Concealed Carry and Open Carry

Super Trucker said:

So how often do you bang your gun on everything you walk by?
You don't honestly believe a tee shirt prevents this do you?

There are about half a dozen OCers that have had their guns taken from them, guess what, just as many CCers have lost their guns. Again you don't think a tee shirt prevents theft do you?
Do an internet search " concealed carrier loses gun" or has gun grabbed.

Why OC,
hmmmmm its faster to draw.
Those with shoulder/elbow injuries have a hard time moving the magical tee shirt.
The conversations you have with people.
I've switched about a dozen anti gun people to daily carriers by tucking my shirt in, which allows them to ask questions.

If you don't want to OC, then don't but please stop parroting untrue statements.

I started OCing because cops were harassing gun owners. After a decade of educating them I now mostly CC. A group in Michigan had attorneys and filed lawsuits for us then after winning we were able to teach the cops what the laws actually say. You don't hear much about cops harassing gun owners here these days, so it worked.

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I do believe what I said except I didn’t think about my carrying in the waist. Of course a gun would not get banged around if you carried secured. My mistake. I’m not comfortable open carrying and don’t need to advertise. You are comfortable open carrying and have done so successfully. It’s your right. Good luck to you. I hope for all gun carriers that we are always able to carry and protect ourselves. I also hope we never need to.

NC has open carry but it is rare to see someone carry that way unless its bear hunting season and even then its rare / I will say carry how you wish but if I see some carrying uncovered I do tend to watch them as I do not know if there someone with ill intent .

I have CC'd for 37 years going back to my florida years when it was still a may issue state and will continue with concealed carry in on my side at 3:00 .

Brian Parrish said:

I remind you respectfully of the fallacy which is called survivorship bias. Also, I notice that you are using anecdotal evidence which is something we gun people do all the time, on a range of issues.

I don't mind and I don't try to change your mind because I have watched this dead horse get beaten again and again for so long, that I believe that almost nobody will change his mind based on this thread, one way or the other.

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
If my mind depends on stories, then I must learn ALL the other stories before I make up my mind. If there is a story of a crime being prevented because of open carry, then that cancels out the opposite story. If the story happened to me, but the opposite story happened to somebody else is that decisive?

Another consideration is that your anecdote is open to interpretation as you tell it. The OC people will say his situational awareness was off and how they always choose a seat where they can see everything etc. etc. Others will say that they will wait for the right moment when they pull out their BUG and start shooting. Liberals will say this is why nobody should even be allowed. Someone else will say at least everybody got home safe and that is all that matters.

SURVIVOR BIAS
If open carry has value, then part of that value must be in deterrence. However, the stories of successful deterrence do NOT get told. You can try to imagine that you are stopping bad guys, but how do you know? This phenomenon was discussed at length by John Lott in his wonderful book, "More Guns, Less Crime".

Victim selection criteria used by criminals is a very interesting subject. I recommend we put in some study before we conclude that open carry is a way to get targeted for crime. If you openly display anything of value like an expensive handbag from Saks Fifth Avenue, or a pair of Air Jordan tennis shoes or a handgun you could be targeted.

I you are bored with this OC thing, the most helpful site I can recommend is nononsenseselfdefense.com. If you read over there I would love to know your thoughts and/or criticisms.

Best Regards!
BrianD

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I have put thought into it, and I have no bias. The fact still remains that people who open carry are being directly targeted and then robbed of their firearms. The fact is criminals are even attempting to and have actually robbed uniformed police officers of their firearms. The fact is that a firearm is to criminals what crack is to a crackhead, so an OCer will be displaying something that most criminals want.

Let's be logical here. The thought that drug dealers and thugs who kill each other and get into gun fights (knowing the rival gang member or drug dealer is likely armed as well) will be imitated by a middle age to old man who is opening carrying is laughable and illogical. They'll just game plan for a different way to attack you. The fact is that there are countless real world examples (not just my one anecdotal experience) of open carriers having police called on them, being charged with a crime, swatted, harrased, trespassed, and/or being robbed and even killed with their own gun. IMHO, based on the data that I have and what I do know, OC, in general, makes people a target much more so than it will act as a deterrence.

Now, I do not believe OC should be illegal. It makes sense in some limited circumstances and areas, but in general, I stand firm in my opinion that OC is less safe and makes gun owners more of a target both for criminals and those who hate guns. If I were to make a list of possible cons to OC versus cons to CC, the OC list would be much longer. I support those who want to OC responsibly and legally; however, I STILL think it's a terrible idea in most situations.

