38spl Ammo...Why So Much Junk?

[CALREB]

The big problem with finding any of that FBI type ammo is no major,and few minor agencies /military/ or anybody uses it, or much of it. They could sell some to the civilian market,and LE for back-up or off duty guns, but its all ammo for semi auto now,with a very small amount of revolver practice and service ammo used. Its like the other members said marketing whats in demand,most ammo companies are fat nowdays with military contracts and the ammo scare from the last couple years.The fact that people were paying about any price didnt help us either.Now most people wont spend 25-30 or more for any box of handgun ammo so they buy the cheapest stuff, so the ammo manufacturers make 20 different HP rounds and bonded not bonded etc. No one wants to hear about bullet placement.Heck I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible.Handloading is definitely cheaper and you can custom make for what you want so its a great idea if you have the capabilities and time. Here in CA who knows whats going to occur in the near future probably DNA test and $20.00 a round + 32 % state tax. I wish I was joking, Bob

 

[bmcgilvray]

"...I want to buy a cellphone that just makes and takes calls but that nearly impossible."

What a novel idea! A simple cell phone that doesn't complete nuclear fission while giving out the Billboard Top Ten tunes for the week.

Naah... it is probably beyond the capabilities of modern man to design something so simple and useful that doesn't do all our "thinking" for us.

 

[photoman]

Bullet technology has come a long way since the days of the old LHP+P. Marketing or not, the new bullets are performing much better. The Barnes X bullet is a perfect example. Expansion after barrier penetration is almost as good as expansion with no barrier penetration. That doesn't happen with the LHP.

The LHP+P load is a fine load and I wouldn't feel unarmed if I had to use it, but it's not accurate to say it's just as good as the new bonded or solid copper bullets.

Reloads for self defense? You're the one that will have to deal with the legal system. Use what you think will give you the best advantage in the court room.

 

[WR Moore]

Besides being one of the old, covered with cobwebs standards, the ol' 158 RNL is a load that gets sold on price point. Granted, a LSWC probably would be the same price, but there's tradition. Not to mention that ol' load has killed a slew of folks over the years.

 

[Splittinghairs]

38 Spl. 135 Grain GDHP @ 1000 FPS

They can produce for a better price! I reload the subject round at $10.50/50 MSRP, what do you think they can produce it for?

Quit buying it at the high cost and it will come down.

 

[captainjohnsofd]

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

 

[jmoln]

Is this what you are looking for? Available as factory new and as reloads from Georgia Arms. I practice and carry this in my 2.5" while the 135gr Speer goes in my J frame.

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point +P 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter "NEW" 50pk
Your Price: $14.50

.38 Special 158gr Lead Semi-Wadcutter 50pk
Your Price: $11.50

 

[BreakerDan]

I am tired of junk ammo in general.
I wish the big three would make not only
reasonable FBI 38s and JHP ammo,
but I would also like to see more of
the "premium" ball ammo like they used
to make. I prefer ball in my 1911 and
therefore really dont like to carry the
cheap junk ammo that is made right now.
Good ball would have a nickel case with
a crimp behind the bullet to prevent setback like
it used to have.

A good NICKEL cased 38 Special +P with a
158gr semi wad non HP would not be too much to
ask either. They are great field loads. I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose.
Seems like the nickel cases in general are becoming a thing
of the past.

 

[bmcgilvray]

"I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose."

I've wondered if the lead round nose 158 grain load was really as bad as some suggest.

I went through a phase for a couple of years of shooting 158 grain round nose bullets at a velocity of 860 fps. I had a cheap source for the bullets and used them extensively. In field use, all sorts of critters large and small fell to these bullets. Amazingly enough they went down for the count each and every time with good hits. Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

Of course I never had to employ the use of round nose lead to stop a human assailant so can't say for certain.

 

[tpd223]

Keep in mind the genuisses in Trenton have banned hollow/soft point ammo for civilian use since 1990. There is no other choice in NJ, including retired LEO's who carry. Criminals care not one whit about the ban. Guess what I am going to do when I retire next year.

I was traveling to NJ back in March, so I talked to the NJSP Firearms unit about the legalities since I knew as an out of state LEO I still had to abide by the ammo laws there.

Federal EFMJ, Cor Bon PowerBall, and Hornady Critical defense are all legal expanding rounds for use there, since they are not hollow points.

I felt well armed with a my Glock 19 (couldn't take my 17 since the mags are over 15 round capacity) loaded with 124gr +P EFMJ and my S&W 638 loaded with Buffalo Bore wadcutters.


Personally I wouldn't hunt with RNL or RNFMJ either, as I have seen solidly hit rabbits go quite a ways after being hit with these bullets in both .32 and .38 calibers. Wadcutters and SWCs flattened them with much more authority and no more loss of meat.

I know first hand of several officer involved shootings that went poorly due to the old RNL loadings not getting the job done on bad guys that were very well hit.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Texas has wimpy rabbits. They eat good though.

 

[amd6547]

JMOLN mentioned Georgia Arms...Are any of those loads available? Their home page states that 38spl is one of the rounds they are having a hard time getting components for.

