.38 Failure pre WWI and bad rep of it and 9mm. Why?

kip

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I am researching the .38 and the 9mm. Why did the .38 fail so bad in the war against the tribes that were hopped up on drugs? What makes the .38 special better? How well did the .38 special work on the streets over the years?

Why did the 9mm have such a bad reputation?

The .357 seems to be glorified but it seems as if all of these are the same size projectile. I am a .45 guy so I want to learn about the smaller rounds since they are my back up gun choice.
 
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It all comes down to velocity. the 38 colt and 38 S&W are slow, the 38 spl is faster and 357 faster still. as for 9mm having a bad rep. I'm not sure it does. It's not a 45, but it's not meant to be. It was developed as a compromise of weight and power in the Luger. The germans thought the 30 cal. was to small a caliber.
popgun
 
The .38 special has come a long way in 100 years! There are several Companies offering very formidable defense loads for the 38 Spl. snub nosed revolvers. Last Summer I listed my findings on this Forum when I Chronographed a bunch of .38 Special self defense loads, which you can find here by doing a search.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition offers their 158 grain LSWCHP-GC +P (Heavy) ammo that out of a 2" Model 36, 60, etc clocks an amazing 1025 to 1040 feet per second producing 379 foot pounds of energy. That is low end .357 magnum performance from a 2" revolver using the "big three" Companies 158 gr. Magnums. It is also more energy than a 230 grain Hardball .45 ACP out of a standard 5" 1911!! That's impressive.

Speer Gold Dot has a 135 grain JHP that clocks around 880 - 900 fps. from a 2" snub and is a very worthy offering also.

Double Tap and Cor-Bon also make good defense loads although I am not as familiar with them, but get very good grades on this and other Forums.

Bullet design has also improved drastically. The standard for many years was the 158 Gr. RNL bullet which had very good penetration, but never expanded. The bullets that they have come out with now are much better and reliably expand, give good penetration and expel their energy inside the body cavity, so they do their job. I think today's 38 Special ammunition choices are quite excellent and I feel very confident carrying Buffalo Bore ammunition in my Chief's Special 2" revolver.

By the way, I do believe the O/P was talking about the 38 S&W which is NOT the same as the 38 Special. That is an anemic round to say the least!

regards,
Chief38
 
And, remember that in the first 50 or 60 years of the .38 Colt, .38 S&W, and .38 Special, a plain RN lead bullet was standard. The .38 Long Colt held 18 grains of black powder. The .38 Special was increased to 21 grains of blackpowder. The standard bullet for almost 60 years of the 9mm was a FMJ. They were considered "good enough" for civilian police and military use at the time.

Pistol caliber stopping power was first studied in the Thompson-LaGuardia series of tests that resulted in adoption of the .45 ACP M1911. Up to that point, large-caliber pistols (.38-40, .44 American, .44 Russian, 44 Special, .44-40, .45 Colt, etc were favored in the American West, and various .32 and .38 S&W were considered adequate police calibers in the east.
 
All of the pistol calibers have failed to stop a bad guy at one time or another. Look at the Wiley Lynn/Crockett Long shootout. Wiley Lynn had a .38 pistol and Crockett Long had a .44 Special. Wiley hit Crockett four times, and put Crockett on the deck. Crockett hit Wiley four times with his .44 Special, and two of those in the vitals. Lynn walked away and across the street before collapsing and died the next day. Crockett Long died much sooner.
Lee Harvey Oswald was shot and killed with a single .38 Special. He hit the ground and never got up.
Again every caliber has failed to stop the bad guy, it just happens. Part of the problem was always the bullet. Those old 158 grain soft lead bullets left alot to be desired. Now we have hollowpoints and even good jacketed soft points. Personally I have nothing against a .38 Special, and have carried .357's, .41 Magnums, .41 Specials, .44 Specials, .44 Magnums, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. I believe that the best caliber is the one that you can shoot the best and most accurately. Personally I like the .357 Magnum and have always liked it for personal defense. One thing I was always taught was to learn human anatomy. Hunters learn where to place a bullet for a quick kill, for personal defense we should be no different. As the old saying goes, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44.
 
