What has happened to the .357 Magnum?

[Nightowl]

some time round the 1990's SAAMI changed the standard on the 357mag loads from 45,000 cups to 35,000psi, the reason why is unclear.

cups and psi are not equal. From what I have read, there is not arithmetic formula to convert one to the other, either. Don't understand that, just repeating what I have read. So I am not sure there is any difference in the actual pressure pushing the bullet out of the barrel in those numbers.

 

[Maximumbob54]

some time round the 1990's SAAMI changed the standard on the 357mag loads from 45,000 cups to 35,000psi, the reason why is unclear.

Whenever the .357 velocity issue comes up I always think the same thing: Add the above quote + the eventual demise of the Combat Magnum 19/66 and you get modern ammo loadings. The .357 started out in a large frame with a lot more steel and we kept scaling the steel back more and more. Alloys and heat treating will only get you so far when you have less steel to work with. I'm willing to bet that you can also add in the combo of the desire for reduces recoil loads combined with marketing logic of smaller guns being able to handle .357 loads and what do you think they are going to end up doing with the .357 now not so magnum??? So maybe it is our own fault for wanting more from less? Example: I love my 2.5 Model 19 but I can't imagine what it would be like firing a 1,500 FPS 158 gr SWC from it while I have been able to fire both 125 gr Remington Golden Saber and Federal 130 gr Hydra Shock from my Model 640 wearing a Pachmayr Compac stock. So maybe what we could be asking for is a bring back on the higher pressure loads but make them +P and start marking guns as such. You run not too much more risk than if you load +P .38's in a non +P gun. That seems reasonable to me and should placate lawyers the same way.

 

[Maximumbob54]

cups and psi are not equal. From what I have read, there is not arithmetic formula to convert one to the other, either. Don't understand that, just repeating what I have read. So I am not sure there is any difference in the actual pressure pushing the bullet out of the barrel in those numbers.

Also:

PSI to CUP CONVERSION FORMULA

Something like this always pops up when I search for this, and this is what I always see for a conversion. It is always labeled as not being exact but always close. So no, it isn't exact but you are still talking apples and not oranges. But this is why you start loads low and work them up. What works in one gun may not work in yours.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I think another reason for the decline in velocity of factory offerings is the evolution and improvement of the bullets. For self defense purposes you don't need maximum velocities for them to work, however for hunting purposes, it is getting harder to find good loads other than specialty rounds at a premium price.

 

[AZ Desertrat]

After doing some chrono work in the field...I agree with some of the statements about "not being what it used to be." I have sold two .357's in the last month. S&W 686 and Ruger GP100. Not because I don't like the caliber...I just enjoy shooting it better with my Blackhawks...same goes for the .41 mag...Blackhawk gets the nod when I am in the boonies or hunting. I will just continue to load my own for SD and hunting and stick with the SA revolvers for outdoor stuff. 2 cents.

 

[McJoe]

ed zachary

T

I think another reason for the decline in velocity of factory offerings is the evolution and improvement of the bullets. For self defense purposes you don't need maximum velocities for them to work, however for hunting purposes, it is getting harder to find good loads other than specialty rounds at a premium price.

Hi guys, I signed up just to make this point... First, I shoot daily, mostly 22, and at least 15-30 rounds of 357 a week. I prefer Rem GS 125's. They have a BRASS jacket. Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc, the zinc making the copper less malleable. So, a RGS hollow point will not physically open the same as a copper jacket in the same material at the same velocity. Because the copper expands faster, more velocity is required to acheieve similar penetration as the bullet mushrooms soon after striking an organic mass.

Now compare the original .357 158gr. LSWC (soft lead round) @1400fps vs say remington 158 jsp @1200 or so... unjacketed lead would have what I consider to be "uncontrolled expansion" at that velocity. Opening almost instantly upon impact, the velocity was needed to achieve adequate penetration with the now severely deformed projectile. Compare that to the copper jacketed round, less boom, same penetration, thanks to the "controlled expansion" provided by the new fangled copper jacket. Copper jackets provide other benefits, such as cleaner barrels and better accuracy after more shots fired. The tradeoff is obvious in 'stopping power' as defined by 'pound feet'... more on this in a moment...

