Need some .380, hollow point ammo..,

BE Mike said:

Thanks for your expert and knowledgeable opinion!

Click to expand...

Well, that was the general opinion on .380--stick to
ball, avoid JHP--about twenty years ago!

Try Norma

I've owned two Walther PPK/Ss, a W. German gun and one made in the States. Both had occasional extraction/ejection issues with factory ammo. This prompted some research and I learned that Europe tends to load their ammo a bit hotter than domestic ammo and European made guns are sprung for the higher recoil energy.

Norma ammo is European made and I suspect that it will cause the least issues with Walther firearms.

Cal44 said:

Not trying to be sarcastic here. And it's great that these Xtreme Defenders work for your wife.

But has there been any cases of these bullets used in actual SD shootings?

Do you know if any PDs use these or recommend them (in service calibers)?

I have a Sheriffs deputy friend you carries them, but only off duty I think.

Kind of an interesting concept, but real world results would be nice to know about.

Click to expand...

The only actual uses I've seen involve hunting scenarios in different calibers than .380. I can't imagine that they'd be inferior to .380 ball.

Steve912 said:

Well, that was the general opinion on .380--stick to
ball, avoid JHP--about twenty years ago!

Click to expand...

The Lehigh bullets feed as reliably as ball. Maybe time to change your paradigm?

I still use ball ammo for a .380 in my LCP II, if the HP ammo is better it's not by much and ball should be the most reliable.

Another rolling tempest in a small teapot. Popcorn? Anyone have popcorn?

Engineer1911 said:

Another rolling tempest in a small teapot. Popcorn? Anyone have popcorn?

Click to expand...

You can have some of mine...

BE Mike said:

The Lehigh bullets feed as reliably as ball. Maybe time to change your paradigm?

Click to expand...

I've had trouble with ball ammo in my P238 HD.

Failure to feed.

On the other hand, hollow point (like XTP loads) feed perfectly with no failures.

I think for some reason the over-all-length of some ball ammo is a problem for my gun. The flat nose FMJ bullets feed fine.

Obviously, the main thing is choosing something that works in your gun.

BE Mike said:

The Lehigh bullets feed as reliably as ball. Maybe time to change your paradigm?

Click to expand...

Dunno...what's a Lehigh--ball, JHP, polymer/powdered
metal screwdriver tip?

This is 2020, not 2000. My paradigm is carry JHP. What's
yours?

Doug M. said:

Most of the time, the best choice in a .380 is a quality ball load, because otherwise you are not likely to have adequate penetration. If you are sure about getting HPs, there is only load authorized by LAPD now that they allow .380s for OD/BUG use. I can't recall it, but if you get that, you will be as good as it is going to get assuming that it feeds reliably.

Click to expand...

BC38 said:

This is generally the consensus. Rather than HPs which either won't expand, or if they do will have reduced penetration, maybe consider some heavy for caliber truncated cone. Something around 100gr with a flat nose at least half the diameter.

Click to expand...

Doug's advice was the general consensus but it was a bit dated even back in 2014 when he posted it.

There are some good hollow point options now but you have to be mindful of the barrel length and the effects of velocity on expansion and penetration.

Good long barrel (3.5" to 4") loads:


Hornady 90 gr XTP

There are a 4 or 5 commercial loads using the Hornady 90 gr XTP that will expand to about 1.5x their original diameter and penetrate 12" in 10% ballistic gel - provided you launch them out of a 3.5" or longer barrel where you can get around 1000-1050 fps muzzle velocity. They'll work well in a PP, PPK, PPK/S, RIA Baby Rock, Bersa Thunder, etc, but not so well in something like a 3.25" Glock 42 or a 2.75" P238, Kimber micro, etc as the velocity will be down around or a bit under 900 fps.


Remington 102 gr Golden Saber

This load needs a long barrel and velocities around 950 fps to expand reliably. However it also expands slow enough to give excellent penetration to around 14". It's a great choice in a PP or an RIA Baby Rock where you've got 3.9"-4.0" of barrel to work with.


Good short barrel loads (2.75" to 3.25"):


Hornady 90 gr FTX

The 90 gr FTX will expand well to around .5" and penetrate about 13" at velocities around 900 fps, making it a good choice for short barrel .380 ACP pistols like the P238 and Kimber Micro

In a longer barrel with velocities in the 1000-1050 fps range it will expand more rapidly and penetrate less - down in the 10" range. That's still excellent performance for a face to face self defense shoot, it just doesn't meet the FBI's 12" minimum penetration requirement.


Sig Sauer 90 gr V Crown

When launched at around 850-875 fps it will penetrate about 13 inches and reliably expands to about .5" making it a great choice for a short barrel .380 ACP.