As mentioned, velocity is the missing link in your research.

As to 9mm, it has a bad rap because it is a small, weak, un-American cartridge. At least that's how some view it. Anything with millimeter in the name is suspect, especially if you compare it to 45 Automatic Colt Pistol or 40 Smith and Wesson. Also, the US Army actually evaluated the P08 Luger for possible adoption. The results were unsatisfactory. Various trials and tests in the first decade of the 20th Century told them that a small cartridge was unacceptable, and they didn't want another Philippines fiasco. They wanted a big cartridge in an American-made gun, and Colt gave it to them in the 1911 and 45 ACP. If you look at the original requirements for the 45 cartridge, they are very similar to what the 45 Colt cartridge provided. No doubt senior leadership at the time had grew up in the ranks using their trusty Colt SAA firing 45 Colt cartridges, and they felt comfortable with that level of performance. Some felt unsure autoloaders to begin with, so at the least they wanted a cartridge they believed in.
 
Whatever has been said about projectile development in the .38 Special goes double for the 9mm. Improvements there were delayed even longer due to feeding concerns. As recently as the late 70s, when many ammo makers had fielded .38 Special JHP and JSP, about the only 9mm HP ammo that had hit the market was Super-Vel and many of the available pistols required significant 'smithing to function reliably using the stuff. 9mm FMJ is an "icepick' compared to the .45 ACP hardball's "sledgehammer" and had a well-deserved reputation for over-penetration. Market forces prevailed when the Illinois State Police and others adopted the M39 and M59 and officers demanded better ammo. Once ammo was improved the Wonder-Nine revolution was under way.

The major benefit of all this is that while they were at it the ammo manufacturers also brought out good .45 ACP JHP loads.
 
There was more to the .38 S&W's failure than just it's weak performance. The tribesmen did use drugs, but they also bound their chests tightly (think as in broken ribs) which tended to compress the skin and nullify any open wound and bleeding. Had the US troops stuck with the .45 Colt in that campaign, it's possible the .45 ACP may not have become the legend it is today.

The 9mm round worked well enough for the Germans in WWI and II. I think a lot of subconscious "It's not American" distaste turns some off.
 
According to history the .45 was developed not b/c the .38 wasn't stopping the enemy, but b/c it was not knocking down their horses. The .45 ball was developed to do just that - and it did. Most of the myth of the immediate knock down from a .45 is just that, myth.
 
I think it is also beneficial to look at what European developers were doing at the same time period. Most major European armies were using large caliber DA revolvers and bolt action rifles when we were just getting around to breach loaders. The British in particular, based on their experience with "natives" around the world, were early advocates of DA training.

As was mentioned in Europe the 9x19 was considered a step up from 30 caliber semi automatic ctgs, however remember that the sidearm was a badge of rank as much as a weapon.

The 38 Colt has similar ballistics to the 36 percussion revolver. So it kind of makes sense that when US arms boards decided to follow the European trend of smaller calibers they would try a ctg version of a former military caliber, the 36.

While 36 caliber revolvers were certainly issued and carried by all branches in the Civil War, the only accounts I've ever found of revolvers fired in combat by Union troops that stated caliber mentioned the 44's. So I wonder if the 36's tended to end up with with support personnel and the 44's with combat arms. FA units seemed to particularly like them
 
The .38 special has come a long way in 100 years! There are several Companies offering very formidable defense loads for the 38 Spl. snub nosed revolvers. Last Summer I listed my findings on this Forum when I Chronographed a bunch of .38 Special self defense loads, which you can find here by doing a search.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition offers their 158 grain LSWCHP-GC +P (Heavy) ammo that out of a 2" Model 36, 60, etc clocks an amazing 1025 to 1040 feet per second producing 379 foot pounds of energy. That is low end .357 magnum performance from a 2" revolver using the "big three" Companies 158 gr. Magnums. It is also more energy than a 230 grain Hardball .45 ACP out of a standard 5" 1911!! That's impressive.

