Tragedy in Arizona.....

[justsumstuff]

First: I have not seen any pictures or footage of this event. Someone mentioned that it would be the perfect time for a CCW to pull a gun & shoot. I was envisioning the scene, a crowd of people standing around, one person shooting, from the front, from the center? perhaps lost in the crowd for several shots = people wounded & shot. Perhaps the act of tackling him was the right thing to do, instead of engaging in a shootout around a crowd of people. (Think Ronald Regan shooting, all on camera, crowds around, etc) How many CCW attending the Congress woman's event that chose not to pull and shoot because of their fear of even more innocents getting hurt (look beyond your target). If there were CCW in the crowd that took this action, I'm sure that the media will never report it, but I'd really like to know.
Just wondering out loud.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

It is very tragic but as was said earlier, we are in for some backlash. Every new article I read was sure to include the 2 30 round mags and 2 15 round mags. It is peculiar that she had no protection detail around her, dont you think?? I mean hell he basically walked right up to her.

Deep sigh... I think you're right. Gun control advocates have been trying to make an issue about AZ unlicensed carry, and have specifically pointed to high cap firearms at political events during this past election. It is going to be a tough 'I told you so' argument for gun rights advocates to deal with. In addition, where were any others with a gun? Gun rights advocates quite often rely on the argument that if guns were legal to carry then slaughters like this might not be so great because people could fight back. Well.... I duknow... but this tragedy could have loud legislative reverberations.

Prayers for the victims and their families.

 

[The Big D]

just sumstuff and Chattanooga Phil: I surely hope there wasn't an armed citizen(s) in the crowd who did NOTHING whilst watching people being murdered and shot. That would set the cause back.

Be safe.

CCW ca

First: I have not seen any pictures or footage of this event. Someone mentioned that it would be the perfect time for a CCW to pull a gun & shoot. I was envisioning the scene, a crowd of people standing around, one person shooting, from the front, from the center? perhaps lost in the crowd for several shots = people wounded & shot. Perhaps the act of tackling him was the right thing to do, instead of engaging in a shootout around a crowd of people. (Think Ronald Regan shooting, all on camera, crowds around, etc) How many CCW attending the Congress woman's event that chose not to pull and shoot because of their fear of even more innocents getting hurt (look beyond your target). If there were CCW in the crowd that took this action, I'm sure that the media will never report it, but I'd really like to know.
Just wondering out loud.

 

[ladder13]

On the news, ch4 specifically, there was an "eyewitness" to the event who also claimed to be a "gunowner". No followup Q was asked of him. Was he actually on the scene, was he actually carrying? Neither was specifically determined.
I agree, if there was a ccw holder, the anti's will have a field day.
My prayers continue to the people adversely affected by this incident.

 

[justsumstuff]

[/QUOTE] The Big D;135769825]justsumstuff and Chattanooga Phil: I surely hope there wasn't an armed citizen(s) in the crowd who did NOTHING whilst watching people being murdered and shot. That would set the cause back.Be safe. CCW ca[/QUOTE]

IMHO, I'm just trying to envision the scene, people ducking, trying to figure out where & what's happening, with chaos in charge.
I like to think, & I hope, that CCW people use their brains first, guns second. And, if they did nothing, it was the right thing, but hindsight is 20-20.
Did they have any security detail for this? What did they do?
Has anyone got a link to a good news report? Thanks.

 

[justsumstuff]

If the Congresswoman was the intended target this could easily be described as a "Mexican" style political hit. She is a conservative Democrat who has spoken in favor of stiffening up border security and the shooting took place at a time that would be ideally suited distract from the new Republicans in Congress making waves.

The hit man is a 22 year old kid whose mental condition makes it questionable that he held down a job for any length of time, yet he has around $600 worth of firearm and accessory magazine. There is an accomplice who witnesses say took off, but no one saw the accomplice shoot. Sounds like the accomplice was there to make sure the shooter went through with the hit.

Just saying, I find the choice of victim as well as the timing and other factors interesting. The National Press blaming Palin and Beck almost before the smoke cleared, a relatively conservative Congress woman as the apparent victim, the shooters own Leftist blog site, the shooting taking place in a increasingly anti-illegal immigrant border State. To name a few.

