Your carry is spotted in a restaurant. What would you do?

[oldman45]

Your situation differs a little. The difference is he put his hands on you. I would respond the same way you did if someone put their hands on me.

But in a situation where there is no physical contact, it is very unwise to escalate the matter while armed.

One never knows when things will escalate or what others will do. I was taught to get the element of suprize on the agressor and the person approaching is the agressor.

On a side note, I read this morning about a local man that shot another man because the man playfully swatted the shooter's grandmother with a flyswatter in the trobossas. The shooter is now in jail and the victim is in ICU. Never know when an armed person will snap and never know when a person is armed.

 

[watchmanjimg]

One could infer, more reasonably IMHO, that the section states that if a portion of the establishment is devoted to the consumption of alcohol then ALL portions of the establishment are off limits to carry.

It is a very gray area.

Also remember that in many cases it is impossible to reach other areas without first passing through the "bar area," which would be in vilation of the law.

Another gray area.

In many opinions, it is best to stay far away from gray areas.

Well, OK. I can't imagine why it's necessary to infer anything when the statute clearly sets out what one can do and not do in this case. For me it's not a gray area at all--the law in this instance is black and white. Reading it will likely clear up any questions. I joined this thread in response to an obvious misstatement of Florida law by another poster. I've provided verbatim references to the applicable statutes, not opinions.

Do as you will.

 

[keith44spl]

Border Carry

After all...of course, there was that time I was walking down the frozen food aisle, and the gun (I used to carry a lot "mexican") slipped out of my waist band, down my leg and onto the floor. I reached to pick it up and kicked it farther down the aisle.

I recovered it and left the store. I didn't want to explain that to the young policeman who would respond to the call of the crazy man in the grocery store chasing a gun down the aisle.

I decided "mexican" carry might not be the best choice after that.
Bob

Man,
Ain't it the truth!
I used to 'south of the border' carry all the time, till my commander jumped out of 'gear' and slid a stalls or two over, had to hop up and retrieve it faster than a prairie jack rabbit could move.

Ain't life an adventure!

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Skeeziks]

Well, OK. I can't imagine why it's necessary to infer anything when the statute clearly sets out what one can do and not do in this case. For me it's not a gray area at all--the law in this instance is black and white. Reading it will likely clear up any questions. I joined this thread in response to an obvious misstatement of Florida law by another poster. I've provided verbatim references to the applicable statutes, not opinions.

Do as you will.

It may be black & white to you & me...but that's not what's important.
What's important is that it's black & white to the people who will be involved in deciding whether you get acquitted or whether you get convicted.

Just picture the scenario: You're sitting at a table (or in a booth, if you like) finishing up your meal when a LEO comes in and approaches the table and says "Put your hands on the table" and then procedes to arrest you. You say..."but officer, I wasn't in the bar area." He says it was reported that you were in the bar area.

I was told by a course instructor that the "Bar/Restaurant" type of establishment is a "gray area" and it's best to play it safe and not go in while carrying. It's too much hassle for me to have to go out to the car to stash my gun just to go to the restroom and then back out again to re-holster. Because, as was already pointed out by "Big Rich 315," you usually have to walk thru the bar to get to the restroom.

Remember, if it's a gray area to the arresting officer....nothing else matters.
But...this is America. Do as you will.

 

[writerinmo]

Here's a stumper for me here in Missouri. Law states that I am not allowed to CC in an establishment that derives 51% of it's business from the sale of alcohol... so should I call up the owner and ask him? From my experience, I would say it is a close call as they serve some excellent food and are always busy, but then so is the bar portion, which is not totally separated from the restaurant, you have to pass through the edge of the bar to get into the food area.

We always get a booth and I sit with my right side towards the wall, and always check when I get up to make sure nothing is showing. If there isn't a booth available, then we wait. The only exception is if I am carrying in a shoulder holster during cooler weather, then I simply leave my jacket on.

If someone confronted me about why I was carrying a firearm, I would simply ask "Why aren't you? Don't you read the paper?"

I OC when I am at home and working out in the shop. One of my 17 year old stepson's friends noticed the SW40VE on my hip and asked "Are you a cop?" I smiled at him and said "No, just an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment." He laughed and said that was cool.