The urban myth that criminals will be, in general, deterred by the very sight of an open carrier is nonsense. Criminals certainly didn't get the memo. As I previously posted, I've seen a OCer robbed first hand just a few months ago, I've seen several cases of it meantioned on my local TV news stations in the past, and I heard of many other cases OCers being robbed when the holy war OC vs CC debate has been waged on gun forums ad nauseam over the past decade. I directly asked one of the responding officers that responded to the OC robbery I witnessed has he delt with this before, and he told me that he has on several occasions. I was accused of having multiple forms of bias because of my first-hand experience; however, my opinion about OC was the same BEFORE that experience. I used to be very vocally pro open carry, especially during the Obama years and all the firearm protests. I can link to my prior post as evidence of such. My opinion about OC changed based on facts, data, common sense, and multiple examples of OC going badly. I came to the informed conclusion that OC offers a lot more cons and risks than CC.



There's Joshua Wright. Joshua releaved a conceal carrier's handgun in a Walmart bathroom and then pointed the handgun at the victim. Wright knew the conceal carrier had a firearm because the conceal carrier inadvertently flash his conceal carry when his shirt came up in the parking lot as he was walking into the store. His gun was never recovered.

In Medford, Oregon, a Walmart customer was robbed of his concealed carry firearm. Police stated that the victim was not fully concealing his Springfield XD 40 caliber handgun. They spotted him walking into the store from the parking lot partially exposing his gun inadvertently. After entering the store, the customer said he went straight to the bathroom. He wasn’t aware of being followed.

https://www.onlinecarrytraining.com/blog/concealed-carry-owner-robbed-of-gun-at-walmart/

Suspect arrested in Walmart gun theft - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

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Then there's the conceal carrier who was tackled by another customer inside Wal-Mart after the other customer saw the 62 year old conceal carrier "grabbed his handgun from his car and slipped it into a hip holster underneath his coat." The Wal-Mart shopper who tackled the man was inside the store when he seen this.

Hapless hero is left facing charges after he put Walmart shopper in choke-hold when he saw his legally concealed pistol...

A vigilante who put a man in a choke hold without warning from behind when he saw him enter a Florida Wal-Mart with a concealed firearm has been charged with battery.

Hapless hero is left facing charges after he put Walmart shopper in choke-hold when he saw his legally concealed pistol

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I remember the below story when it was first reported. This happened in Richmond, VA. The man who had a CCW permit decided to open carry, he was targeted because of it, and test later showed he was killed with his own gun.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

Teen homicide suspects have criminal histories

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Another open carrier in my state of VA who was robbed for his handgun in broad daylight at 3pm in the evening.

The man said he was approached from behind by two men, and one of them demanded his gun. The other then grabbed the gun from the holster and pushed him to the ground. Both men fled on foot southbound toward the trailer parks, Eley said.

Man wearing handgun open carry robbed in Newport News, police say – Daily Press

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And another one....

Upon arrival officers made contact with a 21 year old male victim who told officers that he had been robbed by two teenage male suspects brandishing a firearm. The victim advised that he was open carrying a firearm within a holster on his hip when he was approached by the two suspects. As the suspects approached him they brandished a firearm and robbed him of his weapon. The suspects then fled but were later located by a patrolling officer. As the officer attempted to contact the suspects they fled but were apprehended in a residential neighborhood near prospect.

News Release Document... - Houma Police Department

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Here's a law abiding citizen who was open carrying his AR15. He was rob of his AR15; however, he was able to shoot at the criminals with the CONCEALED handgun that they didn't see so they didn't take it. The robbery victim shot the thug who stole his open carried AR15 with his concealed carried handgun multiple times!

The individual went inside Wellston Food Market on 6250 Page Avenue open carrying the semi-automatic rifle, but did not use it in a threatening manner and left the store. Outside of the store, shortly before 3 p.m., an adult male confronted the individual, brandished a weapon and demanded the AR-15.

St. Louis Riverfront Times

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Another...

The victim was standing at the counter when the suspect reached into the victim’s pocket and stole a handgun," the statement said. "The suspect then fled on foot.

https://myfox28columbus.com/news/lo...n-street-surveillance-suspect-columbus-police

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Another...

A surveillance camera at the BP at Seven Mile and Wyoming captured the perp in a red Nike hoodie walking up behind a 53-year-old man open carrying a pistol.

He yanks it from the holster, points it at the victim, and takes off running with a second man who appears to be a partner in crime.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/po...from-man-open-carrying-at-detroit-gas-station

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Another....

Witnesses said that around 9 AM, inside a Dunkin' Donuts, the suspect noticed the victim, called Brian Dykes, carrying a firearm on his waistline. The suspect “grabbed it [the gun] from his [Dykes] pants.” The suspect ran out of the store, and Dykes chased after him.