Thank you for your insight. It is tragic, but we Americans, must remain calm, rational & clear thinking. A different kind of "under fire"?
Thanks again.

 

[scha]

According to the news report I saw on TV last night there was a young man who was in the grocery store when he heard the shots. He said he knew it was gunshots because he was very familiar with guns. He said he was a gun owner and was carrying a weapon and he ran out to see what was going on. When he got closer, the shooter was already on the ground. Others had knocked the shooter down when the shooter was trying to reload. He said he ran up and helped hold the shooter on the ground until the authorities arrived. He also said the shooter had other magazines and would have likely continued to shoot if he hadn't been stopped by people in the crowd. He sounded responsible and in my opinion he acted appropriately for the situation.

Steve

 

[The Big D]

Seems that young man acted absolutely as he should have. Just wish he would have arrived a bit sooner; suspect he would have acted appropriately then, too.

Be safe.

According to the news report I saw on TV last night there was a young man who was in the grocery store when he heard the shots. He said he knew it was gunshots because he was very familiar with guns. He said he was a gun owner and was carrying a weapon and he ran out to see what was going on. When he got closer, the shooter was already on the ground. Others had knocked the shooter down when the shooter was trying to reload. He said he ran up and helped hold the shooter on the ground until the authorities arrived. He also said the shooter had other magazines and would have likely continued to shoot if he hadn't been stopped by people in the crowd. He sounded responsible and in my opinion he acted appropriately for the situation.

Steve

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Reporting that an unarmed female was first to engage the shooter and then two unarmed men.

 

[ladder13]

According to the news report I saw on TV last night there was a young man who was in the grocery store when he heard the shots. He said he knew it was gunshots because he was very familiar with guns. He said he was a gun owner and was carrying a weapon and he ran out to see what was going on. When he got closer, the shooter was already on the ground. Others had knocked the shooter down when the shooter was trying to reload. He said he ran up and helped hold the shooter on the ground until the authorities arrived. He also said the shooter had other magazines and would have likely continued to shoot if he hadn't been stopped by people in the crowd. He sounded responsible and in my opinion he acted appropriately for the situation.

Steve

That was probably the guy I referred to. He wasn't actually in a position to change the situation on the ground as it transpired. He arrived sort of after the fact.

 

[stantheman86]

This McCarthy lady is already introducing some bill tomorrow with the intent to limit magazine capacities and "keep people from buying stockpiles of ammo"........and some other Representative wants to re-introduce the Assault Weapons ban, he says "if the ban on hi-cap mags would have been renewed the mags he used in the shooting would have been illegal".......

I hope the NRA and other groups are ready for the fight of our lives here, this might be the "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak, with the Ft. Hood incident, a school shooting recently, and now this......it's beginning to look a lot like semi-auto handguns and "assault rifles" may be something that are high on the list to "ban" in this country......

There was a big shooting in England decades ago, and look what happened to the gun laws over there.......we're gonna be reduced to smoothbore shotguns and no more than 20 rounds of ammo "for hunting" if we don't stand up for our rights NOW! The anti-gun politicos are drawing up gun ban bills as we sit here, right now.

 

[Martya]

You know the anti's are going to be heard from. I hope reason and sanity prevail against what is sure to be some proposed anti-gun legislation, but we are talking about politicians, they will want to be seen as 'doing something' and I bet attempts will be made to curtail more rights for law-abiding citizens.

Does anyone think that if 6 months ago hi-cap mags and automatic weapons had been banned in Arizona,this tragedy would not have happened? I am not a nutjob, but I think a nutjob with some nefarious intent is not going to stop and consider the laws, no matter how restrictive they might be, before getting whatever he or she needs to accomplish whatever terrible thing they think is important.

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

 

[Simmer down]

As a liberal gun owner I don't see the need to increase restrictions to "undo" a tragedy. We have laws against murder so more limits isn't what we need.

As for public outcry, I do my best to model responsible gunowership. No talk of drilling someone. No bumperstickers implying I will kill, kill, kill. I don't talk about my CCW unless its appropriate.

Folks that lean way over into the heavy restriction area are really sensitive so I don't try to upset someone who's going to get ther panties in a bunch. I'm not challengng anyone.