 

[jmoln]

I just went to their website to pull that info. They are local to me so I just drive out to get what I need. They don't always have everything in stock every day due to their show schedule so I usually give them a call first. But if they are out for any length of time they will say so on the website.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

I personally wouldn't want to use any kind of HP in a .38, I load a 158gr. hard cast LSWC over 6.2gr of AA #5 it's very accurate, controllable, and I feel that it will provide enough penetration to get the job done.

 

[cp1969]

Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

I'm going to bet that was the same Bob Milek who, in one of his anti-cast bullet babblings, wrote that he once bounced six lead wadcutters off a bear's skull.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I'm going to bet that was the same Bob Milek who, in one of his anti-cast bullet babblings, wrote that he once bounced six lead wadcutters off a bear's skull.

You are perceptive and have good powers of recall.

 

[Krull]

I look at it this way:I'll use whatever I can find as long as it says "JHP" on the side,my 642 is currently loaded with some aluminum Blazer 125gr +P JHP and I feel fine about it,my 4506 has some 230gr Winchester white box "Self Defense" loads in JHP flavor.

All I know is a lot of these bargain JHP's are actually old tech stuff from the last twenty years,yes they are outdated but I suspect they can still kill you quite dead.

 

[Rob1109]

Nope. It isn't.

The +P 158 grain SWC is a viable and very effective alternative to the boutique "ammunition du jour" which is nothing more than faddish marketing. Self defense isn't about being trendy. At least it isn't in the minds of thoughtful handgunners. The ammunition companies may make what sells but they also do an excellent job of advertising, influencing the minds of their market. Just because it sells doesn't mean that it is necessarily best or that its buyers are all that knowledgeable.

Many years of field use of +P 158 grain .38 Special ammunition or its handloaded equivalent has convinced me that the "FBI load" is about as good as it gets in .38 Special guns of all barrel lengths. Lightweight bullets may be reserved for lesser cartridges like .380. At velocities attainable in 38 Special handguns, fast light JHPs are overrated.

+1. The lightest I carry is Speer GD Short Barrel. But, mostly 158Gr SWCHP +P or Std. Bullets are like...well, you know, bigger IS better!

 

[336A]

"I also still
buy a good bit of the old Remington Express
38 158gr LRN police load. Having used that
load hunting and trapping hogs (penetration),
it is not that bad for that purpose."

I've wondered if the lead round nose 158 grain load was really as bad as some suggest.

I went through a phase for a couple of years of shooting 158 grain round nose bullets at a velocity of 860 fps. I had a cheap source for the bullets and used them extensively. In field use, all sorts of critters large and small fell to these bullets. Amazingly enough they went down for the count each and every time with good hits. Along about this same time (early 1980s) a very popular gun writer said in print that the load couldn't be depended on to stop a cottontail rabbit which "might run off and die." They must have had tougher cottontails in Wyoming where he lived than here in Texas. It was so much malarkey.

Of course I never had to employ the use of round nose lead to stop a human assailant so can't say for certain.

bmcgilvray you definetly have my undivided attentetion at this point. Could you articulate for us on the terminal performance as well as details about shot placement, and range if the hogs were not trapped.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Hi 336A;

I haven't shot hogs with the 158 grain lead round nose load but only quoted another member's post. It apparently has been deleted because, in going back through the thread, I can't find the post from which I copied. There's no reason to think that a trapped hog, well hit at point blank range with an adequately penetrating 158 grain lead round nose .38 Special bullet, wouldn't expire immediately.

Now, hunting hogs with the .38 Special, or most any other handgun, is another matter. I hit a large one (field dressed 304 lbs.) hard through the heart/lung area at short yardage with a hot-loaded 150 grain bullet from a .30-06 once and he stayed on his feet for several minutes, first running 50 yards into a thicket, then another 100 yards or so into a creek. Whitetail deer, by comparison, have always collapsed for me when struck in such a manner by that .30-06 load at ranges less than 150 yards.

I have shot the usual run of Texas critters with the 158 grain round nose lead bullet in the .38 Special, up to and including largish feral dogs and they tended to understand that they'd been shot, they remained shot, they didn't continue on with much enthusiasm after being shot, and they gave up the ghost after being shot. After perhaps a couple of years of using 158 grain lead round nose bullets for my handloads I lost the inexpensive source so went back to lead SWCs. I didn't notice a marked difference in killing power between the two styles of bullets (there was a lot less difference than I would like to think there was) and a bunch of critters were hammered by the .38 Special during those years of tromping in the hinterlands. I still like the notion of the sharp-shouldered semi-wadcutter design best but the round nosed bullet does the business WITH GOOD HITS. No design really works well with bad hits.

I never had to stop drug-crazed criminals with either round nose or SWC bullets in the .38 Special and, with any luck, won't be called on to do so.

Conventional wisdom has condemned the 158 grain round nose lead bullet which may not be the "best in the west" but it also may have taken a lot of the blame over the years for a poor performance when poor shooting was the real culprit.