Dykes caught the suspect outside the store in the parking lot and the two men wrestled over control of the gun. According to news reports, the suspect shot Dykes with his own gun, and then fled to a nearby hotel where he was staying.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/safety/man-disarmed-and-shot-with-own-handgun-in-parking-lot/

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Another....

A man waiting in line at Cook Out had his gun stolen out of his holster and police say that another man was shot at by the same gun after pursuing the suspect.

Read more at: https://www.salisburypost.com/2024/...olster-friend-shot-at-after-pursuing-suspect/

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Here's them trying to rob an uniformed officer of his gun.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m78Mm6s8bA[/ame]


John Correia from Active Self Defense who has knowledge of tens of thousands of incidents involving guns also parroted my opinion, which is open carried "guns are magnets for criminals."
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPEaX4HwWyc[/ame]

Here's another...Two separate cases of OCers being robbed in a span of one week!
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdxKBkNzQtY[/ame]

Off duty female officer releaved of her firearm:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMCE75b_kI[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjoF8b5XVow[/ame]

I can post many more. There are even several other YouTube videos that I recall seeing over the years of gun grabs and armed robberies of OC that I unfortunately can not find on YouTube anymore. I could also spam this entire thread with examples of OC having the cops called on them with many being held at gun point. These to a lesser degree, there are swatting cases.

So, your position seems to be don’t carry a gun . . .

I've already stated that I no longer open carry and I've stated why I no longer open carry.

I also feel obligated to say that I really don't care of you choose to open carry or not but I probably won't go out in public with you if you do

Borderboss said:

I want the national GOA to use its (meaning my) money wisely. Fighting Florida isn't it. Do I want you to "do your job"? No, if it's wasting GOA money, which your suit is.

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The time and money is better spent in places like Chicago ?

Yeah; No.

Besides it's hot as heck here in Florida and people should be able to open carry if they choose, especially when they're out hiking.

Thanks for trying to throw Floridians under the bus.

Well Armed, thanks for the discussion!
I did not coin the term "survivorship bias". It is a real thing, and it does apply to our practice of including anecdotes as evidence in these discussions. The "bias" is not in you, it is in the evidence itself because of lacking data.

It does seem as though having a gun taken off of you while open carrying is worse than having it stolen in some other way. A friend of mine had his matching Colt SAA revolvers stolen from his house while he was at church. He wore them openly while shooting at a gun range the day before. They knew he was a pastor, so it made sense to the thieves to steal them when they knew he was out of the parsonage which was located in the same parking lot as the church.

It also seems to be worse to us when you get murdered with your own gun than any of the other ways that you can be murdered.

We cannot figure out a way to talk to all the criminals who decided not to attack someone because they saw that there was someone nearby who was prepared to stop them.

There is a thing called "jugging", where they follow you home from the bank to steal the money you just withdrew. They especially prefer to break into the car when you make another stop at a store on the way home. Regardless of this discussion I hope all will beware.

Kind Regards All!
BrianD

Smoke said:

I've already stated that I no longer open carry, and I've stated why I no longer open carry.

I also feel obligated to say that I really don't care if you choose to open carry or not, but I probably won't go out in public with you if you do

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I'm the same way. I'm against gun owners who dress like G.I. Joe with tactical gear, drop leg holsters, and AR15s on their back who go walking through Walmart and the like scaring everyone half to death in the current climate. I'm against those who conceal or open carry unsafely. It all makes the rest of us look bad and provokes the majority of voters to believe the nonsense the antigunners say about us as well as not support any form of OC. Other than that, I don't care if others choose to OC or not. Just because I think it's a terrible idea doesn't mean I don't believe others should have the right to do it, where legal or permitted on private property.

It's their firearm, life, and risk, and not mine. They have to live or die by the repercussions or lack thereof, not me. I am just giving my personal opinion and perspective so that others who read the thread can be well informed and come to their own conclusions about what's best for them and their situation. My opinion used to be different as well, but it changed over time.

I do both, with open being when at the deer lease or out enjoying nature at it's finest. Concealed when in mainstream everyday life. I don't need to advertise I'm armed but that's only my simplistic opinion and actions

The 2d Amendment to the US Constitution does NOT qualify. Open carry or concealed carry should not be regulated. Additionally, since the US Constitution is the "law of the land", there should be no ban on universal carry by any state in the union.

skwchock said:

The 2d Amendment to the US Constitution does NOT qualify. Open carry or concealed carry should not be regulated. Additionally, since the US Constitution is the "law of the land", there should be no ban on universal carry by any state in the union.

