Well Armed You Say?

Lost Lake,

There are no valid one shot stop stats. Simply do not exist. Too many variables in each shooting to quantify. Mainstream LE trainers dismissed them years ago for many good reasons. Bill

So what reasons would those be? Quite often nay sayers of the data simply jump on someone's else's band wagon.

Pity, because most of them have never even bothered to look at the stats themselves. So they really don't know what their talking about.

The "one shot stop" data wasn't meant as a tactical philosophy. It was meant as a unit of measurement.

The stats do exist.
 
On another forum a poll showed over half poled carried 9mm for self defense. So, in response to the .357 post which asked this question, I ask, "Do you feel well armed with a 9mm?" Recognizing that this is an arguable subject, I only ask to find out, not start a war. If a fight breaks out, I may buy a .357

Well I don't own a 9mm or a .357 but I do have .45's and a .44mag and I shoot both good enough to fell well armed
 
It really isn't what you carry. It also isn't your groupings when you target shoot. Shooting a pistol at a range is very different from an armed confrontation.

You should target practice for recreation, but keep in mind you can be a competition shooter and still lose in a gun battle. Most Cops in a shooting miss their target from 10 feet away.

You should learn to grip the gun so that the barrel is like your index finger, where you point the bullet lands. Do double taps in rapid succession, empty the gun on the target with out using your sights. Practice a double tap, stop for a few seconds keeping the target covered and repeat until the gun is empty.

Unfortunately I was in a shoot out 20 years ago. I bring this up to show my perpective only. It is nothing to be proud of. Unfortunately there was no way out of it, the perp fired the 1st shot. I had a 2 inch 38 revolver at the time. It was 1990, so I don't recall the ammo the job was using at the time. I seem to recall non plus P ammo, with some sort of plastic coating, to cut down lead levels at the range. That ammo was used because you had to carry what you qualified with.

The perp was hit 3 times out of three shots, I am only guessing, but I think the shots kept going higher and higher with recoil. He was hit in the hip (lodging on the spine) the shoulder and neck. I was shooting one handed with my shield in left hand, gun in the right hand.

During the incident I don't recall the shots ever going off, his or mine (his casing was recovered near where he fell) I had no idea until after the incident how many shots I fired, until my cylinder was checked. The incident was surreal and felt like when you were a kid, in the outfield, not paying attention, when a line drive is hit straight at you and reflexively, you catch it, then look in your glove to find the ball. After I removed his gun, I got on the phone and called 911 for an ambulance, making no statement, other than to say I was a PO involved in a shooting and the perp needs an ambulance forthwith.

You NEVER shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. I chalk this perps actions up as "Fight or flight". If he had more time to think about it, he may not have done it. He came from a good family, even though he was a ***.

I would say to anyone, civilian or Police after the incident, if you can call for an ambulance and make NO Statement. When the Police arrive tell them "I fired in self defense, I need to go to a Hospital and I need to speak to a lawyer". I say this not because the Police will necessarily be out to hurt you, but you may be so traumatized you may make off color statement like "I got the bastid", which would not make you look good after the fact.
 
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Lost Lake,

There are no valid one shot stop stats. Simply do not exist. Too many variables in each shooting to quantify. Mainstream LE trainers dismissed them years ago for many good reasons. Bill

I don't know... If a certain city sees these kind of numbers and several hundred rounds of 40 and 357 produce one stop shots, I tend to believe the numbers. I mean yes, there are variables, but don't you think several hundred dead people kind of covers most of those variables?

So now I will be carrying my measly .380 because it is so small and cute. I see the measly .380 has a 60% or 70% chance or so of a one stop shot... That probably means if I can get off 2 or 3 well placed shots I have a pretty good chance of being successful stopping the bad guy.

Yes I have big guns, and I have big rifles and I have even tossed grenades and launched some LAW at armored vehicles... but I choose to carry a measly .380. I don't feel unarmed at all. :)
 
None of the people that I have killed with a 9mm have ever come back to life, to my knowledge.

All my time ground combat in Vietnam and almost 34 years of LE I lived by this when it came to handguns.

Shot Placement is the King, Caliber is the Queen, Capacity is the Prince, the Number of rounds you
put into the Target is the Princess and the quality of the Gun is the Joker.


Rule 303
 
I see the measly .380 has a 60% or 70% chance or so of a one stop shot... That probably means if I can get off 2 or 3 well placed shots I have a pretty good chance of being successful stopping the bad guy.
Actually it means nothing. Additional shots do not statistically improve your chances of a stop as each shot is an independent event, they are not cumulative. It's like tossing a coin, the odds of tossing heads or tails do not change depending on previous tosses. The numbers of times this is proven in real life shoots are legend in the field.

The original stats quoted are bogus for essentially the same reason. A one shot stop is an isolated event that has no bearing on subsequent shots. If your particular round does well in a "test" like this and that makes you feel better there's certainly nothing wrong with that however.

