Flashmobs are gaining in frequency. What to do?

[Zepoll]

Really?

And really, a flashmob is just a group of teens that go running through the streets knocking over old people, punching couples and men, and smashing cars, windows and anything not bolted down.
To be completely honest, I can see the attraction they have to this activity. They loot and get new things, they are in a huge group whooping and running and having fun, and they can take out aggression on helpless people with no repercussions.

It is easy to organize, just post it on facebook and if more than 6 show up, you're off to the races.

Stopping it is the hard part.

I saw a non-lethal sticky spray once that tangles a running person... Maybe something like that to catch these thugs....

Or a can of wasp hive killer, or bear spray, or some other large scale fogging agent.

The typical flash mob does just like you described.. they run through the streets hitting people or breaking things or stealing things.

Your best option is to run, and if you have to use your gun, then use it to get away.

Lets say you open fire on a flash mob heading your way. You can choose the number of kids in the mob. How many rounds do you carry. How many are you actually going to kill? How many are you going to wound?

How are you going to explain yourself to a jury, mostly made of parents, that you needed to use deadly force and kill/wound however many that you did end up killing or wounding?

Did you reload? As so many comments have already stated carrying multiple magazines. So you had time to take aim and fire and empty a magazine, and reload, and fire again, but you didn't have time to get away?

And keep in mind the imagery of you on the stand and 10 poster board size photos in the courtroom full of nice clean cute photos of the innocent children that you viciously murdered.

(These aren't my words, I'm just playing the role of the prosecuting attorney)

And what about the kids that you didn't kill, but only wounded... what are their stories going to be? Is it going to contradict the story you're telling?

What about the rounds that don't hit their target? Are there innocent bystanders in the area? Usually these mobs take place where there are a large volume of people around. Every shot you take that doesn't hit target is a shot that you are responsible for. Are you going to hit an innocent bystander?

Are you going to be sued by the families of the innocents killed?

Are you going to be sued by the families of the wounded kids that you didn't kill?

You might survive the moment, and win THAT battle, but I could easily see losing the war in this situation.

And after your broke or in jail, you'll have given the anti's one more example of why private citizens armed with guns is a bad idea.

 

[hpoelzig]

(These aren't my words, I'm just playing the role of the prosecuting attorney)
You might survive the moment, and win THAT battle, but I could easily see losing the war in this situation.
And after your broke or in jail, you'll have given the anti's one more example of why private citizens armed with guns is a bad idea.

Point definitely taken.

(My own feeling is, if I need a reload, I'm out of my depth -- but that's just me.)

I would guess/hope that just drawing the weapon in self-defense would be enough to make most of these mob-kids leave you alone. Their behavior is predicated on victims acting like victims and parents and cops doing nothing effective before or after.

Deadly force is a permanent way to stop anti-social behavior, but that's also its major drawback. As I see it, the pushback against flashmobs has to come from citizens, because the mobs' very nature makes them difficult or impossible to police. The pushback does not have to be deadly, but the bad actors are also unlikely to take you seriously if all you have on your side is words and the rule of law. But teaching respect at gunpoint is a dodgy project.

No easy answers.

Situational awareness is an even better weapon to deploy. See a crowd of "exuberant youth" coming toward you and your companions, you head the other way. If you know areas that are likely to have trouble, stay away in the first place.

In Philly, I used to live not far from South Street, an edgy young-people's and marginal-people's playground. I used to sit in my apartment on Saturday nights and listen to the sound of vehicle impacts and sirens coming and going from there. I stayed OFF that street on weekend nights and holidays.

hjalmar

 

[cmort666]

Your best option is to run, and if you have to use your gun, then use it to get away.

No, that's absolutely my WORST option.

I was a lousy runner when I was an Infantry officer. At 53, I'm no faster. If I KNOW I'm not going to get away, it's STUPID for me to run, knowing I'll get caught and be too tired to fight.

