Would you let a nine year old shoot a Uzi?
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Kids shooting machine guns is nothing new, and tragedy is nothing new. It was just a few years ago that a boy about the same age as this girl shot himself in the head with an Uzi while an instructor was by his side and father making a vid. Eerily similar to what just happened. Lots of adults and kids shooting there at the MG meet. It was organized by the local chief of police somewhere in Mass if I remember.
Well before my time at the Club, a kid lost control of a MAC-10. A homeowner in his backyard caught it in the gut over a mile away.
Kids with guns require a lot of good judgement to avoid tragedy.
Well before my time at the Club, a kid lost control of a MAC-10. A homeowner in his backyard caught it in the gut over a mile away.
Kids with guns require a lot of good judgement to avoid tragedy.
A criminal prosecution or two arose from that event you're talking about. I believe it is still winding its way through the justice system.
It's just my opinion that teaching a kid to shoot is the responsibility of a responsible, gun knowledgeable parent. "Fun" shooting, like the full auto shoots we're talking about, should be reserved for after the kid has demonstrated proficiency and safety awareness with "regular" firearms for several years. You wouldn't give your 9 year old the keys to a jet ski after 20 minutes of instruction (at least I wouldn't) so why the rush to assault weapon status? I just don't understand the mindset.
Abbynormal
Member
I've shot Uzi's (full size only), M2's, Mac's in .380, 9mm & .45, Thompson's, MP5's, M16's, AK47's and M60's all in full auto. I learned the first time I shot in rock and roll mode is to hold on tight to the forend with a death grip and pull down tight.
Dad was a Korean war veteran and ex-FBI and he always warned me about how f/a guns climb. He said always fire in bursts not mag dumps. By the 2nd or 3rd time I shot f/a (M1 Tommygun), I had it figured out and I was comfortable enuf to hold the forend down with a death grip and I was literally able to sign my name on a target using one mag.
I know the mini/micro Uzi's have a higher cyclic rate than the full size and the barrel/forend is shorter (hence more climb), I can't imagine anyone letting a 8 year old shoot it lest it is tethered and between 2 vertical rods (which would prevent lateral movement) and more than 1 or 2 rounds in the mag until the student showed aptitude of handling said f/a gun.
Dad was a Korean war veteran and ex-FBI and he always warned me about how f/a guns climb. He said always fire in bursts not mag dumps. By the 2nd or 3rd time I shot f/a (M1 Tommygun), I had it figured out and I was comfortable enuf to hold the forend down with a death grip and I was literally able to sign my name on a target using one mag.
I know the mini/micro Uzi's have a higher cyclic rate than the full size and the barrel/forend is shorter (hence more climb), I can't imagine anyone letting a 8 year old shoot it lest it is tethered and between 2 vertical rods (which would prevent lateral movement) and more than 1 or 2 rounds in the mag until the student showed aptitude of handling said f/a gun.
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kozmic
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At 9 my kids were just graduating from a b b gun to rim fires and small light load guns. They always started out with 1 round in the cylinder or mag and (slowly) worked up from there. This was an accident waiting to happen.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Right.
This tragedy was not about gun training for the little girl, but rather entertainment for the parent.
I can't see a 9 year old girl hounding daddy to let her shoot an uzi. I think there are a lot of stupid human tricks intertwined here.
Should the child be prosecuted in criminal court? Probably not. Parents? Absolutely. Even if there is no eventual criminal liability, the instructor's family can and will have a lot of people by the short hairs. Range, child, parents, all deep pockets. I would go after every cent they have today and will have for the rest of their lives.
Should the child be prosecuted in criminal court? Probably not. Parents? Absolutely. Even if there is no eventual criminal liability, the instructor's family can and will have a lot of people by the short hairs. Range, child, parents, all deep pockets. I would go after every cent they have today and will have for the rest of their lives.
bushmaster1313
Member
When I started my kids out it was on a 22 Henry with one round.
Then we moved to multiple rounds in the Henry.
When we started with the black rifle it was one round at a time until we were sure they could handle it.
Then two rounds.
Then three.
No way a 9 year old with an UZI
Then we moved to multiple rounds in the Henry.
When we started with the black rifle it was one round at a time until we were sure they could handle it.
Then two rounds.
Then three.
No way a 9 year old with an UZI
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
That really shows a lot of concern for this tragedy that will scar a little girl for life. It damn sure is a massive problem for her and her family. That's all I'll allow myself to say for now. I may get dinged anyway.