Speer Gold Dot has a 135 grain JHP that clocks around 880 - 900 fps. from a 2" snub and is a very worthy offering also.

Double Tap and Cor-Bon also make good defense loads although I am not as familiar with them, but get very good grades on this and other Forums.

Bullet design has also improved drastically. The standard for many years was the 158 Gr. RNL bullet which had very good penetration, but never expanded. The bullets that they have come out with now are much better and reliably expand, give good penetration and expel their energy inside the body cavity, so they do their job. I think today's 38 Special ammunition choices are quite excellent and I feel very confident carrying Buffalo Bore ammunition in my Chief's Special 2" revolver.

By the way, I do believe the O/P was talking about the 38 S&W which is NOT the same as the 38 Special. That is an anemic round to say the least!

regards,
Chief38

How would the 38S&W compare to a .380? It doesnt seem like the weight of the .38 special is that much greater than the 38S&W so I am wondering why there is a ballistic difference.

I am stuck between these two loads for a j frame
Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

DoubleTap Ammunition
 
According to history the .45 was developed not b/c the .38 wasn't stopping the enemy, but b/c it was not knocking down their horses. The .45 ball was developed to do just that - and it did. Most of the myth of the immediate knock down from a .45 is just that, myth.

I have heard this as well, but I don't believe it entirely. Not only stopping enemy horses, but stopping your own. If a soldier on horseback fell off his horse and his foot got caught in the stirrup, he either had to shoot the horse to stop it or be dragged to death. The 45 Colt could handle such a task and so could the 45 ACP. For reasons of nostalgia and lore I wish this were true, but a whole lot more went into the requirements for and development of the 45 ACP cartridge.
 
Velocity is not the missing ingredient. The 9mm has always had lots of it; nearly double that of the .38 S&W.
 
As to the reputation of the .357, that was the go to law enforcement round for a very long time. As such, there was a lot of round and projectile development to improve it's effectiveness on the street. As a result, it became the most documented and most effective LE revolver round. Semiautos became all the rage during the wonder nine years, and LE fell into the same belief the military had/has. More rounds down range equals more effective firepower. The nine millimeter, during that phase of development, was less effective than the older but more thoroughly developed .357. That was the reason for LE going to the 10mm, then the .40 S&W (called by some the .40 Short and Wimpy). Things have changed a ton over the last 20 years, with even the smaller rounds like the .25 and the .32 getting more attention and more development. I guess all this rambling leads to the conclusion of shoot what you like, ammo has never been better. It's more important to hit what you are aiming at with a smaller caliber than to miss every time with a hand cannon. But if you can hit with the hand cannon, more's the better!
 
It was the .38 Long Colt that failed in the 1899-1902 fighting against Moro tribesmen in the Philippines, NOT the .38 S&W. (In its 146g LRN @ 685fps configuration, the .38 S&W probably would have experienced failures similar to those suffered with the 150g/770fps Colt lead bullet that was the standard US Army-issued ammo at that time.)

Without opening the "stopping power" can of worms too far, suffice it to say that a round-nosed lead bullet of small/moderate caliber, at low-medium velocities, basically drills a caliber-sized hole through a human target. It doesn't expand & it doesn't cause remote neural shock, apparently. Based on physical wounding characteristics alone, such ammo is unlikely to immediately incapacitate an attacker unless it happens to hit the central nervous system. And fanatical attackers such as some of these Moro tribesmen are exactly the type of target that doesn't quit just because they realize they've been shot, either.

The .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was a slightly lengthened version of the .38 Long Colt, with a slightly different & more accurate 158g bullet design. Its police & civilian record as a "manstopper" was also spotty, although there is some indication that heavy 200g LRN bullets may have helped marginally through tumbling and almost certainly through more decisive damage to bone structures when these were hit directly. Basically, however, the development of reliable expanding bullets in the past 40 years have made the .38 Special a much more effective "fighting" cartridge.

