I am having a temporary set back in attempting to shoot my Christmas present 3 boxes of 32-20 WCF 115 gr round nose soft lead in my old 1921 S&W.

My indoor range will not allow all lead ammo. All ammo (except 22 rimfire) MUST be FMJ or Semi Jacketed. I don't want to risk membership by sneaking any in........so found an outdoor range that doesn't have ammo restrictions, but only has 15 yard (45 feet) and 25 yard (75 feet) handgun dedicated lanes.

I'm good with these old eyes to about 10 yards (30 feet) (give or take a couple), with the very good indoor lighting and no wind conditions.

I'm going to signup at the outdoor range simply because I love to still shoot the M1 Garand, and the sons and daughters are liking every rifle and handgun I've got in inventory and they will be fun on the bench style rifle ranges (100 yards plus). The grandkids love the Nylon 66's I have too so money won't go to waste.

As stated............I REALLY need a decent quality spotting scope that will show me what I did (or didn't do) at 15, 25, 100, 200 YARDS. I don't care about cell phone attachments or any other gimmicks, but all that I reviewed on line even Vortex, at under $400 seem to all have a very high percentage of BAD reviews, crummy optics, bad resolution, broken parts, terrible focus, poor or non-existent customer service, etc. et. al. ad. infinitum.

Cannot afford $1,000 and up for top tier stuff, so hoping maybe one or more of you real time shooters that use spotting scopes will share what you KNOW is a decent one for what I need (targets....not prong horn across the half mile wide valley).

The range is typical outdoor (fixed frame, plywood backers), The whole COLD range callout & wait every time you want to change targets, or place mark your shots....and I just hate to be the hold up for everyone else.

Sorry for the long post but I'm really looking for some advice from guys/gals that use a scope.

Thanks very much in advance.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I can highly recommend a vintage scope - Bushnell Spacemaster. I bought one for $100 off Craigslist almost 20 years ago in a case with a table top tripod. Great scope. You can interchange eyepieces or get an adjustable power eyepiece. Mine came with a 15-45 power eyepiece. A 15, 20 or 25 power eyepiece is all you need out to 100 yards. The variable one is really nice to lower power if sighting in at 25 yards. I just checked eBay and there are a bunch available most for under $100. The first link is exactly the scope and eyepiece I have. Second link is the tripod.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196158674898

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126280499630

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...+scope&_sop=12

Attached Images

IMG_9308.jpg (102.8 KB, 41 views)

With glasses my vision is correctable to 20-30, so for what its worth 200yrds and under 400.00 i don't think can be done. Maybe if you have 20-20 or better vision.
I have an Opticron 20-45 that I can see .30 cal hits at 100 in good light on paper targets. might get 150 or 200 with splatter targets. I think I paid around 300.00 for it.
Did a bunch of reading before I got it and most everyone said 200+ yards is going to take expensive glass.
not much help I know, I couldn't afford better glass so I walk if I shoot farther. It's a pain, but gotta do what you gotta do.

I'm not an optics pro by any means, but I've looked at some online reviews that are quite disappointing. Many of the reviewers don't know much more about optics than I do. As a result their reviews appear to be very subjective and flawed, not anywhere close to being objective.

You may be right in that you don't get much today with a $400 spotting scope. Even a cheap scope will probably work (at least minmally) for up to 100 yards. A clear and vivid 200 yard image may be asking too much of an inexpensive scope but some cheaper scopes may be barely adequate.

I'm still using a Bushnell Spacemaster 15x-45x that I bought new about forty years ago. They were around $250.00 at that time but mine still works for up to 200 yard spotting, but not much farther. These are likely available used as they were quite popular for years.

For distances beyond 200 yards, I use a much more expensive spotter, in a price range you indicated you had no interest in. You often get what you pay for, but if looking for a new scope, I would guess there should be some in the above $500 range that might suit your needs.

Be careful on the magnification. A high magnification with a cheaper scope is often unusable. At 200 yards, a 30x that you can see clearly with is far more useful than a 40x that shows a horribly fuzzy, distorted image.

