Heard that there will be some changes in regards to Federal fire arms laws involving curios and relics, suppressors, and short barrelled rifles and shotguns.

Does anyone here think that the "sawed off" shotgun will make a comeback? Also. if it does, will it put the handgun for home defense market in jeopardy? And in closing, how will state and local laws figure into this if it does happen?

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The Last Standing Knight

If "sawed off" means less than 18" of barrel length (which I believe to be the shortest for shotguns) then I imagine that would be covered under the short barreled rifles and shotguns right? I don't think sawing down a shotgun barrel by yourself is any different than buying a factory short barrel but maybe I'm in the dark on this one.... which wouldn't be the first time! Check out the Black Aces shotgun/pistol configuration if your into the short barrel without NFA regulation.


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An experienced LE officer told me some years ago that they don't charge people for just having a sawed off weapon. If you are arrested on another charge, they will add possession of a shortened barrel to the list of charges against you.

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Dr. B

What I've read is if you saw it off with criminal intent is a crime in itself, but just sawing it off is not a big deal. I wouldn't take one outside my property, though.

UPDATE: I was told that this is incorrect by Muss Muggins. See post #25 for verbatim quote of the law and note that it forbids even possession of a sawed of shotgun. I'm not sure where I got misled but thanks to MM for pointing it out.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I wouldn't bet my felony free life on that statement. I never knew a cop that would pass up a chance to file a federal charge. I used to see lots of fellas whose wife called the cops to report a domestic violence incident and then mentioned "By the way, he's got a sawed off shotgun behind the door." The cops lost all interest in the domestic violence part of the call pretty quickly. As for actually firing a short barrelled shotgun, last guy I saw at the range with a tricked out 14" barrel 12 gauge blacked his own eye. An ATFE agent I knew cut his finger test firing a 12" double barrel with the shoulder stock also sawed off. Looked like Jerry Reed's shotgun in Gator. I wouldn't want either one.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

There is some effort at hand to try to remove suppressors from federal regulation. Not that I'm listening hard, but I'm not aware of anything on barrel length and would expect it's pipe dreams. No pun intended. Home hacksaw jobs are still covered by NFA rules.

Quite a few states have their own regulations on what constitutes a short barreled long gun. What ever the feds might or might not do has no effect on state law.

And, all things considered, SBR/SBS still need two hands to operate, can have vicious recoil and would have little, if any effect on handgun sales.

That is incorrect.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I don't know about other states, but in this state, you can also be charged with possessing a weapon of mass destruction. Seriously. Especially if it's a heavily/dangerously modified shotgun.

And for normal "sawed off" shotguns, the 18-inch barrel limitation isn't the only requirement. The gun, itself, can't be shorter than 26-inches overall.

I don't know where you read that, but by Federal Statute, when you cut it off too short, you committed a criminal act............unless you're a duly licensed manufacturer of such devices.

The Hearing Protection Act of 2015 did not pass the 114th Congress.

It is believed that the legislation has a good chance under the incoming Administration

Not only does it remove suppressors from Title II of the NFA it also preempts the existing State Laws regarding suppressors.

The legislation does not alter the status of Shot Barreled Shotguns or AOWs

I built this one for myself last summer.
I also have one of the NEW Mossbergs on order

You might want to reach out to Randy Weaver and see how much heartache sawed off shotguns can be.

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- Change it back -

While it is at the extreme edge of the issue, I think Randy Weaver would disagree with that comment

Seems to me that a short barrel rifle with a supresssor attached would be a great hunting rig, no longer than a normal rifle overall and much easier on the ears. It seems really dumb that such a setup currently requires two tax stamps and wouldn't be legal to use for hunting in many places.

A while back the ATF argued in court that merely having a shotgun and a hack saw amounted to owning a sawed off shotgun. I think the judge couldn't stop laughing.

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Dick Burg

I'd like to see a link to a news article or a case cite . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

IN the 80's and 90's I had a 12 gauge Crescent SxS that someone had cut the barrels to 22". It was great handling. It actually scattered a pattern more than I liked, but then I wasn't trying to rob banks.

Ivan

I was given a Crescent 12ga SxS by a family member....it was 30" F/F. I cut it to 19". It balances and swings like a champ. Recoil???... I use my own reloads which are a hair under 7/8 oz. I wouldn't want to cut it any shorter

Bonk. it is a serious federal felony to cut down a rifle or shotgun to be less than the minimum federal lengths. Only someone who subscribes to the beliefs of those weirdo types who claim that all taxes & courts are illegal utter that type of thing.. many, many people have gone to prison for merely possessing one. Do not urge someone to commit a serious felony here.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Just get the Mossberg Thunder ranch O/U......... 18" barrels and tatic-cooool rails..........

Have to admit I've thought about one for ATV/RZR use in Penn's Woods.