Speer 90 gr Gold dot

At around 900-925 fps they'll expand to around .5" but slightly under penetrate to around 11". They'll still expand but penetrate better in a 2.75" barrel where the velocity is down around 850 fps, making it a good choice for a Sig P238, Kimber Micro, etc.


-----


The wisdom to use a truncated cone flat point FMJ with a large meplat goes all the way back to the days of the Hatcher rating, where the round nose FMJ was assigned a factor or .9, while the flat point FMJ was assigned a factor of 1.05. That compared to 1.0 for a round ball, and 1.25 for a Kieth type LSWC with a large meplat. Hatcher did his work on livestock and human cadavers, across a broad range of cartridges, so the assignment of those constants isn't specific to the .380 ACP.

In modern practice using ballistic gel the flat nosed truncated cone FMJ doesn't produce significantly more permanent wound cavity than a round nose of equal weight. What the flat nosed FMJ does do is pose the same feeding challenge to the pistol as a truncated cone shaped JHP, and it'll guarantee over penetration in the 24" range in 10% ballistic gel.

So here's the thing. People are choosing to use a flat nose FMJ where it's 100% guaranteed they'll get zero expansion in order to ensure they get penetration and that penetration will always be excessive.

These same shooters, if they don't want to use one of the good loads for some reason (lack of availability, etc) would probably be better served by one of the hollow points that expand inconsistently at .380 ACP velocities. For example the 102 gr Golden Saber when launched at short barrel .380 ACP velocities will still expand about 40% of the time and give 14-15" of penetration when it does expand. When it does not expand you get 25" FMJ style penetration and the same very slightly increased permanent wound cavity that you'd get with a flat nosed FMJ. Still, 40% of the time you get good hollow point performance and excellent penetration compared to 0% of the time with flat nosed FMJ.

Steve912 said:

Dunno...what's a Lehigh--ball, JHP, polymer/powdered
metal screwdriver tip?

This is 2020, not 2000. My paradigm is carry JHP. What's
yours?

Click to expand...

I don't think that JHP in .380 caliber penetrates enough. You can look up my link to the Underwood ammo.

If I used a hollow point it would probably be Underwood +P 90 grain at 1200 fps.

BE Mike said:

I don't think that JHP in .380 caliber penetrates enough. You can look up my link to the Underwood ammo.

Click to expand...

I'm with Mike here. I opted for Underwood's loading of the Lehigh bullet for my Kimber Micro 380 pistol. The ammo is expensive, but given the stakes involved in using a self-defense round, I wanted to give myself the best chance of success if I do my job in placing my shot(s) correctly, heaven forbid that I ever have to.

I also use them in my 9mm pistol, for the same reason.

Ammo choice for SD is a highly personal decision, so I offer the above just as an additional recommendation and option to hollow points.

And yes, I do realize this is a six-year-old thread, but the issues discussed here are still topical.

A lot of opinions out there.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVfStJS5XQw[/ame]

I owned a PPK/s many years ago, twisted in my grip worse than a Colt CLW Commander with .45 ACP rounds. Your hand may vary.

Geoff
Who thought the pistol was better in .32 ACP, but there are many more modern and ergometric guns on the market.

Farmer17 said:

If I used a hollow point it would probably be Underwood +P 90 grain at 1200 fps.

Click to expand...

That is approaching 9mm levels of power.

When you push the limits like that reliability suffers. Which is probably even more true in the very small 380s popular these days. Combining a gun that pushes the limits on how small and light a 380 can be with ammo that exceeds SAAMI limits sounds like a bad idea.

If you are going to shoot this ammo in a larger gun why not just get a 9mm?

.380

I carry a Beretta 84 FS, it loves those Sig Saur 100gr FMJ's. They have some serious thump. I stack them alternately with Hornady Critical Defense. First one in the tube is always the FMJ. They both hit to the sights perfect. If I was stuck with one type of .380 ammo it would be those Sig Saur Elite 100gr FMJ's

Who manufactured your PPK? Was it a new model out of Fort Smith Arkansas or an older model? I ask because older models can be finicky with JHPs because the PPK predates their widespread adoption and was designed for FMJ. However, any Smith & Wesson or Walther Arms USA model should feed them no problem since they feature a redesigned feed ramp which allows them to reliably feed JHPs.

That being said, I use Hornady American Gunner 90gr XTPs in my S&W PPK/S which feed 100% reliably.
Literally, the only malfunctions I've ever experienced were from me short stroking the slide or using out of spec rounds with substantial bullet setback which I really had no business shooting.

