Would you????

Sounds to me like 7shooter is from a liberal state?. In Arizona you have no duty to retreat. Taking the situation as defined in the posts one has a DUTY to protect one's family if RETREAT is not an option. In Arizona this would be a dead BG if this happened to me.
oldman45 please keep us updated on the investigation and results.

Bill

I live in MN where there is a duty to retreat. I also have a FL permit where my understanding is that there is no duty to retreat if an innocent person is somehere where he has a right to be and is basically behaving himself. I would still retreat in FL if I could safely do so because of the unpredictable nature of prosecutorial discretion and because I know the personal costs using deadly force can have on a person. Like my friend that I help teach a carry permit class with ( Viet Nam Special forces vet and retired big city SWAT firearms instructor ) says " You shoot somebody and there is a lot of paperwork ".
 
Now the things that pop out here is two injured people from the hands of a guy in a company truck, on company time, with company insurance ;)
You've got the holy grail of personal injury practice, liability, injury and most importantly a pocket :D

PS I like both of 7shooter's posts-very good analysis of the problems that arise with this sort of thing.
The MOST IMPORTANT THING one can do in a situation like this is keep your wits about you.

Wrong. Liability does not cover an intentional act. Vicarious liability does not impune coverage to the employer unless there was prior knowledge of the guy's short temper. The uninsured motorist coverage on the victims car will not cover anything since it was an intentional act and there was coverage on the perp's company vehicle.

If you have knowledge of a way to get coverage for these two newly crippled people, I would appreciate knowing it so I can pass it on to them. Right now, the both are facing surgery.
 
You can see here how local media and local policies effect responses from around the country. Last week a guy shot himself in the butt when he stuck his Kimber in his belt. (lucky it was small of back carry) The bullet went thru the butt and lodged in his right calf. Police showed up at hospital in response to shooting report. They inspected gun and gave it back to him. He's home the same night with a sore butt. 3 miles west of here in Illinois he'd be on death row. I'll delete this if it's off topic.
 
Okay, I'll bite. Who is the second injured party, how was he/she "crippled," and how is he/she connected to the original incident?

Also, how convenient it was for the agrieved party originally "attacked" to happen to have his tire iron handy. :rolleyes:

Suspect there is a whole lot more to this incident...

Be safe.

Note:

If I missed something, please point it out. Thank you.
 
I would retreat if possible, but not to the point of further endangerment of me and my family. By that I mean that I wouldn't let myself get caught trying to maneuver through a tight space and allow the miscreant to approach the vehicle. If retreat was impossible, or at least problematic, I absolutely would not stay in the car. Seated in a car, looking up out your window, isn't a very viable defensive position. I would be out of the car, using it to maintain separation between myself and the BG. If he continued approaching despite my weapon and my warnings, I would shoot. Georgia is pretty good about letting one defend himself and his family when threatened like this. Some jurisdictions, of course, are better than others.
 
A very similar incident happened in N Atlanta several years ago. A road rager decided to up the ante and blocked a vehicle in heavy traffic. Rager approached the blocked vehicle with a hammer and proceeded to try to smash the windshield of the blocked vehicle.

2 9mm rounds from inside the blocked vehicle (through the windshield) ended the attack and the rager was DRT.

After investigation, no charges were filed against the shooter.
 
Also, how convenient it was for the agrieved party originally "attacked" to happen to have his tire iron handy. :rolleyes:

My thought there, like the OPoster, is why did he just have a tire iron? In Georgia, at least outside Atlanta, I would suspect that at least 50% of the vehicles you meet have a handgun "handy," so to speak. Here, you could almost count on facing a firearm if you pulled a stunt like that.

You can bet that if I lived in a more "progressive" state that wouldn't allow me to have a firearm, I would have a tire iron, or probably a heavy oak walking cane close at hand.



Here in Georgia, you don't need a GFL to carry a handgun, concealed or in the open, in your vehicle. My daughter regularly carried one in her car even before she got her Georgia Firearms License.