G.T. Smith
US Veteran
Very bad for everyone involved. No Uzi's for my kids. Mistakes like that hurt all of us. Not just our feelings but anti gun fodder. My prayers for everyone, especially the little girl. Someone somewhere will hopefully make her realize that it was in no way her fault.
peace,
gordon
peace,
gordon
Too much too soon I think.
As stated in earlier posts. most adults can't handle a full auto firearm the first time they shoot one.
I had an local Swat instructor offer to let me shoot his suppressed auto M4 one day. Of course I said yes. But he offended me when he tied the barrel to the bench. But I understood. He didn't know it wasn't my first time. And I knew better than to pull the trigger and keep it depressed. Most people know that full auto is a misnomer. There are very few that can shoot a full auto anything and be effective with it. The rest of us, including 9 year olds should fire 2 or 3 rounds bursts.
I feel for the child. The parents should be strung up by their toes until the child grows up and moves away.
As stated in earlier posts. most adults can't handle a full auto firearm the first time they shoot one.
I had an local Swat instructor offer to let me shoot his suppressed auto M4 one day. Of course I said yes. But he offended me when he tied the barrel to the bench. But I understood. He didn't know it wasn't my first time. And I knew better than to pull the trigger and keep it depressed. Most people know that full auto is a misnomer. There are very few that can shoot a full auto anything and be effective with it. The rest of us, including 9 year olds should fire 2 or 3 rounds bursts.
I feel for the child. The parents should be strung up by their toes until the child grows up and moves away.
Lots of stupid to go around. Parents mostly.
The saddest thing is, the nine year old girl. She probably will be taunted by other kids in her age group. Children at that age can be (from lack of maturity) very cruel.
The saddest thing is, the nine year old girl. She probably will be taunted by other kids in her age group. Children at that age can be (from lack of maturity) very cruel.
ibewbull
US Veteran
I don't know the back story.
Each individual is independent and age of accountability responsibility can vary.
My first born son fired a Ruger Single Action 45 Colt when he was six.
I helped him hold it.I was in control, he did fine. Would I have handed him a 1911 or other semi auto? I doubt it.
My first experience shooting was a Ruger 10-22
My uncle Jack an Army Veteran instructed me.
Shooting was done prone.
I was set into position told if I moved the gun off target , I WOULD BE KICKED IN MY FACE. I kept it pointed at the target.
My kids were older when other weapons were learned. Guessing 12.
I don't think any of them ever fired my HK 91. They can buy their own.
SO THIS MUST MEAN NO FOR ME.
Each individual is independent and age of accountability responsibility can vary.
My first born son fired a Ruger Single Action 45 Colt when he was six.
I helped him hold it.I was in control, he did fine. Would I have handed him a 1911 or other semi auto? I doubt it.
My first experience shooting was a Ruger 10-22
My uncle Jack an Army Veteran instructed me.
Shooting was done prone.
I was set into position told if I moved the gun off target , I WOULD BE KICKED IN MY FACE. I kept it pointed at the target.
My kids were older when other weapons were learned. Guessing 12.
I don't think any of them ever fired my HK 91. They can buy their own.
SO THIS MUST MEAN NO FOR ME.
Inspector-Callahan
Member
Parents placed themselves in the care of the range..
I don't blame the parents in this situation. This "destination" advertises like its an amusement park. It may be stupid that the parents probably wanted to do this so they could put it on facebook, but that is not WHY the accident actually happened. People are also not required to be gun experts or have ANY knowledge of guns to go to one of these places because they are expecting the staff there to provide reasonable guidance and instruction. Unfortunately, the business is also the one collecting fees for this stuff so there is a conflict of interest. The facility needs to have the sense to disallow persons from firing full-auto weapons and forfeit the fees if it is believed to be unsafe. To say, "I'm sorry Mr. and Mrs. Know-nothing-about-guns, your child should not shoot an UZI in full-auto because she would not be able to safely control it."
The fault here lies with the range allowing a child who is obviously unable to handle an UZI, to go with an instructor to fire one. Secondly, it the fault of the instructor for not recognizing the gun is too powerful to be fired full-auto. It's nonsensical how one would think a child of that age and size would be able to control that type of weapon.
Secondly, as an instructor myself, I believe there isn't any "SAFE" area for the instructor to be in my opinion. If the instructor is close enough to reach in and grab the gun, then they could also be in the line of fire (like in this situation). If the instructor is in a safe area behind the shooter and the muzzle, then they are not close enough to control the weapon if it were to turn around on the actual shooter themselves like we saw in the other video with the boy shooting himself with a mini-UZI.