With the RGS brass, opening slower, if you threw that sucker at 1500 fps (as so many seem to think is necessary) it would blow right on through a man-sized target. I am experimenting with hand loads with GS 125's cooking at 2200 fps from my M77. Penetration is NOT an issue. I plan to hunt white tail with these projectiles this fall. I will have a better Idea of real world effects then. For now I have seen one penetrate 18" of solid beeswax. The petals were lost, but the core was still in pretty good shape. Who knows could be a black bear capable bullet too. More pen tests before I go that far.

The moral of the story? It has been proven time and time again, shot placement and adequate penetration are much more important than sheer force. GS rounds open consistently and penetrate to the depth necessary, and simply put, the extra velocity, flash, and recoil are not necessary to achieve a fight stopping hit. In my opinion, for it's intended purpose, the golden saber is the most well designed projectile for its application and loading, Not to mention it's proving to be a helluva rifle bullet when shes moving fast. Wish they made them in 158's and 180's.

Don't knock it till you try it.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Interesting info about the 125 gr Rem GS driven to those velocities. It seems to me that 2200fps may be just a little outside of the design envelope for expansion for good penetration and weight retention on big game, especially a tough critter like a bear. But if it holds together long enough, it should hit pretty hard.

I run the Hornady 160gr JTC-SIL in my Marlin 1894-C at over 1900 fps with Lil'Gun. I don't know if it expands or not because I haven't recovered one but it sure penetrates and will take the air out of deer! I would probably consider them adequate for black bears at close range since that is roughly equivalent to 30-30 levels at 100 yards and while not the best choice, the 30-30 has been used for that purpose for a good long time. I haven't tried any 125s yet, but achieving 2200fps should be possible with Lil'Gun in a carbine.

 

[Bdouthet]

Hi guys, I signed up just to make this point... First, I shoot daily, mostly 22, and at least 15-30 rounds of 357 a week. I prefer Rem GS 125's. They have a BRASS jacket. Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc. To put this in perspective, what happens when you add zinc to lead? It becomes harder (hence the term "hard cast"). So, a RGS hollow point will not physically open the same as a copper jacket. Because the copper expands faster, more velocity is required to acheieve necessary penetration as the bullet mushrooms soon after striking an organic mass, slowing itself down.

Now compare the original .357 158gr. LSWC round @1500fps vs say remington 158 jsp @1200 or so... unjacketed lead would have what I consider to be "uncontrolled expansion" at that velocity. Opening almost instantly upon impact, the velocity was needed to achieve adequate penetration with the now severely deformed projectile. Compare that to the copper jacketed round, less boom, same penetration, thanks to the "controlled expansion" provided by the new fangled copper jacket. Copper jackets provide other benefits, such as cleaner barrels and better accuracy after more shots fired. The tradeoff is obvious in 'stopping power' as defined by 'pound feet'... more on this in a moment...

With the RGS brass, opening slower, if you threw that sucker at 1500 fps it would blow right on through a man-sized target. I am experimenting with hand loads with GS 125's cooking at 2200 fps from my M77. Penetration is NOT an issue. I plan to hunt white tail with these projectiles this fall. Who knows could be a black bear capable bullet too. More pen tests before I go that far.

The moral of the story? It has been proven time and time again, shot placement and adequate penetration are much more important than sheer force. GS rounds open consistently and penetrate to the depth necessary, and simply put, the extra velocity, flash, and recoil are not necessary to achieve a fight stopping hit. In my opinion, for it's intended purpose, the golden saber is the most well designed projectile for its application and loading, Not to mention it's proving to be a helluva rifle bullet when shes moving fast. Wish they made them in 158's and 180's. Oh... and did I mention that they are water proof casings? Hows that for a go to sd round?

Oh did I also mention that they perform almost the same out of a 4" barrel as they do out of a snubbie? Similar velocity, penetration, and expansion...