I am convinced that the knowledge that one will probably find himself facing a legally armed citizen if he crosses a certain line of conduct is a major reason that rural crime, and particularly the kind of thing described here, is as unusual as it is where I live.

edit: after reading m1gunner's post, apparently things are the same in Hotlanta. I try to stay away from there as much as possible, but this old country boy is carrying when he whizzes through.;)
 
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I havent read all the replys but it reminded me of my folks 30 years ago. They had came from wisconsin to california to visit us. One night I was at work or something and they went to my churchs prayer meeting. Sounds like dad screwed up in traffic although neither dad or mom knew how. Dad was about 70 + years old driveing a pickup and cab over camper. It was a hot night and all had their windows open. This guy pulled alongside dad swearing at him, got ahead of him in traffic. They came to a stop light, the guy gets out and walks back to dad all the time swearing at dad. Mistake. Dad probley looked like a old harmless rube driveing. Dad was 6ft 5"s and tough. Dad didnt even bother to tell me the story the next day. Mom did. She said dad got out grabbed the guy by the shirt front and picked him straight up off the road with his left. He cocked his ham fist back and just said, "Mister, one more word from you and I will break your nose and released him. The guy ran back to his car.
Dad was a very quite man. He never pushed his weight around or tried to intiminate anyone. Never got rough with me, but to my knowledge never backed down either. Dad would be close to a 100 now, died just under 90.
Picture21.jpg
 
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retreat because I know the personal costs using deadly force can have on a person.

That is why I would retreat as far as possible without putting my family in danger. In this case, though, there really doesn't seem to be any retreat. Sometimes passengers in the car could get out and run, but if they are young, old, or disabled, that might not be possible.
 
"he likely will be terminated"

.....that he wasn't already while conducting his assault, raises considerable question, doesn't it?
 
I'd have to try to leave the area by using my vehicle as a weapon - over, around or through.
 
Okay, I'll bite. Who is the second injured party, how was he/she "crippled," and how is he/she connected to the original incident?

Also, how convenient it was for the agrieved party originally "attacked" to happen to have his tire iron handy. :rolleyes:

Suspect there is a whole lot more to this incident...

Be safe.

Note:

If I missed something, please point it out. Thank you.

Nope, nothing more. Total strangers. Perp had lead time on victims due to forcing them off the road. Other motorists had previously called in on the guy for reckless drving.

Second victim was BIL of primary victim. Both got out of vehicle when perp was blocking road and standing in road with a tire iron. Actually both victims are big guys (6ft, 200+ lbs). Perp took his truck and either backed over them or otherwise struck them with the front end. The driver was more in the path and got a full blow while his BIL was struck in the leg by the edge of the bumper. One has shattered knee cap, fracture in lower leg and swelling to arms. other has fracture to ankle and lower leg.
 
We have no obligation to retreat here in TN either.

First the idiot runs you off the road - Using a deadly instrument, btw.
Then attacks you with a tire iron - Yet another deadly instrument, btw.

The moral of the story should have been:
NEVER bring a tire iron to a gun fight.

OTOH - The BG got arrested and will now get the help he needs.
Hopefully he'll be released soon and become a pillar of his community and all around good guy. :cool:

Right :rolleyes:
 
I'd have to try to leave the area by using my vehicle as a weapon - over, around or through.

What is the difference between shooting someone or running over them? I suppose repairs to the car may be more expensive than a bullet. Then I can see his atty being rough on someone for hitting his client and it being called negligent injury so both your home owners and vehicle insurance pays limits. Then there is the chance a person can injure an innocent trying to get out of a bad situation with a large vehicle.

The way I see it, shooting them with a tire tool in their hand is better than running over them so they can have the tire iron knocked from their hand or toss it prior to being hit. I want them to fall with the tire iron in hand.
 
even if he werent blocked in, retreat only prolongs the problem since the meat head can just jump in his truck and resume chase.

How about 3 or 4 through the radiator of the company truck, THEN pile into the car for a retreat ... Let the joker burn up an engine and try to explain that to the boss :D
 