If possible, don't buy any SS without looking through it first. Some cheap scopes are almost as bad as having nothing. I have a very old (>50 years) Unertl with a 25x eyepiece that does everything I want at up to 100 yards and is usable at 200 yards. I notmally do not shoot much at 200. As suggested, check Craigslist, Gunbroker, and eBay for used scopes but try to find a name brand. My scope has straight through viewing, i.e., the eyepiece is not angled. Personally I greatly prefer that type to a scope having an angled eyepiece. Others may have a different opinion.

I have a friend who is happy using 8x binoculars to spot at 25 yards. You might try that first.

I’ve been very pleased with my Leupold 30x gold ring I bought many years ago. Just googled it and it’s $700 at Midway. (Yikes! I didn’t pay that for it 15+ years ago.). It’s clear and light and packs well, in addition to working well off a bench. You might watch for these on the Bay or the List used, keeping in mind Leupold’s warranty is great.

When I got started shooting at the local CMP matches at my club I didn't want to speed $1000-1500 for a spotting scope. Upon the advice of some guys that had been running the club for a long time they recommended I look at the Konus 20-60x X80mm spotting scope. I have been perfectly satisfied with the service this scope has provided. However, all of our shoots are limited to 100yds and reduced sized targets. that being said, I am still able to see .223 holes in the black (hopefully) at 100 yds. .30 cal holes are no problem at all at 100yds. The scope is light but a little on the bulky side for overall size. Price is very reasonable. The angled eye piece is a HUGE plus as it allows you to keep the scopes center of gravity mounted lower for stability.
The club also has several ancient Bushnell spotting scopes they loan out to new shooters on the line.

I like my old 20x Leupold Gold Ring ( one of their first Spotters. ) They can be found used.

Also; a used B&L Discoverer or Redfield 15x60 are good. You'll find that staying between 20x and 30x will serve you well.

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Sceva
OGCA SWCA NRA

For 100yds or less I would go with high quality binocs. I have Zeiss 10x40 B that are over 40 years old. From a steady rest (elbows on bench or bags) easy to spot out to at least 75yds, 100+ if you use shootnsee targets or painted steel. Much better investment as they have been great for many years of hunting, ballgames, critter watching and more. Just my $.02

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PTLAPTA!

I have a Celestron Ultima 80 that works fine out to 200 yards. There are certainly better scopes out there, but this one works just fine,for seeing holes in paper. I’ve also used it to see 4 of Jupiter’s moons. Not bad for less than $250!

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George

The people I shoot with have had very good luck with Vortex products. They have options at different price points. The Diamondback product line offers some features you wouldn't expect in a $400 spotter and the same great warranty as the more expensive models.

It isn't about the magnification! It is about clarity and light gathering. My 15-year-old Celestron has the typical 20-60 x eye piece for longer rifle distance, but my objective lens is 88mm and gathers light even on cloudy days! Celestron is far less than the traditional names, but they are made in Asia (if that matters to you.) If my shot is in the black, I can see 22 cal hole to 300-350 yards, I can spot the impacts on clean steel plates to over 1000 yards. Mine was a demo model for $175 when I got it.

Ivan

I have only used a few. One is mine but it's a cheap one, can't even remember the name but would never reco it anyway. The other is my shooting bud's and it's a Leupold. Don't know the model, but it's SUPER TOP NOTCH! Leupold always seems to make nice stuff! The scopes I have are also Leupold and they have always performed wonderfully.

I have an off-brand called a Barska 55-40 x 50. I haven't used it for a while but I recollect it was very useful to see little bullet holes in distant targets.

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Come and take it!!

And just by the way, if you can handle the scope, I want to pass along a tip I learned shopping at a nice store a while back. “Can’t make up your mind which scope to get? Here, let’s go over to the front door and look at a brick wall.” Seriously, looking at that brick wall about 75 yards away showed serious differences in scope quality. How clear and sharp the corners of the bricks and mortar lines looked. Were they equally clear from edge to edge, etc. Now, was it worth the difference in price point? In some cases, yes.

For my use, I’ve found extra weight is a good thing
in spotting scopes. I’ve had a light scope go skittering
off the bench in a stiff breeze.
The Bushnell Spacemaster is heavy enough to stay put.