Don't knock it till you try it friends. If you're going to bitch about what you read on the box, know first why it says what it says. Thanks for reading.

Oh where to start
You really think that Hard Cast bullets have zinc in them?
Brass is an alloy of the mixture of copper and zinc and the Copper jackets on handgun bullets is all so an alloy the mixture of copper and zinc.
You talk about takedown power
.357 158gr. LSWC round @1500fps (is most likely going to be a hard cast LSWC GC) vs. say Remington 158 jsp @1200
And the hard cast LSWC GC 158gr is going to kick the 158gr JSP's rear end on true takedown, kill power and penetration.

I have played with a few types and brands.
The Golden Saber 125gr HP does great for a 38spl, but for a 357mag they are junk 75% of the time the jacket comes right off on pond impact. You shoot a bear with a 125gr bullet and he will eat you for dinner.

If you wish me to go on I will and you will not like it.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

...Can you say that in a public forum?

Heck, look at what "Firefly" got away with by speaking Chinese!

Geoff
Who is told at least one native Mandarin speaker turned off the TV!

 

[Skip Sackett]

I usually don't even come to this section of the forum.

As for the 357Mag being weenie-ized, no, it hasn't been, to my knowledge. 'Course, my knowledge is solely based on the ammo that is turned out on my equipment in my basement with bullets cast in my garage, um, for the most part.

I shoot some jacketed stuff, mostly in rifle loads though.

To put things in perspective though, I have a 357Mag load that leaves a Marlin 1894 at over 2000fps, it uses a Hornady 158gr XTP and a healthy heapin' helpin of Lil' Gun powder. In past experiences with this rifle and the corresponding handgun, a M586 with a 6" barrel, there is usually a 300fps difference in velocity between the two. That being said, I do not shoot Lil' Gun through revolvers because of the issue that Freedom Arms has explored when others have done so.

All of this may seem to be apples and oranges to you folks here BUT, the point I am trying to make is this: "Stop being controlled by others. You are quite capable of having the exact ammo you want, when you want it, in the quantities you want, for the price you want that has been developed by you in your firearms. The system to provide such is called RELOADING! Start today!"

All of that being said, there is no zinc in cast bullets. If you put one ppm in your melt, you will have ruined its ability to fill the mould out and it is of no use to you at that point. Other metals are added to such alloys, antimony, Tin, Linotype, Monotype along with others, to make bullets harder.

FWIW

 

[McJoe]

u missed the point

Oh where to start
You really think that Hard Cast bullets have zinc in them?
Brass is an alloy of the mixture of copper and zinc and the Copper jackets on handgun bullets is all so an alloy the mixture of copper and zinc.
You talk about takedown power
.357 158gr. LSWC round @1500fps (is most likely going to be a hard cast)

vs. say Remington 158 jsp @1200
And the hard cast LSWC GC 158gr is going to kick the 158gr JSP's rear end on true takedown, kill power and penetration.

I have played with a few types and brands.
The Golden Saber 125gr HP does great for a 38spl, but for a 357mag they are junk 75% of the time the jacket comes right off on pond impact. You shoot one with a 125gr bullet and he will eat you for dinner.

If you wish me to go on I will and you will not like it.

Do as you must, but you missed the point I was trying to make.

First, thanks your pointing out a typo... I meant to say TIN in place of zinc for hard cast bullets.

Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this.

Third, the only person I was arguing with was the dude who said GS are garbage. Must have been you...

A jsp at the same weight and velocity WILL have more kockdown power than a HARD CAST wadcutter. It will transfer more energy to the target when it expands. HC rounds are non expanding, kinda like fmj's. Penetration and non-expansion is their trademark. Original .357 rounds were lead. Unjacketed SOFT LEAD performs MUCH differently at magnum velocities than do jacketed bullets. I agree that a LEAD (not hard cast) wadcutter will have more knockdown than a jacketed round at the same velocity. It will also have less penetration, due to deformation, hence the need (initially) for higher velocities.