Okay, since I am now a old harmless grouch and probley will never meet anyone here I will tell one on myself that happened almost 40 years ago. I was in the wrong in a lot of this, done some stuff many of you wont aprove of, but will tell it like it happened.
I had a 1964 cadillac coup deville. I just liability on it as it was almost 10 years old and it wasnt my pricipal ride, but was a old jewel.
I had a GF that wanted to go near downtown los angeles. I had been working tons of OT so she was driveing. I really didnt know the downtown area well either.
A car pulled out of a bar`s parking lot and T-boned us in the passenger door where I was sitting. Two hispanics were in the car, and it was a almost new I think, hot ford tornedo. (sp?).
I yelled stop! She stopped but they scratched out. I said catch up with them, I want that plate number! (Insurance purpose`s)
Now that was like turning angie dickason loose in the police woman series! The rest of this story was right out of the script of two dozzen tv movies! They hit a on ramp to a freeway with her right on their tail. They took the next off ramp probley thinking she couldnt hang with them in our heavy cad but she did. Right at the bottom of that off ramp they turned into a parking building that had the arm down and it went flying. Yeah I know we all seen that 20 times! I seen the attendent diveing for cover as we both flew through! They made a wrong turn and she had them boxed up. I couldnt get my smashed door open, but they came back in reverse and smashed our front end. Diane was backing up and they hit us twice again as she was backing up! This thing was now definetly out of hand. All I had wanted was their license number. On top of that, had they just got out and we discuss this thing I probley would have never got the police involved and would have let their insurance handle it in a fashion their drinking wouldnt have been a factor. But now we were beyound all that.
Now that she had backed out they scratched out again. She again took after them despite me hollering for her to stop. At the next turn for the next level they spun out. Diane was really into it now! She said I am going to get those ---"gentilmen". I was bellering for her to stop as she broadsided them!
I yelled for her to get out as my door couldnt open. She got out. As I was slideing out on her side I spotted my s&w model 60 on the floor board that had flew out from where I had hid it under the drivers seat.
I snapped it up and went up to their vehicle. They had locked themselves in and didnt want to come out. In a fit of anger I stupidly hit the drivers window with my gun. Of course the window didnt break. But it locked my gun up. I didnt know it at the time, but a handloaded speer shotshell capsell that I always kept on top bounced forward into the barrel, tying the gun up!
The driver got out and said, Hey man! Why the gwan? Can not we settle this thing without gwans? The irony of that statement really got to me! I shifted the gun to my left and knocked him over the back of my car with my right. Actualy I think it knocked him out for a short time. The other guy now was out and telling me how they would kill me if I didnt have that gwan! Again that got to me and I did what potentialy was the stupidest thing I ever done in my life! "Here, diane, hang onto this, and handed her the gun! I went to work him over. His eyes got big, he kept backing up throwing kicks at me. I heard diane yell, stop!, or I will blow ya away! I looked and saw the driver I had knocked down had got up and stupidly was advanceing on her! She had the gun in both hands on him! Now I had taught this girl to shoot and knew she just might! I stepped back to her and took the gun. I told her to take the car and go hunt up some police. She did. While she was gone I spent what seemed like 20 minuets holding these guys and listening to their insults and death threats telling me how they were going to find me and kill me when this was all over. Also they openly were plotting their story with each other for when the cops showed up.
About then I seen two guys in plain cloths walking towards me like they were going to pass me at a angle. I asked them, you guys security? Yes, said one. (I worked security too, and somehow you just know.) I noticed one had a revolver stuck in his trousers. I said I have my hand on my gun in my pants pocket. I am going to pull it out and give it to you with my forefingers, okay? I then gave them the short version of what happened and said we should be hit with cops soon.
We sure did. This was near downtown LA and I think most of the shift showed up! It looked like a police funneral! The first two showed up. Thank God the first guy that showed probley was one of the biggest, coolist cop I ever met! He did put a shotgun on me and patted me down. They went over and hooked up the two guys but never did me. When things slightly setteled down I asked one of them why. He just said my demeaner. I knew that. The GF showed up in the back of one of the police cars. She told the cops that while she was chaseing them they threw stuff out of their car. Funney, I never seen that!
They took her and I to the downtown station for PW. At one point one of the cops had me pry open my own gun to get the ammo out!
Finaly they took her and me to see the watchmaster. She was a little scared but I had a good idea what was happening. He listened to what the cops said, leaned back and pointed at me and said take him ta jail and throw barney oldfield in with him! The cops just grinned, drove us to the smashed cad and gave me my gun and ammo back!
Lucky for me they had warrents out on the driver, I never did ask for what. Had those cops and politics be like they are today, I would be getting out just about now!
 
Oldman, was this around Shreveport? If I couldn't drive away, I'm getting out of the car. It would be very foolish to sit there and wait for him to walk up to your car and swing a tire iron at where you (or your family) are sitting. When I come out of the car, he's going to see my gun, and I am telling him that I am sorry that he's so POed, but that I have no reservations about putting an end to him, right now. If his belligerence continues, he threatens me, or makes a move toward my family, he dies. Period. Not wounded, not stopped. Dead. I don't intend to be a victim, and I will not be hunted. If I am charged, so be it. I am still healthy, and so is my family. I can live with that.
 
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While it is always regrettable to take a life, it was certainly justifiable in this case. I'm sure that the truck driver would not have been mourned for long, being the sort of person to pick a fight with a carload of senior citizens.
 
If what i have read about the incident is correct, then none of the victims were armed, so the original question still stands.
What would you do in this situation (if you were unarmed)?

Personally, i would avoid any confrontation at all costs, especially with my family present.
Otherwise, if this man had me cornered and i was unarmed, i would get him as far away from my family as quickly as possible.
But if all he had was a tire iron. I'd like to think that i'd be able to take him down and choke him out. He might get one shot, but i'd take my chances with that vs. him getting close to and harming anyone else.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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