I was looking to get an Athlon Talos scope but I may take your advice on the Spacemaster. I never shoot over 100 yards.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

You can depend on a good B&L Spacemester. I have a small collection of spotting scopes (19 total). Several are Spacemasters, I have a couple with the 15-45X eyepieces. I have a Leupold 15-45X spotting scope and is just barely is better than my Spacemasters. I have my spotting scope in a old hard scope case, in there, there is room for the spotting scope, scope stand and a set of binoculars. The post about bino being useful at the range is the true, mine are 20X though, not 8X.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

A 20 power is all that I use, here in Nevada, since extra power does not do well in 80 plus temps with the heat waves, that makes every thing do the "Hula dance".

A 10 power should work at 100 yards if you have fair eye sight and good glass.

Good luck on finding something.

If it hasn't been mentioned, yet. It is maybe more important to have a soild tripod.

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George

I've used many tripods. If you're using a spotting scope for the range, I've not found anything better than the two-legged model that's been sold by Freeland's for decades. A regular tabletop tripod would be second. Get a good one. Cheap ones are worthless.

A solid scope stand is a must! The cheap stands tend to vibrate with any movement of the surface they are sitting on.

The Freeland bipod stand is great, but a bit pricey. I have one.

I use old three legged stands from the 40's & 50's (tripods), Tasco, B&L and Freelands. Not cheap either. NC Star made a very good tripod stand at one time, but stopped making them.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...tands&_sacat=0

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

My old Unertl SS has a very sturdy tripod. Not absolutely certain it is original to the scope but it looks like it is. I bought it used and that was over 50 years ago. When I bought it, it was missing an eyepiece. I wrote Unertl to see if they sold eyepieces, which they did, so I ordered a 25X. It wasn't very expensive, maybe $10 or so, but I don't really remember.

I am currently using a Leupold 20x60 Alpine and it does a fantastic job.....another scope if you could find used would be the Kowa TSN-1 with the 25X Long Eye Relief angled eyepiece.

This scope dominated the world of High Power rifle shooters.
Randy

I too have a Barska. I bought it for my bullseye box because my Celestron scope wouldn't fit into the box and I got tired of carrying it separately. I bought it, thinking that it was Russian but it turned out to be made in China. I haven't had a complaint about it, the clarity is good and I can see bullet holes clearly. The thing about Chinese products is they are just as willing to make good products as ****** products, if the person ordering is willing to pay for the good product.

I also have an old Celestron that I bought nearly 30 years ago. I never used it beyond 100 yards but it clearly resolved bullet holes at that distance.

It's been decades since I took a class on optics but as I recall a big objective lens gives finer resolution and also gives a brighter image.

For outdoor handgun shooting I use 10 X binoculars.

For rifle I bought a cheap compact telescope from Costco.

Most of my scopes allow me to see hole from bullets in the 30 cal range out to 100 yards.

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2B1ASK1

I second post #11. Vortex is hard to beat for the $. The OP doesn't mention a budget so I would also look at Leupold, Kowa, and Swarovski. All quality scopes

OP mentioned in his original post he had looked at $400 scopes and reviews were not good, then says he can not afford $1000 scopes.

A good B&L Spacemaster or Spacemaster II will be between $100 -$250. I have never paid more than $80.00 for any of the ones that I have(B&L's). I do have a Leupold that I paid $150.00 (IIRC).

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Will just throw this out there as it might be useful to some.

Bought a Weaver T36 and use it on a tripod and various rifles.
Can see .224" holes at 100yds on light paper with a dark berm.
Have not been to any 200yd plus ranges but will take it to the park and try it eventually.
On the tripod, not a rifle, while the Mrs holds the target.
Will punch some .224", .357" and .45" holes and get back to
you all.

Prior to that I bought a new Bushnell SS and the glass was spotty and the others at Lous Police Supply were spotty as well.

As stated, buy a good quality used SS as recommended above.
T36s are no longer made but are available at the
Dock near the Bay.
Fixed power scopes can be tricky to use.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

Spoke with my brother and he uses two old Balscopes.
One is a Balscope Sr and the other a 15x-60x Balscope.
Just for birdwatching etc.