 

[watchmanjimg]

It may be black & white to you & me...but that's not what's important.
What's important is that it's black & white to the people who will be involved in deciding whether you get acquitted or whether you get convicted.

Just picture the scenario: You're sitting at a table (or in a booth, if you like) finishing up your meal when a LEO comes in and approaches the table and says "Put your hands on the table" and then procedes to arrest you. You say..."but officer, I wasn't in the bar area." He says it was reported that you were in the bar area.

I was told by a course instructor that the "Bar/Restaurant" type of establishment is a "gray area" and it's best to play it safe and not go in while carrying. It's too much hassle for me to have to go out to the car to stash my gun just to go to the restroom and then back out again to re-holster. Because, as was already pointed out by "Big Rich 315," you usually have to walk thru the bar to get to the restroom.

Remember, if it's a gray area to the arresting officer....nothing else matters.
But...this is America. Do as you will.

I hear you, Skeeziks, and I appreciate your not taking this the wrong way. As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't trying to start a flame-a-thon or anything like that. The course instructor probably gave you the "gray area" spiel because he knew he wasn't qualified to get into specifics about the law, which in his shoes was the responsible thing to do. When in doubt, it's not a bad idea to refrain from conduct that might be questionable. However, I'm not a course instructor or a LEO. I'm a full-time practicing attorney who does this sort of thing for a living, so I'm not just shooting from the hip here (pun intended). I personally do not feel uncomfortable carrying in a restaurant that serves alcohol, although I do leave my firearm in the car if I'm going to sit at the bar because that's what I believe the law says I must do. I have plenty of friends who are LEOs and prosecutors and we laugh our butts off talking about stuff like this, but then again we deal with it all the time so there's no mystery. I realize that it's different for those who don't spend a lot of time in courtrooms.

In the end it comes down to what you're comfortable with, but it never hurts to read the statute and find out what the law actually says.

 

[BigRich315]

Here's a stumper for me here in Missouri. Law states that I am not allowed to CC in an establishment that derives 51% of it's business from the sale of alcohol... so should I call up the owner and ask him? From my experience, I would say it is a close call as they serve some excellent food and are always busy, but then so is the bar portion, which is not totally separated from the restaurant, you have to pass through the edge of the bar to get into the food area.

We always get a booth and I sit with my right side towards the wall, and always check when I get up to make sure nothing is showing. If there isn't a booth available, then we wait. The only exception is if I am carrying in a shoulder holster during cooler weather, then I simply leave my jacket on.

If someone confronted me about why I was carrying a firearm, I would simply ask "Why aren't you? Don't you read the paper?"

I OC when I am at home and working out in the shop. One of my 17 year old stepson's friends noticed the SW40VE on my hip and asked "Are you a cop?" I smiled at him and said "No, just an avid supporter of the 2nd Amendment." He laughed and said that was cool.

I've always hated when they make the sales distinction... How are we supposed to know exactly how their sales divide?! It seems that as long as it's like a Red Lobster, sports bar like BW3 (but not BW3 these days ), steakhouse, or some other type of respectable restaurant it's fine.

 

[Kanewpadle]

One never knows when things will escalate or what others will do. I was taught to get the element of suprize on the agressor and the person approaching is the agressor.

On a side note, I read this morning about a local man that shot another man because the man playfully swatted the shooter's grandmother with a flyswatter in the trobossas. The shooter is now in jail and the victim is in ICU. Never know when an armed person will snap and never know when a person is armed.

Yes, but there is a BIG difference between verbally agressive and physically agressive.

 

[Skeeziks]

I personally do not feel uncomfortable carrying in a restaurant that serves alcohol...

Neither do I. I do it all the time. I just don't go into those places that are a "Bar/Restaurant."
Because when someone feels that I should not be armed...that's when the place becomes just a "Bar."
Those places are too noisy for me anyway.

[/QUOTE] but it never hurts to read the statute and find out what the law actually says.[/QUOTE]

I have read it.
Well, it's starting to look like we agree a lot more than it first appeared. ~

Take care and God Bless.