Many of my friends are left leaning so I edit myself not so freak out the ultra-sensitive and so I can go on about my business as I see fit. I shoot with the ones who are not extreme and this lets them experience shooting as another hobby.

I like to wear my Armed Liberal hat to the range. It's a reality check for both extremes

 

[Outrider]

This shooting could have been prevented if the Congresswoman had merely held this event in the local courthouse -- where participants had to pass through metal detectors.

Ironic that our biggest "shootout"/fight to preserve the 2nd Amendment as law-abiding gun-owners probably took place just a few miles from the OK Corral -- a reference the Congresswoman made herself previously.

 

[JayDubya]

Yaktamer asked me: "So you'd be good with a ban on anything other than single shots?"

It won't come to that, but I have put a lot of duck on the table with a single shot shotgun as a teenager, and for most of my life used a double barrel shotgun for bird hunting, and very seldom fired the second barrel at the same bird. I once shot a rabbit in full gallop across in front of me about fifty yards out, in the head, with a single shot .22 rifle. I have never hunted deer, but if I had I would have used one of the five-shot bolt action rifles I have owned. As you may gather, I do not want a gun that has a 30+ round magazine, because I don't think I need it.

Jack

 

[stantheman86]

My AR15 would look pretty funny with a 5-round magazine......

If a 30 round magazine was good enough for me in the Army, then it's good enough for me now

 

[oldman45]

Yaktamer asked me: "So you'd be good with a ban on anything other than single shots?"

It won't come to that, Jack

I would like to think you are right but I am not willing to chance it.

An old expression is give a person a foot and they will take a mile. Government is like that. Open a door for them to do anything and they go overboard.

Get a 10 round limit and in a couple years, it becomes 8 round limit, in 12 yrs it becomes a six round limit and then it drops to banning guns outright.

I have ZERO use for extended mags but I own some for a few rifles but I do not want them banned.

 

[ladder13]

20 rounders for AR's are my max, the 30's stick out way too far for bench work. Extended mags in handguns are butt ugly, and for me, serve no purpose. Did I shoot 23 rounds or 18?
However, whatever floats your boat, makes the world go 'round.

 

[stantheman86]

The whole point is that any ban on extended mags is useless....people will commit atrocities with 1 round if they have to, or a knife, bomb, baseball bat it doesn't matter...some "apples to oranges" comparisons.....

John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln with a single shot Derringer..

McKinley was shot with a .32 pocket revolver

WWI was started by one man with a .380 pocket pistol with a mag that held maybe 6 or 7 rounds. He didn't need a "hi cap" pistol to touch off the most brutal war in our history as human beings.

JFK was "allegedly" shot by one man with a bolt action Carcano that held no more than 6 rounds in an en-bloc clip.

My point is, if someone wants to have a 200 round drum for their AR-15, a belt-fed 1919 MG, a mag for their Glock that touches the ground and holds 3 boxes of 9mm, then we have that right. Banning these will not stop anyone from commiting a crime. It's akin to saying "let's ban any car from having more than 100 horsepower so that drunk drivers can't do as much damage"......it doesn't make a difference, people will drive drunk and kill people on mopeds if that's all they have. You can't fix stupid and you can't beat crazy.

If we "give in" a little and let them take mags over 15 rounds, then yes, the above poster was right, it will become 10, and then 5, then "no one needs more than 3 for sporting use" and next we know we'll be plugging 5 chambers in our revolvers to make them single shot "target guns" and our semi auto pistols will have to be manually cocked and loaded like those assinine "CA legal" bolt action AR15's that load from the top and need to be hand cycled......hand cycled 1911A1 with a 2 round mag anyone? Not to mention ammo will be $30 a round because it will have a micro-bar code on each shell casing and bullet so they know who fired it.

 

[JayDubya]

"If a 30 round magazine was good enough for me in the Army, then it's good enough for me now"

StanTheMan -- You've also said other things that indicate to me that we are not all that far apart. I note that, in addition to serving in the Army, you are/have been a law officer. I think you would agree that there are times when one thirty round magazine is not "good enough". For the same reason, when I was flying over Vietnam, I wanted as many 13 round magazines for my Browning Hi Power as I could carry.

War, and self defense at a grocery store, create different needs. Agree?

Cordially, Jack