Ignore folks telling you to use FMJ because JHPs don't penetrate deep enough, modern ammo has long since overcome that limitation and pretty much anything featuring the XTP bullet will expand and penetrate to 12" consistently. FMJ will overpenetrate, likely resulting in collateral damage, and do pitiful tissue damage to the intended target in the process.
Besides, the FBI calls for 12" of penetration because that's how much is necessary in an absolute worst case scenario in which the attacker is behind cover such as a windshield, car door, mailbox, etc and holding their firearm in such a way the the bullet would also have to penetrate their forearms. Under ordinary circumstances in which you may have to shoot some thug who's attempting to mug you at point-blank range, 10" of penetration would be perfectly adequate.

Oops, didn't notice this was an ancient thread.

Doug M. said:

Most of the time, the best choice in a .380 is a quality ball load, because otherwise you are not likely to have adequate penetration. If you are sure about getting HPs, there is only load authorized by LAPD now that they allow .380s for OD/BUG use. I can't recall it, but if you get that, you will be as good as it is going to get assuming that it feeds reliably.

Click to expand...

I prefer Winchester white box Flat Point FMJ.
According to ballistic gel tests I've seen, wound channel is a little wider than RNFMJ, and still penetrates very well. Cheap price as well.

BB57 said:

Doug's advice was the general consensus but it was a bit dated even back in 2014 when he posted it.

There are some good hollow point options now but you have to be mindful of the barrel length and the effects of velocity on expansion and penetration.

Good long barrel (3.5" to 4") loads:


Hornady 90 gr XTP

There are a 4 or 5 commercial loads using the Hornady 90 gr XTP that will expand to about 1.5x their original diameter and penetrate 12" in 10% ballistic gel - provided you launch them out of a 3.5" or longer barrel where you can get around 1000-1050 fps muzzle velocity. They'll work well in a PP, PPK, PPK/S, RIA Baby Rock, Bersa Thunder, etc, but not so well in something like a 3.25" Glock 42 or a 2.75" P238, Kimber micro, etc as the velocity will be down around or a bit under 900 fps.


Remington 102 gr Golden Saber

This load needs a long barrel and velocities around 950 fps to expand reliably. However it also expands slow enough to give excellent penetration to around 14". It's a great choice in a PP or an RIA Baby Rock where you've got 3.9"-4.0" of barrel to work with.


Good short barrel loads (2.75" to 3.25"):


Hornady 90 gr FTX

The 90 gr FTX will expand well to around .5" and penetrate about 13" at velocities around 900 fps, making it a good choice for short barrel .380 ACP pistols like the P238 and Kimber Micro

In a longer barrel with velocities in the 1000-1050 fps range it will expand more rapidly and penetrate less - down in the 10" range. That's still excellent performance for a face to face self defense shoot, it just doesn't meet the FBI's 12" minimum penetration requirement.


Sig Sauer 90 gr V Crown

When launched at around 850-875 fps it will penetrate about 13 inches and reliably expands to about .5" making it a great choice for a short barrel .380 ACP.


Speer 90 gr Gold dot

At around 900-925 fps they'll expand to around .5" but slightly under penetrate to around 11". They'll still expand but penetrate better in a 2.75" barrel where the velocity is down around 850 fps, making it a good choice for a Sig P238, Kimber Micro, etc.


-----


The wisdom to use a truncated cone flat point FMJ with a large meplat goes all the way back to the days of the Hatcher rating, where the round nose FMJ was assigned a factor or .9, while the flat point FMJ was assigned a factor of 1.05. That compared to 1.0 for a round ball, and 1.25 for a Kieth type LSWC with a large meplat. Hatcher did his work on livestock and human cadavers, across a broad range of cartridges, so the assignment of those constants isn't specific to the .380 ACP.

In modern practice using ballistic gel the flat nosed truncated cone FMJ doesn't produce significantly more permanent wound cavity than a round nose of equal weight. What the flat nosed FMJ does do is pose the same feeding challenge to the pistol as a truncated cone shaped JHP, and it'll guarantee over penetration in the 24" range in 10% ballistic gel.

So here's the thing. People are choosing to use a flat nose FMJ where it's 100% guaranteed they'll get zero expansion in order to ensure they get penetration and that penetration will always be excessive.

These same shooters, if they don't want to use one of the good loads for some reason (lack of availability, etc) would probably be better served by one of the hollow points that expand inconsistently at .380 ACP velocities. For example the 102 gr Golden Saber when launched at short barrel .380 ACP velocities will still expand about 40% of the time and give 14-15" of penetration when it does expand. When it does not expand you get 25" FMJ style penetration and the same very slightly increased permanent wound cavity that you'd get with a flat nosed FMJ. Still, 40% of the time you get good hollow point performance and excellent penetration compared to 0% of the time with flat nosed FMJ.

Click to expand...

Lots of interesting info there BB57. I admit to not having looked at a lot of .380 data in the last few years, but I never remember seeing any data that showed a 380 penetrating 25" out of a sub 3" barrel. Could you share your links for where you got that data?