 

[PDL]

I've always hated when they make the sales distinction... How are we supposed to know exactly how their sales divide?! It seems that as long as it's like a Red Lobster, sports bar like BW3 (but not BW3 these days ), steakhouse, or some other type of respectable restaurant it's fine.

If you get busted for carring there, I'd say it was time to offer $5k for the ice cream dish. After all every little bit help.

But seriously, it always depends on where you are, carrying in a bar is not gonna get you many friends in a lot of states. Being DUI with a firearm is just stupid. As always you need to be aware of your surroundings, and you need to know what the local rules are.

NY plates in AL gets you a speeding ticket in the parking lot, sometimes.

 

[bk43]

but it never hurts to read the statute and find out what the law actually says.

It always hurts to read the actual statute where Florida law is concerned. We have had some stunning threads here when folks from up north have read Florida CCW statutes because they were planning to visit Mickey. They become instant experts and always get it wrong. Makes for fun threads though.

On this issue, taking a Chili's or Friday's as an example is an easy way to understand this. You can walk in through the bar and you can travel to the restrooms through the bar. No problem. If you going to sit and have a bite to eat, get a table outside the bar section. If the whole establishment is like the bar area of Chili's don't carry. If it's like the dining area that just serves drinks to have with your food carry if you like. That's all you need to know and there's no need to make it any more complicated than that.

On topic, I still feel that an encounter with a stranger bent on being confrontational, while you are armed, is to be avoided. Keep the RKBA debate for another day. Thank them, tell them you're authorized and move on.

Bob

 

[ladder13]

I wouldn't escalate and I wouldn't lie, but I don't think I'd try to frame it like I was on a secret double-ought spy mission either.

Make sure when you are arguing with a fool that he is not doing the same thing.

Exactly, and watch your back as he moves away.

 

[ladder13]

NY plates in AL gets you a speeding ticket in the parking lot, sometimes.

Is that why Sip left Alabama?

 

[Big Foot]

I'd pull out my piece and say, "You want some of this......"
At least, I'd be thinking that.....

 

[andy*]

If my carry gun was spotted as in the first post, I would thank the person and cover my gun. If the "spotter" was upset or wanting argue I would tell him I am sorry he is upset, that I have a carry permit and try to go about my way.
If I am carrying, I would not have a beer/drink with my meal. We as gun owners are already "bad guys" to a lot of others. We need to to be twice as good and totally above board when out and about. The "anti's" would love to hear a story 'bout a fella who was carrying and had a beer/or in a bar and got into it with another customer. Andy

 

[watchmanjimg]

On this issue, taking a Chili's or Friday's as an example is an easy way to understand this. You can walk in through the bar and you can travel to the restrooms through the bar. No problem. If you going to sit and have a bite to eat, get a table outside the bar section. If the whole establishment is like the bar area of Chili's don't carry. If it's like the dining area that just serves drinks to have with your food carry if you like. That's all you need to know and there's no need to make it any more complicated than that.

This is an excellent, concise explanation of 790.06 (12) as it pertains to carrying in establishments licensed to serve alcoholic beverages.

It always hurts to read the actual statute where Florida law is concerned. We have had some stunning threads here when folks from up north have read Florida CCW statutes because they were planning to visit Mickey. They become instant experts and always get it wrong. Makes for fun threads though.

This first part threw me a little. How on earth would you propose that one learn the law other than reading it, at least as a starting point? I understand that "experts" from outside the state get it wrong now and again, but I'm sure you've run across plenty of Florida residents who lack a clear understanding as well. Again, I think your post is great and I have no issue with it. I'm just wondering what method you'd recommend for average people to familiarize themselves with Florida law if reading the actual statutes is so dangerous. From your explanation you obviously figured it out somehow.

 

[Skeeziks]

If I am carrying, I would not have a beer/drink with my meal. We as gun owners are already "bad guys" to a lot of others. We need to to be twice as good and totally above board when out and about. The "anti's" would love to hear a story 'bout a fella who was carrying and had a beer/or in a bar and got into it with another customer. Andy

Very well said, Andy.