As a factory authorized tech for RayMarine, formerly
known as Raytheon, not X,
I asked Flir to borrow/test a thermal scope to
watch Trap shooters miss.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

I have seen the longshot camera system that reaches to 300 yards and wifis the picture back to your phone or tablet..I realize this is a little higher than your 400 ($449.00),,and I dont know anyone that has used it, but it gives a clear picture of the target....might be an option. Good luck.

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Guy Godios
VVA chapter 77

FLIR? We have those on our birds back in the 80's. Would not have thought to watch Trap with it!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Let’s talk about the physics and the physiology involved for a minute.

I’m an armature astronomer with my own observatory in the backyard so I’m pretty well nerved out on how optics work.

There are several things that help produce better, sharper, images.

1) Resolution, or the resolving power, of a spotting scope is an artifact of its objective lens diameter. The larger the objective lens the smaller the details it will be able to make out.

So the larger the objective lens the better.


2) Lens quality also matters as a high quality objective lens will produce sharper images than a low quality objective lens of the same diameter. Once a lens is producing the sharpest possible image it is referred to as “diffraction limited”, which just means physics says the image can’t get any sharper.

So the larger the objective lens the better, *as long as the quality is decent*

That creates some potential compromises as given equally good quality, larger objective lenses cost exponentially more to make. For example an 80 mm objective is only 20mm larger than a 60mm lens, and is only 33 percent larger. But it might cost twice as much to make the lens to the same level of quality.

3) There’s also the focal length. Longer focal lengths either require longer tubes or a series of mirrors or prisms to bend the light back and forth inside a shorter tube. Since spotting scopes need to be reasonably short, they have short focal lengths usually no longer than f/5 and that has an impact on depth of field and in turn how much distance can be in focus at the same time, and how precise the focus has to be to get a sharp image.

So, a short focal length spotting scope needs a focuser that is precise. That’s also a trade off as more turns to focus is less convenient, and a focuser that is too slow with lots of turns lets your eye adjust and makes it hard to precisely focus. Ideally it will have a larger knob for quick focus and then a smaller knob stacked on top for precision focus, not not many spotting scopes have that feature.

But even with a single speed focuser you want one that doesn’t have a lot of hysterisis or sloppiness in the adjustment.


4) More magnification isn’t better, and exit pupil is very important. Way too many people think that more magnification will make small things easier to see and that’s not the case. Exit pupil is the reason.

Exit pupil is the objective lens diameter divided by the magnification. In other words a 60mm spotting scope at 20x will have a 3mm exit pupil. In comparison a 80mm spotting scope at 20x will have a 4 mm exit pupil.

On a bright shimmy day when the pupil in your eyes is around 2.5 mm in diameter it won’t make much difference.

But on a heavy overcast day when your pupil is about 4mm the difference is significant. The 4 mm exit pupil of the 80 mm scope will fully illuminate the retina in your eye, while the 3mm exit pupil in the 60mm scope will not fully illuminate your retina. The end result will be an image that looks both grainy and dim.

With a 60 mm objective that over cast day, the magnification would need to be reduced to 15x to get that same 4mm exit pupil and a bright, non grainy image.

So…a larger objective not only produces a sharper image, it also allows you to use more magnification, and more magnification under lower light conditions.

5) Fixed versus variable magnification - two things are important.

First, looking at a telescope also keep on mind that the realistic maximum magnification is going to be what it can produce with a 4 mm exit pupil. 50mm = 12.5x, 60mm = 15x, 80mm = 20x. Most variables will advertise and offer magnifications twice that or more. But you’ll rarely be able to use that much magnification and get a sharp image.

Even when you can, it’s a lot easier to use the scope of its putting out a much larger exit pupil. For example an 80mm scope at 15x produces a 5.3 mm exit pupil and on a reasonably bright day when your pupil is 2-3mm wide, the extra room makes viewing through the scope easier.

A longer, wider eye relief also helps and that’s an artifact of the eye piece design, with more expensive multi lens designs costing more money, but giving an easier to work with eye relief.