Take a look at http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/98749-38-s-w-load-devopment-pt-1-a-4.html for some information on the .38 S&W cartridge & its history as a US police & British military cartridge. Shorter and slower than the .38 Smith & Wesson Special, this cartridge was sometimes known as the ".38 Super Police" when loaded with a 200g LRN bullet, and the British Army of the 1930s adopted a very blunt-nosed 200g version (aka .380/200, .380 Rimmed, etc.) for general service. Subsequently, concerns about the international legality of this ammo led them to adopt a 178g FMJ bullet, which suffered a bad reputation that lasts to this day. My own amateur experimentation & research indicate that this bad rep was probably a result of three things: ammo weakened spectacularly by poor storage; the drastic accuracy limitations of the Enfield DAO revolver design; and the fact that British WWII soldiers were saddled with the slow reload inherent to a revolver, whereas their opponents & allies all carried automatic pistols as primary sidearms.

Take a look at the page link I provided and see if you agree with me that (1) properly functioning .38 S&W 178g FMJ ammo is NOT exactly a weak sister--the old stories about its inability to penetrate a German overcoat were almost certainly a result of a powder charge that had degenerated through improper storage. Other credible reports of the bullet barely leaving the muzzle of the gun point clearly to an ammo malfunction NOT attributable to design. (2) When loaded with a flat-nosed 200g bullet moving at the slow 600-ish fps velocities of the old Super Police and British Mark I ammo, the straight-line penetrative power is pretty dramatic. (6 water-filled milk jugs, straight-line thru & thru.)

Ian Skennerton's book on the Enfield .380 Revolver (again, Brit terminology for their version of the .38 S&W cartridge) cites British military tests from the 1930s that assert that the original Mk I 200g blunt-nosed ammo was equivalent in stopping power to the .455 Webley. Other Brit reports apparently stated that the testers concluded that the combination of lighter gun & smaller caliber would make it easier for hastily-trained wartime soldiers to use this weapon rather than the old, large .455 revolvers.

Until I can get my hands on these reports and read them for myself, my personal supposition remains that the latter statement was definitely true, as a .38 is more user-friendly to a novice than is a .455. The former statement would seem to be an exaggeration of some sort. . .but it may have simply reflected British experience that torso hits with either .455 or .38 non-expanding bullets were an iffy proposition when it came to stopping power, although either definitely had the ability to decisively smash bone structures they happened to hit. The Brits had used expanding bullet ammo in .455s pretty extensively, but generally used non-expanding bullets in WWI (against "civilized" opponents). They knew a lot about fighting with handguns--I imagine at least as much as did the US military--and I think that lends great credibility to their experience & testing. Again, though, until I read the reports and/or learn about the tests & the testers' backgrounds, their results must be viewed as an intriguing issue to research, not as proof of the equivalency of .455 and .38/200 (.380 Mk I).
 
The British always like big, slow bullets.......I saw an article on some MASSIVE caliber revolvers used during the Indian mutiny, and Zulu wars, etc.......percussion revolvers in .60 caliber, Tranter cartridge revolvers in something like .58 caliber, very short cartridges with huge lead bullets. British officers had to purchase their own sidearms and so they often bought big manstoppers.

.38 S&W is a weakling compared to the British 38/200 (or 380), I have fired both in my Victory revolver and there's a big difference. .38 S&W was born as a round for fragile break top pocket revolvers, the S&W and Webley can take rounds that would quickly loosen up an old S&W .38 breaktop.

The old .38 Special 158 gr. LRN was the standby for police from the 1900's-50's or so, this round is now seen as "anemic" for defensive use, now that metallurgy has advanced and .38 Special snubs can handle hotter +P rounds. Now, it seems the lightest round most people "in the know" recommend for defense in a .38 revolver is 130 gr. +P HP.
 
Based on physical wounding characteristics alone, such ammo is unlikely to immediately incapacitate an attacker unless it happens to hit the central nervous system.
Is there any caliber that is not subject to this limitation?
 

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