Bob
 
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Good Article

There's an article in the recent issue of Handguns by someone who did a load of research on the weapon with the most stopping power. The conclusion in a nutshell is that the type of weapon or ammo is less important than the shooter's skill in placing his shots on target in a stressful situation. Training, not technology was the key.

I'm only reporting, having no direct experience of my own.

This is an excellent article on 'Stopping Power' And really put a lot of the myths to rest. Great read if you have the chance,
 
Right On

Great post crazybastid83, well said. I was an MP and quickly tired of the barracks super cops, "Well I'd do this." bull. You don't know until the situation presents it's self. The real key is to train, train and train some more. In stress, you will always revert to your training. If you train yourself to target shoot, that's what you'll do when it hits the fan. Thanks for the well stated facts.
 
Kanewpadle,

Many years ago when I became a LE firearms instructor I was taken in by the one shot stop stats and books. With out going into an 8 hour discussion these stats have been discredited with in my profession for many reasons. If you have valid, truthful, one shot stats with no data omitted on purpose or fabricated, that would be wonderful.

If you find these stats useful and believe in them, that is fine. Like the fast/light vs slow heavy bullet debate that will never be settled, the same is with the one shot stop stats conroversy. Bill
 
Actually it means nothing. Additional shots do not statistically improve your chances of a stop as each shot is an independent event, they are not cumulative. It's like tossing a coin, the odds of tossing heads or tails do not change depending on previous tosses. The numbers of times this is proven in real life shoots are legend in the field.

Bob

Oh I'd disagree on that... Holes in people are cumulative events! One hole, maybe not so bad, two holes worse, 25,000 holes in a guy and he's cumulatively hurting pretty bad, no matter what the caliber. And as far as flipping a coin, well every time you flip you have the chance of coming up tails, just like every time you pull the trigger you have a chance of hitting a vital zone. The more chances you have to hit that vital zone, the better the chance you will win. :D
 
Oh I'd disagree on that... Holes in people are cumulative events! One hole, maybe not so bad, two holes worse, 25,000 holes in a guy and he's cumulatively hurting pretty bad, no matter what the caliber. And as far as flipping a coin, well every time you flip you have the chance of coming up tails, just like every time you pull the trigger you have a chance of hitting a vital zone. The more chances you have to hit that vital zone, the better the chance you will win. :D


Exactly why a load of 00 buck is so devastating.

Shock value.
 
Oh I'd disagree on that... Holes in people are cumulative events! One hole, maybe not so bad, two holes worse, 25,000 holes in a guy and he's cumulatively hurting pretty bad, no matter what the caliber. And as far as flipping a coin, well every time you flip you have the chance of coming up tails, just like every time you pull the trigger you have a chance of hitting a vital zone. The more chances you have to hit that vital zone, the better the chance you will win. :D
We certainly agree that 25,000 holes in a guy is not good and when I figure out what that has to do with anything I'll get back to you. As far as chances to hit the vital zone increasing the chances you will win, real life does not support that. There are far more examples of cops firing 15, 20 or more rounds at the bad guy with no harm than where the bad guy is actually hit. Sorry, that is just reality.

Bob
 
Suppose you shoot a couple of thugs with your new hi-tech underpowered duty ammo that was chosen by your department's lawyers. All of them were shot square in the chest. The bullets failed to penetrate but the thugs simply are cowards and didn't like getting shot. They dropped their weapons and said "I stop!" You're starting to feel very good about your 100% stopping power. The lawyers were right! Penetration is bad. I shoot only to stop, not to kill. I am compassionate, etc.

Well, the next guy is a little bigger. Maybe it's cold outside and he's wearing a heavy coat. Maybe he's on drugs or is really angry over his bad day. Maybe he doesn't like being bossed around by a lone cop who is half his body mass, or female. Or maybe he'd just rather die than go back to prison. You shoot him in the chest with your same new hi-tech underpowered duty ammo that was chosen by your department's lawyers. But this time he doesn't go down. One hit, two, three... What could possibly have gone wrong? The one shot stop statistics were so perfect?

Has anybody ever seen a statistic that measures mindset?

Dave Sinko
 
Right on.

And ask yourself why the Navy Seals get to choose their own weapons and it is not a 9.

Guess why the FBI has gone to the Springfield .45 1911.

Guess why people don't go bear hunting with a .22, or a .38 or a 9?

Shot placement is important but I would bet a 20MM cannon shell would make a bigger impression on a bad guy than a 9MM, both placed in the same spot.

Read Ayoob. Very interesting reading.
 
Until I find a way to carry an M1 Garand in my pant leg, with a few extra clips in my pocket, .357 will have to do:)
 
Comparing the weapons and ammo that the military uses to what Police and Civilians use is a totally different ball game. The military usually are allowed to KILL. Police and Civilians are only allowed to stop the threat, generally speaking. There are certain instances where a PO can shoot to kill, usually that would be a hostage situation, where they have to take the head shot, or a wounded gunman would be able to take out hostages. Police are taught to hit center mass, to end the conflict. Police are also taught head shots, in case the threat is wearing body armor.

All I know is I wouldn't let a friend shoot an apple off my head whether he has a .22 or a .44
 
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