You keep changing your focus to hard cast... hard cast is for penetration. Knockdown on a HC isnt much more than an fmj at the same weight/velocity. This is an non-expanding projectile that is designed to penetrate with minimal deformation. In fact in my opinion the only reason to use HC over FMJ is because they can be made at home and at much less expense than a jacketed round. The only time you will get 'knockdown' ability from a hc is if you hit the shoulderblade, heart, or CNS. So yeah, youre wrong there, a HC will pass through where a sp/hp will transfer more nrgy to the target, while penetrating less. This is well known stuff bud. And physics are pysics, unless youre God, or an alien.

Please stop shooting your pond... its dangerous.

Did you know you can buy BONDED golden sabers? Problem solved... the bonded ones were all ive ever used so I assumed thats all that was made anymore.

I also didnt imply that a 125 gs factory round would be adequate for protection from black bears. I said a 125 grain brass jacketed projectile flying at nearly twice the speed of sound will MOST LIKELY have excellent expansion and penetration characteristics on something the size and density of a black bear for HUNTING purposes. It might also explode and not even make it through the fat and skin. I didnt tell anyone to go out and do it. I didnt say I planned to do it. I said I still have more testing to do before I even consider it. And obviously, my load for this purpose will use the bonded projectile.

The point of this thread can be found in the title... I am simply trying to give everyone MY perspective that while velocities for common 357 rounds have decreased, this is, in my experience, due to advancements in projectile technology. You simply do not need to push a jacketed bullet as hard as a non jacketed round to achieve adequate penetration. To push a 158 jacketed round as fast as the original 158 LWC is asking for overpenetration and wasted energy, both terminally, and in recoil and flash/blast.

So yea, you can say whatever you want. Youve already proven you have a hard time comprehending what you read, and I know my physics.

 

[dogdoc]

Agree 100 percent. I do not see how anyone who shoots alot would not be a handloader. The money saving alone is worth it.

I usually don't even come to this section of the forum.

As for the 357Mag being weenie-ized, no, it hasn't been, to my knowledge. 'Course, my knowledge is solely based on the ammo that is turned out on my equipment in my basement with bullets cast in my garage, um, for the most part.

I shoot some jacketed stuff, mostly in rifle loads though.

To put things in perspective though, I have a 357Mag load that leaves a Marlin 1894 at over 2000fps, it uses a Hornady 158gr XTP and a healthy heapin' helpin of Lil' Gun powder. In past experiences with this rifle and the corresponding handgun, a M586 with a 6" barrel, there is usually a 300fps difference in velocity between the two. That being said, I do not shoot Lil' Gun through revolvers because of the issue that Freedom Arms has explored when others have done so.

All of this may seem to be apples and oranges to you folks here BUT, the point I am trying to make is this: "Stop being controlled by others. You are quite capable of having the exact ammo you want, when you want it, in the quantities you want, for the price you want that has been developed by you in your firearms. The system to provide such is called RELOADING! Start today!"

All of that being said, there is no zinc in cast bullets. If you put one ppm in your melt, you will have ruined its ability to fill the mould out and it is of no use to you at that point. Other metals are added to such alloys, antimony, Tin, Linotype, Monotype along with others, to make bullets harder.

FWIW

 

[BobC357]

Ideally, you want 100% of the energy transferred on impact. If the bullet passes clean through then that didn't happen.

As APS noted someone shot a deer and the bullet stopped at the skin on the other side of the entrance. That's what you want.

I load most of my own .357 mags because they have gotten too expensive and I try to pump 50 week through my old mod 28.

 

[Bdouthet]

Do as you must, but you missed the point I was trying to make.

First, thanks your pointing out a typo... I meant to say TIN in place of zinc for hard cast bullets.

Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this.

Third, the only person I was arguing with was the dude who said GS are garbage. Must have been you...

