aluminum hammer, now test it! If what you say is true it would reset fast and should fire fast.. But if the mass doesn't have enough humpf, you will have a FTF.. this has been engineered to work as a set, modify any one of those and you have the potential to failure, if not all the time once in a while.. and it's that once in a while that you need that shot to go off when it decides not to that really count... even if you're shooting a steel plate... I do love the topic..

Ooooooooo, good point!

But, what we are doing is transferring energy. Would you choose a steel hammer to drive a nail or an aluminum hammer?

The aluminum hammer would never transfer the energy needed to the nail in order to perform the same task as steel (considering the size of the hammer head were the same size as its steel counterpart). It would require multiple strikes. Aluminum would absorb too much of the energy needed and would also dent and deform.

If you weighed the actual hammer of the 15-22 after it was "bobbed" and its size then duplicated that same size in an aluminum alloy, the weight difference would be huge.

So, to achieve the same weight of the original piece using aluminum the part would need to be twice its size or perhaps even larger. So, aluminum would never work.

The only material that works in this application is very "dense" steel if we're looking at energy transfer, which we are.

The same size part in aluminum however and considering what it would weigh, (roughly half the weight of a steel part) would "re-set" incredibly fast however. It would just never last very long or produce the "energy transfer" needed.

 

[Aceman58]

Allen, then you answered the question, making the hammer lighter would create a lighter strike thus may not ignite the primer on the 22 rim.. solved... thanks.

OK, Next subject...

 

[Whisper44]

Aceman58,

Make sure you understand that Allen is referring to an all aluminum hammer would be problematic not a high density steel hammer that has had the hook removed. Many people have had good success with bobbed or speed steel hammers. If you look at the much loved trigger system Timney makes you will notice that the hammer is much like the DIY modified stock hammer or the JP mfg. speed hammer. Thus my inspiration.

 

[Majorlk]

Aceman58,

Make sure you understand that Allen is referring to an all aluminum hammer would be problematic not a high density steel hammer that has had the hook removed. Many people have had good success with bobbed or speed steel hammers. If you look at the much loved trigger system Timney makes you will notice that the hammer is much like the DIY modified stock hammer or the JP mfg. speed hammer. Thus my inspiration.

The same applies to Jard hammers and most other after-market triggers.

 

[Allen 1]

Aceman58,

Make sure you understand that Allen is referring to an all aluminum hammer would be problematic not a high density steel hammer that has had the hook removed. Many people have had good success with bobbed or speed steel hammers. If you look at the much loved trigger system Timney makes you will notice that the hammer is much like the DIY modified stock hammer or the JP mfg. speed hammer. Thus my inspiration.

Correct. Thank you Whisper44.

 

[photoracer]

No the reset time is a function of the design shape and is mostly a function of how much travel the bolt does after the round goes off before the hammer is reset.
I know on the Remington 597 if you compare the action of the Volquartsen hammer, stock hammer and the Jard trigger for the gun what you will find is that the design of the Jard trigger allows it to reset the hammer in about 3/4 the bolt travel required by either the VQ or stock hammer. What this really helps for is to allow you to use less powerful ammo and still be able to cycle the action.