The law in Ohio only requires me to ATTEMPT to withdraw, and then ONLY if I can do so IN PERFECT SAFETY. Turning my back on a violent assailant fails that test out the gate.

I will attempt to withdraw. If somebody violently thwarts my attempt to do so, they're probably going to get shot, and the odds of me being prosecuted are vanishingly small. And when it's ruled a good shoot, the probability of an assailant or his mutant relative collecting a DIME from me drop to ZERO. And that's BY LAW.

 

[walnutred]

Or a can of wasp hive killer, or bear spray, or some other large scale fogging agent.

Lets say you open fire on a flash mob heading your way. You can choose the number of kids in the mob. How many rounds do you carry. How many are you actually going to kill? How many are you going to wound?

For some reason this brings to mind the obligatory cattle/buffalo stampede that seemed to appear in every ‘50s western. You know, where the hero saves the heroine by building a wall of bovine carcasses using his trusty Colt 16 shooter. They then crouch behind the improvised wall while the remainder of the herd veers around them in their mad dash for the cliff face which they will unknowing plunge over in the next scene.

 

[jtpur]

Zepoll makes some valid points. Remember the law is whatever the judge says the law is and that is always re-enforced by the prosecutor and jury. I have seen cops indicted for murder for simply defending themselves against armed people. Janet Reno when she was the Miami Dade State's attorney indicted several cops for deadly force situations. Juries were reluctant to convict but riots erupted because of some jury verdicts too. Even the "shield" of law enforcement does not exept a rouge prosecutor from indicting if they feel in their minds that you acted unjustly...They get to determine unjust for indictments and once you're indicted the jury gets the last word...If you are convicted, appelate courts will only look at legal issues not fact issues, so your chance of a new trial barring gross judicial errors (errors made by the judge that would effect the jury verdict) are slim and none. If you can, get out and get out fast!

 

[celticfisherman]

On this note has anyone been to the movies lately and seen the Levi's ad running there? It shows the mob violence in London. It shows them in support of them and wearing Levi's. A typical levi's social action type of ad.

 

[Lost Lake]

Zepoll makes a very good point. And cmort666 also!

I think backing into a wall or corner and drawing your weapon is a prudent action. You are scared and cornered. You are showing the same, and you are indicating you can defend yourself. I know I can't outrun a mob of teenagers. Hopefully I can show I have a method of self defense and they move on to easier targets.

 

[boomer686]

Consider this, would you say the riots in Chicago in 1968 were like a flash mob today? Because whether you will admit it or not this is what its building to. Civil unrest slowly beginning and expanding can give a govt, ours or anyones, the excuse to use large numbers of police, military or their own to put this down. Blame is then put on a group, tea party maybe, to turn public opinion against them. I think this week a demonstration to take down Wall Street is being planned as peaceful but in fact meant to turn nasty. Check this out. read the whole thing:"







A US Day of Rage is the title given to a day of ostensibly “non-violent” civil disobedience orchestrated by a group of radicals — that reportedly include Service Employees International Union’s Stephen Lerner and ACORN founder Wade Rathke (who, coincidentally, formerly served as president of SEIU’s local New Orleans branch) — targeting Wall Street and U.S. capitalism.



It’s worth noting that the title of the movement — if its intentions are indeed non-violent in nature — appears to contradict itself slightly.


Read more: US Day of Rage Non-Violent Civil Disobedience Wall Street | Video | TheBlaze.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Although this certainly doesn’t look too well organized, it dates back to 1969 when Bill Ayers, the man who started obama into politics by giving obama an initial $10,000.00 in seed money – here’s how Ayers did it back then:






Yet despite Ayers’ initial claim that his Day of Rage, too, would be “non-violent,” during the four day rampage that started in Chicago’s historic Lincoln Park, Ayer’s organization, the Weathermen arrived in full-clad battle gear, helmets and weapons in tow, and called on activists to kill the rich and even their own parents.

During an interview with Chicago Mag, Ayers, with no regrets, summed up his riot’s intended purpose, stating, ”kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents—that‘s where it’s really at.”