The bottom line is that this girl should have never been allowed to fire this weapon. It was an absolute lack of any rational judgment whatsoever.
The other unfortunate thing is that CNN, CNBC, etc will use this video to portray the NRA and gun owners in general as lunatics who advocate this type of thing. It's bad news for EVERYONE.
IC
I don't blame the parents in this situation. This "destination" advertises like its an amusement park. It may be stupid that the parents probably wanted to do this so they could put it on facebook, but that is not WHY the accident actually happened. People are also not required to be gun experts or have ANY knowledge of guns to go to one of these places because they are expecting the staff there to provide reasonable guidance and instruction. Unfortunately, the business is also the one collecting fees for this stuff so there is a conflict of interest. The facility needs to have the sense to disallow persons from firing full-auto weapons and forfeit the fees if it is believed to be unsafe. To say, "I'm sorry Mr. and Mrs. Know-nothing-about-guns, your child should not shoot an UZI in full-auto because she would not be able to safely control it."
The fault here lies with the range allowing a child who is obviously unable to handle an UZI, to go with an instructor to fire one. Secondly, it the fault of the instructor for not recognizing the gun is too powerful to be fired full-auto. It's nonsensical how one would think a child of that age and size would be able to control that type of weapon.
Secondly, as an instructor myself, I believe there isn't any "SAFE" area for the instructor to be in my opinion. If the instructor is close enough to reach in and grab the gun, then they could also be in the line of fire (like in this situation). If the instructor is in a safe area behind the shooter and the muzzle, then they are not close enough to control the weapon if it were to turn around on the actual shooter themselves like we saw in the other video with the boy shooting himself with a mini-UZI.
The bottom line is that this girl should have never been allowed to fire this weapon. It was an absolute lack of any rational judgment whatsoever.
The other unfortunate thing is that CNN, CNBC, etc will use this video to portray the NRA and gun owners in general as lunatics who advocate this type of thing. It's bad news for EVERYONE.
IC
The right way..........
Start with a pop gun,move to a BB gun and when they show ability with that, a single shot .22 is next and onward from there.
Start with a pop gun,move to a BB gun and when they show ability with that, a single shot .22 is next and onward from there.
The parents are absolutely responsible as they were either ignorant/stupid enough to think and/or get talked into believing that their 9yo (mentally and physically) little girl could handle a fully automatic weapon!
Somebody should've said NO, but didn't. That's WHY it happened.
The rest, I agree with you.
Inspector-Callahan
Member
Ματθιας;138080238 said:
I hear what you are saying for people who know something about guns. If you don't know anything about firearms, then how are you able to recognize that an full-auto UZI is unsafe under supervision of a trained instructor who is telling you its safe? Everybody on any gun forum knows what an UZI is, but not everyone in the real world does. They simply have NO IDEA what capability the gun has or what capability is required to safely fire one. That's why they are placing themselves in the care of a "so-called" trained instructor. For all WE know, the parents were never even TOLD that the gun would be in full-auto mode (if they even understand what that language means!)
What they ARE expecting is that the "professional staff" at the facility are experts and know what they are doing.
If you don't know something, you are unable to say whether it's safe or not. The person that should have said "NO" were the TRAINED people, which were the ones working there.
I think you have to remove yourself from all of the knowledge we have here and pretend that an expert is telling you something is safe and you don't know enough to disagree with them.
The reason it happened is because of a failure of the TRAINED staff to say "No". I guess we will have to respectfully disagree on this one.
IC
My opinion, kind of dumb. Unfortunately, he paid with his life.
There is no reason, in my mind, to let a 9 yo loose with a full auto.
Plenty of years left to get into that later.
I would be VERY careful of anyone shooting full auto , regardless of age.
I really feel sorry for her, too. She has a long life to remember this.
There is no reason, in my mind, to let a 9 yo loose with a full auto.
Plenty of years left to get into that later.
I would be VERY careful of anyone shooting full auto , regardless of age.
I really feel sorry for her, too. She has a long life to remember this.
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Hodgin
US Veteran
I'd like to know what guns the kid had experience with prior to this. My guess is very little if any.
davegarage
Member
I suspect none, and the parents also little. Come on Man.
Why would you take a child from a single shot to fully auto in one fell swoop. Because you want to die.
He was standing on the wrong side.
Peace out.
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