A jsp at the same weight and velocity WILL have more kockdown power than a HARD CAST wadcutter. It will transfer more energy to the target when it expands. HC rounds are non expanding, kinda like fmj's. Penetration and non-expansion is their trademark. Original .357 rounds were lead. Unjacketed SOFT LEAD performs MUCH differently at magnum velocities than do jacketed bullets. I agree that a LEAD (not hard cast) wadcutter will have more knockdown than a jacketed round at the same velocity. It will also have less penetration, due to deformation, hence the need (initially) for higher velocities.

You keep changing your focus to hard cast... hard cast is for penetration. Knockdown on a HC isnt much more than an fmj at the same weight/velocity. This is an non-expanding projectile that is designed to penetrate with minimal deformation. In fact in my opinion the only reason to use HC over FMJ is because they can be made at home and at much less expense than a jacketed round. The only time you will get 'knockdown' ability from a hc is if you hit the shoulderblade, heart, or CNS. So yeah, youre wrong there, a HC will pass through where a sp/hp will transfer more nrgy to the target, while penetrating less. This is well known stuff bud. And physics are pysics, unless youre God, or an alien.

Please stop shooting your pond... its dangerous.

Did you know you can buy BONDED golden sabers? Problem solved... the bonded ones were all ive ever used so I assumed thats all that was made anymore.

I also didnt imply that a 125 gs factory round would be adequate for protection from black bears. I said a 125 grain brass jacketed projectile flying at nearly twice the speed of sound will MOST LIKELY have excellent expansion and penetration characteristics on something the size and density of a black bear for HUNTING purposes. It might also explode and not even make it through the fat and skin. I didnt tell anyone to go out and do it. I didnt say I planned to do it. I said I still have more testing to do before I even consider it. And obviously, my load for this purpose will use the bonded projectile.

The point of this thread can be found in the title... I am simply trying to give everyone MY perspective that while velocities for common 357 rounds have decreased, this is, in my experience, due to advancements in projectile technology. You simply do not need to push a jacketed bullet as hard as a non jacketed round to achieve adequate penetration. To push a 158 jacketed round as fast as the original 158 LWC is asking for overpenetration and wasted energy, both terminally, and in recoil and flash/blast.

So yea, you can say whatever you want. Youve already proven you have a hard time comprehending what you read, and I know my physics.

Quote"Second, true brass jackets have much more zinc than 'copper' rounds, making them harder. Yes, I am fully aware of this."

where do you get this from? you can not know if its harder unless you know what the alloy of brass or copper is used.
some copper alloys are harder then brass alloy. What alloys are you talking about?

Clearly you know very little about Lead alloys and the Original .357 mag that used a cast lead alloy bullet.

Your perspective lacks common knowledge. Come back with more knowledge.

later

 

[Boge]

The original "manstopper" .357 was the Rem. 125 gr. HP (non Golden Saber) that they still make as well as the legendary Fed. 125 gr. Magnum. I shoot & carry the Federals once in a while in a Model 13-3 HB and they are a handful. Deadly accurate and they smoke right along!!

A lot of testing in the old days was not "honest" in that they used 6" or greater test barrels and not real world guns to get their advertised velocities as after all it was & is advertising.

The .357 Mag. with 125 gr. HP's is still a winner for self defense but few are the people who can shoot one accurately & quickly under range conditions let alone under stress.

 

[scooter123]

IMO some of us have a tendancy to view the past through rose tinted lenses.

Now, if you take off those rose tinted lenses and look around, today you'll find that there are some VERY stout 357 Magnum loadings available from some smaller manufacturers. Buffalo Bore and Double Tap both have a reputation for building loads that push the limits of what can be done. I just looked at Double Tap and they list a 158 gn. JHP listed at 1245 fps out of a 1 7/8 inch S&W, 1400 fps out of a 4 inch Ruger GP-100, and 1540 fps out of a 6 inch 686. In addition to these Defense loads they also offer a variety of other loads that will raise your eyebrows. I expect that if I were to look at Buffalo Bore I would find similar results. That being 357 Magnums that produce numbers that are historical for the 357 Magnum.