IMHO a shotgun without a stock.... may look cool...... and may work in the movies...... I wouldn't waste my money on one!!!

I had an Savage doublee (311?)) Ended up with a Winchester double and a Remington 870. Cut the Savage to 18.5 barrels and shortened the stoke some. Handy dandy. Mostly it rides around in the back seat of the truck (empty) during hunting season. Deer hunting and run into some pheasants or some turkeys gun. I wouldn't want it any shorter, loose to much control and it is very compact now. Some things have a useful length length limit.

That is correct!! It seems that some posters are thinking that just sawing off a barrel is illegal. If the overall length is over 26 inches AND the rifle barrel is 16 in. or the shotgun barrel is 18 in. it is not illegal. Larry

Tell that to Randy Weaver.

A "dangerously modified" shotgun?

Would that be like cutting the barrel with an angle grinder, barefoot on wet concrete floor, in yer skivvies, with no eye-pro?

Since this is a Federal law I'm sure that you are right. However, I'm perusing our state laws to find whatever language that I read in the past to base that on. Unless I do, I'll go with your answer.

UPDATE: Ok, I found the laws and copied them verbatim. You are right, simply possessing a sawed off shotgun is breaking the law.

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SECTION 16-23-220. Unlawful transportation of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle within State.

It is unlawful for a person to transport from one place to another in this State or for any railroad company, express company, or other common carrier or any officer, agent, or employee of any of them or other person acting in their behalf knowingly to ship or to transport from one place to another in this State a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.

SECTION 16-23-230. Unlawful storing, keeping, or possessing of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle.

It is unlawful for a person to store, keep, possess, or have in possession or permit another to store, keep, possess, or have in possession a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.

SECTION 16-23-240. Unlawful sale, rental, or giving away of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle; exceptions.

It is unlawful for a person to sell, rent, give away, or participate in any manner, directly or indirectly, in the sale, renting, giving away, or otherwise disposing of a machine gun, or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.

SECTION 16-23-250. Exceptions to application of article.

The provisions of this article do not apply to the Army, Navy, or Air Force of the United States, the National Guard, and organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive machine guns, military firearms, or sawed off shotguns or sawed off rifles, from the United States or from this State and the members of these organizations. Any peace officer of the State or of a county or other political subdivision, state constable, member of the highway patrol, railway policeman or warden, superintendent, head keeper or deputy of a state prison, correction facility, workhouse, county jail, city jail, or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases or persons on duty in the postal service of the United States or a common carrier while transporting direct to a police department, military, or naval organization or person authorized by law to possess or use a machine gun, or sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, may possess machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles, when required in the performance of their duties. The provisions of this section must not be construed to apply to machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles kept for display as relics and which are rendered harmless and not usable.
The provisions of this article do not apply to any manufacturer of machine guns or military firearms licensed pursuant to the provisions of 18 U. S. C. Section 921 et seq., any person authorized to possess these weapons by the United States Department of the Treasury, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, or any other federal agency empowered to grant this authorization, any common or contract carrier transporting or shipping any machine gun or military firearm to or from the manufacturer if the transportation or shipment is not prohibited by federal law, or persons licensed pursuant to Section 23-31-370.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I have 2 SBRs and 1 SBS with paper work on the way for another SBS. The SBS that I have is magical. It is a Remington 870 with rifle sights and a 12 inch barrel. Shooting 1 to 1 1/4 ounce slugs at tractor disc at 100 yards is great fun as everyone that that shoots always hits the first time. After that not so much, they get kinda flinchy. The other side is that shooting at a 4X8 sheet of plywood at the same distance it will not put 1 pellet on the board! It is for all purposes a .72 cal carbine. I have SBRs that are an 8 inch AR and a 10 inch Tommy. All of these are easy to get they just take a little time. Speaking just for myself, these short "long" guns are much easier for me to shoot.

It's not unusual at all for state law to be more permissive than federal law. As an example, Missouri law formerly prohibited previously convicted felons only from possessing concealable firearms. That caused quite a kerfuffle when a previously convicted felon who was aware of that law was arrested by the feds in possession of a shotgun. As you might imagine, the feds gave not a tin cow dropping about the state law. The offended party often argued to the Court that his state probation officer told him that he could have long guns as long as he wasn't violating federal law. The miscreants generally ignored those last eight words, and were astounded when their deer rifle became a problem. Missouri fixed this a couple years ago.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Just one last thing from me on this. I have in my safe a 14 inch Benelli brl for their Marine Corps shotgun. We were told that for my friend to have it in his possession WITH the shotgun in his home, before the paper work comes back is prima facia evidence that he INTENDS to put it together. The visiting agent, while telling us this with a smile, was DEAD serious. This also falls into the column of "if they want you..they will get you."