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You are wrong. Federal courts and SCOTUS have stated in case law that the government can regulate firearms, so the regulation of firearms is constitutional. Federal courts (not sure about SCOTUS I have to read Bruin again) have stated that either concealed carry has to be allowed outside of the home and/or open carry, but banning both is unconstitutional.

The U.S. constitution gives the Federal courts and ultimately SCOTUS the power to rule on merits of what's constitutional and what's not. You can't have it both ways. Claim to be pro-Constitution and then also be against the Combat.

Gun owners will continue to lose every right they have due to eating their own.
This thread is a perfect example.

If you don't like open carry, that is spectacular just don't do it, then shut up and move along as you will not change anyone's mind with your science fiction horror stories.

Articles have been written about criminals being caught (waffle house in GA about a decade ago, comes to mind) where they waited to rob a business due to open carriers inside, after the ocer left the cops caught the criminal as they were entering. Not to mention the articles NOT written because the criminal left and nobody knew, but hey those all must be lies because the experts here say it NEVER happens.

I have to exit this train wreck before I say what I really think and get banned.

Super Trucker said:

……….
If you don't like open carry, that is spectacular just don't do it……

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Pretty simple isn’t it? But another of these well worn out threads will pop up in the near future.

Magnum_PI said:

Concealed. My looks speak for themselves. People avoid me. I'd rather they be surprised if the need arose to pull my piece.

I love that Big Dave mentioned the nylon holsters. Oh buddy, you see it every day here in the place I'm in, just going shopping. They walk around with their chest often puffed out like they're special.

So, you dropped $500 + on a gun and couldn't afford a "decent" holster afterwards? Notably, this is often seen at Walmart. Probably where they bought the holster in sporting goods... God help us.

Also, life has gotten far too PC...

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I have my leather all coordinated according to what the style influencers say. Your belt and shoes should match. Of course there are many who scorn this rule which is neither here nor there, but I want people here to know that this helps.

I am in NC and open carry has always been legal here. It does make an important difference for me to be clean, fit, and well groomed and properly tailored in my appearance. I should look "put together" as they say. I am not talking about our God-given 2A rights; I am talking about being a credit to my community and my family and looking the part.

Even our 2A community members who disapprove of OC will think of you as a different category when your shirt is clean and pressed and tucked in and your shoes, your spare mag pouch, and your holster are all matching in color and style. At least they will be less hostile about it. You look deliberate responsible and capable.

Of course it is purely a hot weather issue for me. By September it is time to throw a sport coat on anyway.

What do you think. Am I on the wrong track?

If there's anything that makes gun owners in general look bad about open carry it's this, every Walmart that I go to has a sign out in front asking people to refrain from openly carrying a firearm in the store.

When I see open carriers walk right past that sign and disregard the clear preference of the property owner that makes us all look bad.

Brian Parrish said:

I have my leather all coordinated according to what the style influencers say. Your belt and shoes should match. Of course there are many who scorn this rule which is neither here nor there, but I want people here to know that this helps.

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As long as you don't wear a white holster after labor day

Smoke said:

As long as you don't wear a white holster after labor day

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And never wear brown when in town.

I think that an open discussion on this subject pro and con is very healthy.
Getting different opinions/examples (videos) for or against gives readers an opportunity to give thought too how they carry and may enlighten some, if they OC, as to what could go wrong and if they OC might do differently to carry safely.
The posts brings to light the importance of properly securing your firearm and the need to have a plan if someone does try to get your gun.

I have been in a high end mall with “No Gun” signs and “Gun sniffing dogs” patrolling the hallways to see a armored car guard standing, as he waited for his food order, involved in reading/texting on his cell phone totally oblivious to what was going on around him with people walking close by carrying his gun (exposed too everyone) in a level One nylon holster.
I did report this as a concern to the Security office and mentioned that this was not the first time a guard has carried a gun in this way.

Thanks everyone for your input! JMO

SafeTFirst said:

I think open carry, except for uniformed duty, hunting and maybe hiking, is foolish. I wouldn’t want to give someone with bad intentions an advantage.

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To me open carrying in public is tantamount to having a large sign reading “shoot me first”. I’ll pass thank you. I do OC on my farm or while hunting, but not in other scenarios (and I’ve carried legally for the better part of 4 decades now). When I worked as a firefighter I did not routinely wear the uniform off duty either for the same reason-thought being a thug is likely to attack before reading the badge or patch. I’ve seen a few open carry folks (and it is legal here) but I much prefer they grey man approach. Why would you choose to deliberately draw hostile attention to yourself? (Not just the bad guys, but the soccer moms, Karen’s, and other folks who associate a firearm with criminal intent/thought? ). YMMV.