PS; personally IMO the 357 Magnum is too much of a good thing and NOT a good choice for Defense. It's too loud, the section energy density is too high, and the recoil doesn't permit rapid followups in anything lighter than about 45 ounces. That means when loaded near maximum levels it'll leave you deafened, the bullet will just blow through your opponent, and you'll be standing there with your ears ringing and hand stinging with the gun off target when you should be firing a second shot. For these reasons I don't find it the least bit surprizing that many commercial SD loads are reduced recoil variants that actually allow a more effective defense. To be blunt, More Power isn't always the best answer, the best answer is to choose the most effective power available that works for YOU.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I understand you point, and that is why the 38 special still exists. It is not as loud, it is not too much of a good thing as you state. It will not leave you as stunned as a 357 mag will do in a close battle.

So let me flip this back your way. Why wimp out the 357 magnum and bring it down to 38/44 power levels when what you really should do is keep the old power levels and just sell different ammo to the customer?

This is what I see has happened. Every 357/38 revolver round has dropped one power level in the last 40 years. Basically since the 357 Maximum came out, they all dropped one level. I have chrono-ed old ammo and modern ammo. It is fascinating to see that modern 357 Magnum ammo is about the same velocities at 38/44 ammo from the early 50's.

In my mind and my chrono tells me that regardless of the propaganda, modern 357 magnum is about equal to 38/44. Modern 38+P is about equal to old 38 special. Modern 38 special is about equal to old 38 long colt or 38 S&W depending on your take.

I have loaded up to full 1930's power level 357 magnum in my 8 3/8" pre-27's. It is impressive what the big guns can do with decent ammo. Put that same load in a 6.5" Registered magnum and it is also impressive. Big boom, lots of recoil but the cases just fall out of the cylinder. Would I want to shoot a lot of those in a K frame lightweight gun? No.

Buffalo bore and a few others have basically made a business out of providing folks what they used to get from the big boys like Fed/Win/Rem.

Some will argue many points as to why. Different technologies for measurement, liability, weak guns, light guns etc., but at the end of the day the results are the same.

 

[Harrison]

For those that want blazing velocity from their 357 magnums, yet don't want to risk an overload of powder, there is a simple solution. Get a lever action carbine, 16-20 in barrel. I have two a Rossi Mdl 92 and a Marlin Mdl 1894, both chambered for 357 mag. Both carbines are light handy and for any given load will give you 300-350 fps more velocity that you will get from a pistol. Also both are more accurate to shoot beyond 25 yards or so than a pistol. They each hold more rounds in the magazine than a pistol.

 

[scooter123]

Peter, IMO the reason why you've seen a drop in performance in the 357 Magnum from the Major brands is due to simple Economy of Scale. Their production line and business model is set up so that they only make a profit when they produce LARGE volumes of a particular loading. This means that they have to SELL large volumes of a particular load and with the 357 Magnum now being used mainly for Defense in smaller and lighter revolvers that means that it's the reduced recoil loads that sell in volume. Now, there is a bit of good news in this, that is that niche suppliers such as Buffalo Bore and Double Tap can use a business model that would be a disaster for the major brands and also supply a small niche with the ammo they need.

 

[rwsmith]

Since more people have chronometers and info is more available....

... I think the ammo manufacturers aren't as prone to exaggerate velocity as they used to be besides making ammunition that is safe for any old clunker out there in order to cover their own butts. I find that most of the hype and wild claims now are aimed toward terminal ballistics of the bullet. Something like "This bullet will drop your target first hit and will chew a tremendous wound channel through the main guts." Bullets are being made more scientifically and generally better but companies still tend to try to outdo each other. However, even now there is a lot of info on the web about terminal ballistics tests of factory bullets. If you want the best, you will most likely get it by hand loading your own. I only have three needs. Target, plinking and defense. I like being able to shoot flatter at 100yds but in a defense situation if I need to shoot beyond point blank range, I don't need to shoot at all unless they have me "pinned down behind the rocks" like they do in cowboy movies. I have hot .38 special +Ps for home defense because I don't want a .357 to blast my ears out. Also, I like shooting a lot more than I do cleaning lead out of my barrel so for me shooting lead at magnum velocities is out.