I worked a killing where a Navajo fella fired from inside his house and killed another Navajo gent in his yard. There was just enough "gray area" to cause the US Attorney's Office to decline the homicide case based on a presumption of self defense. Too bad for the shooter he was a convicted felon and his 12 gauge H&R Topper was cut down to just in front of the forearm. Ten years.

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Rule of law, not a man.

I used to buy lots of used Mossburg 500 shotguns. I'd put on a pistol grip and cut the bbl to 18.5"s no less, never wanted to error. Guys would ask for 18 but I said nope.

It was a good market for a while.

Ha, Ha and tell me why you want a front sight?

ARTICLE 5

Use and Possession of Machine Guns, Sawed-off Shotguns and Rifles

SECTION 23-31-310. Definitions.

When used in this article:

(a) "Machine gun" applies to and includes any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any combination or parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

(b) "Sawed-off shotgun" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length.

(c) "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger. The term includes any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell but does not include an antique firearm as defined in this section.

(d) "Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length.

This was copied from South Carolina gun laws. The definition of "sawed off shotguns and rifles" is overall length less than 26 in. and shotgun barrels less than 18 in. and rifle barrels less than 16 in. Sawing off barrels is not a sawed off shotgun. Larry

Ruby Ridge happened over sawed off (1/4" under) shotgun.


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For those who are interested, Hickok45 has a YouTube video on a sawed-off double 12ga on loan (proper term?) from a Class 3 dealer. I believe the bbl length is 14". He compares group sizes with buckshot against his 20" Rossi coach gun. Frankly, there is no comparison: the 20" Rossi is light years superior to the sawed-off in patterning. Before this video, the sawed-off had been a grail gun for me. No longer (or should that be "no shorter" ).

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

can you cite a source on this?

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Nominated for "Best Self-Answered Question" post of the year!

I knew Randy Weaver before he moved to Idaho. You too?


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I remember reading that quote too, a long time ago, it seems. Might have been a Ayoob writing or in the American Rifleman.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Unregistered sawed-offs will get you jail time for possession. I know a guy who did time and is now a convicted felon for possession of a sawed-off during a traffic stop. They will, make no mistake, enforce the law on the books.

Now let me complicate things - there ARE, for sure, Ithaca Auto-Burglars that have been excluded from the NFA by the BATF. James Julia offered two for sale a couple of years ago with the BATF letters. No registration, but you better haul that letter around with you... They were excluded not by class or make, but by serial number, making them uniquely excluded, which does not extend to other Ithaca Auto-Burglars. If you search this forum, you'll find an older post where we've discussed it before and there will probably be a link there as well.

As far as patterning, my sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels patterns only marginally worse, maybe, than my Mossberg 500 ATP with a cylinder choke. I'll have to find the pictures and upload them to photobucket, but it seemed to be not all that different between the two. Cylinder choke is cylinder choke, after all. I haven't done serious checking, maybe I'll do that next range trip.

Also, this thread is better with pictures.. I can't afford an Auto-Burglar, so I made what I could with what I could afford.

Pictures are good!

So, I dug around and found the targets I used to pattern the sawed-off...

I used Aguila Minishells with 7 and 1/2 shot for ammo. Minishells are much easier to shoot comfortably out of the sawed-off, and I wanted to make sure I put the shot where I wanted it.

Both circles are the size of a Folgers Coffee container lid, despite the pictures making one look smaller, and both were shot at ten yards.

Full disclaimer - I know this isn't the best way to pattern a shotgun, in fact, it's pretty irrelevant as a test. It's just a comparison I did quickly just out of curiosity. I don't relish the though of taking out OOB and doing a bunch of serious work seeing which brand and load does best out of the sawed-off compared to the Mossberg. It's not why I have the sawed-off.

I have the sawed-off because, as a kid, I watched the movie pictured in JK-linux's post above and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Now I know better from a practical point of view, but there's still a fascination about short barreled shotguns for me.

Mossberg 500 ATP - 18.5" barrel with no choke, cylinder only:



Sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels, no choke:



Not a whole lot of difference. 33 versus 36 pellets out of the circle at ten yards. Pattern out of the sawed-off is slightly more diffuse, but at that range it is not the hallway-clearing pattern so many people expect it to be.

ETA: Added info, tried to fix rotated photo but couldn't. Sorry about that.

Same argument applies if you have a semiautomatic firearm and also possess the parts (or even one part) which can be used to convert it to full automatic, even if you keep the part(s) in your sock drawer. You then are considered to have an unregistered and illegal NFA weapon.

Just googling around, I happened upon this example of (some sections of federal gov) attitudes. "That some weapons are inherently violent".....
viz: Argument analysis: Justices unhappily consider whether sawed-off shotguns are inherently violent : SCOTUSblog

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Halfway and one more step