Suppose I go into a cafe to eat - not in the bar area, but at a table - and I decide to have just 1 beer with my meal. Then, an armed robbery takes place and I end up having to discharge my weapon to save a life and the perp is dead. But when the smoke clears, an innocent is hit.
Now, you know the family of the innocent is going to be looking for justice and they won't be able to take it out on the perp...he's dead. So who does that leave? I'll be in court trying to defend myself against a prosecutor who is trying to convince a jury that I'm liable 'cause I had been drinking at the time and that is why this whole thing occurred in the first place.
And it might not just be the innocent's family that has me in the courtroom...it could also be the family of the SCUM that robbed the place!

No thanks.... When I'm carrying, it's water or ice tea for me.

 

[ladder13]

Many years ago, this was the talk of the neighborhood, and confirmed to me by a friend who frequented the establishment. 2, shall we say "homies" ,walked into a "cop bar" that was up the street from me and well-known as a local leo hangout. These "utes" , obvously not from this neighborhood, while one is holding a shotgun and the other a baseball bat, announce "this is a robbery put your money on the bar". There were some 20 patrons in the bar at this time, probably 15 being leo's who lived in the vicinity. No sooner did the would be robbers get the last sentence out, there were from what went around, some 20 or so guns pointed at them. One of the thieves managed to make it outside and fled on foot, the other one was made into a punching bag, so the story went. Luckily, for at least one person involved, no shots were fired.
I lived a couple blocks from the FOUR-FIVE, there were a half dozen bars that cops frequented in the area.

 

[straightshooter1]

Skeeziks, in Florida you don't have a lot to worry about from the family of the perpetrator, but I am a bit troubled by the rest of your post. While you could be sued, absent a finding of what the courts are calling "immunity," (see the statutes' language (776.013/.031/.032. which the latest cases now are saying can be found to apply by the police, the prosecutor or the court), such a suit should not last beyond a Motion for Summary Judgment. In a criminal case we would file an "Immunity Motion" for a hearing to determine if you met the statutory requirements for immunity from prosecution. I see no reason, but have not seen a civil case where it has happened, that the same motion would not be filed in a civil case where the bad guy, committing a robbery, for example, was shot by you.

But, you say you discharged your weapon to save a life, but, apparently you also shot and killed or injured an "innocent." That, it seems, would be a serious problem for you, whether you have had one beer or not.

The statutes seem directed towards protection for the shooter when it's the bad guy who is shot, not protection where someone else is shot.

Bob

 

[watchmanjimg]

Skeeziks, in Florida you don't have a lot to worry about from the family of the perpetrator, but I am a bit troubled by the rest of your post. While you could be sued, absent a finding of what the courts are calling "immunity," (see the statutes' language (776.013/.031/.032. which the latest cases now are saying can be found to apply by the police, the prosecutor or the court), such a suit should not last beyond a Motion for Summary Judgment. In a criminal case we would file an "Immunity Motion" for a hearing to determine if you met the statutory requirements for immunity from prosecution. I see no reason, but have not seen a civil case where it has happened, that the same motion would not be filed in a civil case where the bad guy, committing a robbery, for example, was shot by you.

But, you say you discharged your weapon to save a life, but, apparently you also shot and killed or injured an "innocent." That, it seems, would be a serious problem for you, whether you have had one beer or not.

The statutes seem directed towards protection for the shooter when it's the bad guy who is shot, not protection where someone else is shot.

Bob

Bob:

I was starting to respond to this but you beat me to the draw.

As you point out, our Legislature has considered this issue and for the most part the armed law-abiding citizen has little to fear. I'm not sure who is supposed to have shot the civilian in Skeeziks' scenario, but assuming it was Skeeziks then the felony-murder doctrine as set forth in 782.04 should at least address his criminal liability or lack thereof. Chapter 790.151 governs the use of a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, and I doubt "just 1 beer" would impair Skeeziks' ability. In any case 790.151(5) does not apply to lawful self-defense or defense of one's property, so we can add this to the growing list of (more or less) favorable statutes relating to this issue.

I'm all for the peace of mind that comes from familiarizing oneself with the law in the first place so one has a clearer impression of what they can do and not do.