Second, fixed magnification spotting scope designs make it much easier to keep all the lenses in alignment, and they cost less to produce to a given level of quality. You might for example be able to get a more expensive eye piece that offers better eye relief for the same money as a variable magnification scope.

But you need to be careful and make sure the fixed magnification is has isn’t exceeding the exit pupil and magnification limits discussed above.

6) Lens coatings have a big impact on image quality and brightness. Lens coatings reduce the amount of light that is reflected back by a lens. For example an un coated lens might reflect 10% of the light that passes through it (about what automotive glass does). With a single lens it’s not a big deal. But when you have an optical doublet in the objective lens plus a three more lenses in the eye piece, you’re now down around 59% of your original light.

Good lens coatings can reduce that reflection to around 1-1.5 percent per lens. With 1.5 percent and 5 lenses, the light through put is around 93% compared to just 59%. At 1% the through put with 5 lenses is 95%, so it’s better but there’s obviously a point of diminishing returns.

Advertising is also important. “Coated” means the objective lens is coating, perhaps only on one side. “Fully coated” means all the lens surfaces are coated. “Fully Multi-coated” means all the lens surfaces are coated with two or more coatings.

Each lens coating works best at a certain wavelength and multiple coatings ensure there is minimal internal reflections at wavelengths for red, blue, and green light.

So you want fully multi coated lenses. Beyond that lens coatings are very proprietary and good coatings can produce very nice color fidelity and brightness.


7) there’s also different optical systems.

The rainbow produced by a prism happens because the light refracts and separates in the prism. The same thing happens in an objective lens. It bends the light and the different colors then come to focus at different focal lengths. That’s where a long focal length telescope (f/9 or higher) is better as it will have very little chromatic aberration. But a spotting scope at f/5 or so will have a fair amount of chromatic aberration.

It creates both a loss of focus (as the different wavelengths focus at different points) as well as false color which will be see as a purple fringe around a bright white object. Some folks don’t notice it much, others notice it a lot.

Achromatic lens systems reduce the chromatic aberration by using a double of flint and crown glass in the objective lens to bring two of the wavelengths of light to the same focal point with sharper focus and less false color fringing.

Apochromatic lens systems use a three piece triplet in the objective lens to bring three wavelengths (red, blue and green) of light to the same focal point with an even sharper image and no false color fringing.

There’s also ED glass which is “extremely low dispersion” glass. That just means the objective lens doesn’t spread the focal lengths of the different wavelengths as far apart. ED glass costs more than regular flint and crown glasses, but it means an achromatic lens system using ED glass can produce excellent images that rival a much more expensive Apochromatic system.

8) So far we’ve been talking about refractor telescopes that uses a lens to bend the light. But there are also reflector telescopes that use a curved mirror.

Again, objective size matters. Bigger mirrors collect more light and create sharper images.

The same focal length issues apply as well but since they reflect the light back in a single mirror Newtonian telescope and back and forth in a Schmidt Cassegrain or Maksutov Cassegrain telescope the focal length can be 2-4 times as long in the same length tube.

Most Cassegrain design scopes will have focal ratios of f/8, f/9, f/10, f/12 or even f/14 or f/15. Those longer ratios make focusing easier by increasing depth of field. Since they also use mirrors rather thanon objective lens they don’t have any chromatic aberration.

But the downside is that they are less robust and may need periodic collimation (alignment) of the primary mirror.

Another downside is that Cassegrain scopes have a central obtruction in the corrector lens at the front to support the secondary mirror. That obstruction reduces the image sharpness/ resolution of the scope.

So, no false color or chromatic abberation, but less image sharpness. But…if it’s got a big enough mirror, it makes up for it. The Maksutov Cassegrain design also uses a smaller secondary mirror and will give a charger image than a Schmidt Cassegrain of the same size.

In short, a 5” / 127mm Maksutov Cassegrain can make a very impressive spotting scope and can be had for around $500-$600. The Mak-Cass style scopes also travel better than the Schmidt-Cass scopes with less risk of losing colimation.

A 90mm Mak-Cass is also a good option.

These scopes all come with separate eyepieces and you can use different eye pieces to change the magnification. Plus you can get a good quality eye piece with excellent eye relief and viewing comfort.


——

What’s that mean in the real world?

For one it explains why some very old scopes keep getting recommended.

For example the Bushnell Spacemaster II is a 50 year old scope, but the optical and mechanical quality was excellent and with the 60mm objective and a 15x eye piece it offered good resolving power and exit pupil in a compact and durable scope. (You could also screw different eyepieces in the back, but anything higher than 15x came with compromises.)

——

I have a Vortex Diamond-back 20-60x85 spotting scope and still have it. It’s not a bad scope.

However, I prefer my Leupold 20-60x80 SX-2 Alpine. The lens coatings are better, it gives a brighter image with better color, and the eyepiece is better with more comfortable viewing (even though the eye relief itself is about the same). The focuser is also better on the Leupold. It offers more bang for the buck in my experience.

I use it mostly at 20x where it has a 4mm exit pupil and if it were a fixed power scope I’d be just as happy with it.

BB57,

Darn, you are long winded. Great info, but wasted on this old Jarhead. I use whatever I can see the best image of the target. I use Spacemasters quite a bit and a Leupold. All have variable eye pieces. I do have several sets of the screw in eyepieces.

AJ

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Very good explanation.

Caught that on My second read. Sorry. I would still recommend Vortex. $600 will get a very useable clear scope.

I have an old Bushnell Televar 20x that I've had for about 40 years. I've hunted elk, deer, bighorn sheep and antelope with it. Shot prairie dogs and used it in NRA highpower competition. I've packed it on a horse, a backpack and in the back of the truck. The resolution is good enough that I've seldom felt the need for more magnification. All that and it has never failed me. I also have a Vortex Viper HD 15x45, I believe, that is much more modern. It's much bulkier and heavier and, frankly, the optics don't seem any better than the old Bushnell. I seldom use the Vortex, I use the Bushnell to this day all the time. Guess that tells you which one I like. I still see them on Ebay sometimes. I think there's one there now for about $135. You don't have to spend $1000 to get a good spotting scope.

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Everybody could shoot

It seems that armature astronomers are all "coiled up" on the subject of spotting scopes but, provide an excellent explanation on the topic.

I use a Vortex 20-60 x 85 Diamondback. It has worked great for birding. For the range I would give thought to the smaller 15-45 x 60 Diamondback. I have nothing bad to say about their spotting scopes, binoculars or rifle scopes. I have them all. I think they represent a great bang for the buck. In the under $500.00 spotting scope market there is a lot of junk. Good luck!

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paws for friendship

At 100 yards you can get by with a cheap scope, right? My friend got a $60 spotting scope and can't seen anything at 100 yards even in the best conditions. So, don't even THINK about it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

There are always exceptions and a $60 spotting scope is beyond cheap, more like a toy.

I’m not going to recommend a cheap scope because I once had one and it was what it was, a cheap scope. I was a high power shooter when I was younger and I have a unertyl and couple Kowas and they will do the job and the children and grandchildren will be using these for years to come and I don’t remember the price of any of those scopes and I’m not a wealthy man but I believe quality is the Best Buy.

I currently have a Burris Landmark 15-45X60 that I bought used 10 or 12 years ago. I also have wanted a better spotting scope to seel ,22 cal holes in a black target @ 100 yards. The Burris will do this on a bright day, but on a cloudy day overcast day, all bets are off. I have tried several new, including a Konus with an 80MM objective. All that I tried did not work any better than what I have.
The comments about the Bushnell spacemaster are making me want to try again.

To the new posters of this thread...please see my "UPDATE ** Spotting scope recommendations from real users" separate post of 01-28-2024. I don't know how to link it here, but I did buy the Bushnell and already had a good sturdy tripod. The UPDATE post has pics and I can tell you I'm very satisfied with this setup.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

The link: UPDATE ** Spotting scope recommendations from real users!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

....Vortex Diamondback for a good price off of Ebay. I can see the grains in the mortar of a house across the street. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to pick out .22 holes at 100 yards with it. I'm a happy camper.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"