 

[boomer686]

A follow up on my previous post on flash mobs. I know sound a little wacko right? Consider this from this months additon of The Primer, a newsletter of the Oklahoma City Gun Club. Go to this link and down to page 7:

http://www.okcgunclub.org/newsletter/current.pdf

 

[roscoguy]

Consider this, would you say the riots in Chicago in 1968 were like a flash mob today? Because whether you will admit it or not this is what its building to. Civil unrest slowly beginning and expanding can give a govt, ours or anyones, the excuse to use large numbers of police, military or their own to put this down. Blame is then put on a group, tea party maybe, to turn public opinion against them. I think this week a demonstration to take down Wall Street is being planned as peaceful but in fact meant to turn nasty. Check this out. read the whole thing:"

That was a long, rambling article that was way too disjointed for me to finish. I never did see the part saying that it was "meant to turn nasty" though. Also, I've never heard of The Blaze, so it's hard to know exactly how much creedence to give to this "report".
I think I see your point, but I'd probably call these planned protests rather than flash mobs. I thought that flash mobs were planned in secret & sprung at a set time or signal where as these "Day of Rage" demonstrations are apparently planned openly. The distinction being that no one can anticipate the flash mob where as police can keep an eye on these guys & the rest of us could probably avoid the area if necessary.
If they actually have violent intentions, the whole movement will most likely fizzle like the Weathermen did. I doubt that many Americans would support a violent, extremist position like theirs these days. (Likewise, I don't see anyone associating the tea party with anti-Wall St. )
It seems to me that if our government wanted to 'de-focus' some of the rage, they could do an honest criminal investigation of the whole mortgage scandal instead of calling any such action "the blame game".

A follow up on my previous post on flash mobs. I know sound a little wacko right? Consider this from this months additon of The Primer, a newsletter of the Oklahoma City Gun Club. Go to this link and down to page 7:

[URL]http://www.okcgunclub.org/newsletter/current.pdf[/URL]

It looks like the term "flash mob" has really caught on in the press & has pretty much lost the distinction from any spontateous mob activity...

 

[Steve in Vermont]

It appears "Flash Mob" has morphed into "Flash Rob". The more I learn about this problem the more concerned I become. The ability to organize large groups so quickly and strike so suddenly leaves law enforcement at a disadvantage. And our advice to avoiding threatening situations becomes mute when we can't see the problem developing. Suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, you're in the middle of it. Stayed tuned. This is only the beginning of a very ugly problem that can only worsen with time.

 

[plainshunter]

Also, I've never heard of The Blaze, so it's hard to know exactly how much creedence to give to this "report".

The Blaze is Glenn Beck. Doesn't necessarily mean it has any more credibility because of the Glenn, but just FYI...

 

[cmort666]

The Blaze is Glenn Beck. Doesn't necessarily mean it has any more credibility because of the Glenn, but just FYI...

Beck's prepared stuff tends to be EXTREMELY well researched. He can't afford for it not to be, considering the legion of microscopes permanently trained on him.

 

[boomer686]

I guess we will get to see if the non violent Day of Rage that will be staged in NYC wall street this coming Sat. Might end up in some good old fashion chicago style nobbin knocken by the NYC pd..

 

[wharvey]

I'm not saying criminals in my area are dumb, but they couldn't organize a bake sale, let alone a flash mob.

I've often said much the same thing about the Republican party.

 

[wharvey]

Obviously a well thought out liberal response supported by MADD, the NAACP and a variety of liberal think-tanks. It's definitely time to take back our streets, our schools and our nation. We were once a proud country of hard working people who didn't expect or receive handouts and free rides. We worked for what we had, and if you didn't want to work, you got very little. Nowadays we coddle those who leech off society and pamper those who make our streets unsafe.

I recently heard that England now had 300,000 households whose members have NEVER WORKED. Wonder if there is a link to their present problems.

 

[boomer686]

You think these 300k households are folks who can get a job, don't want a job or are getting to much of the public teat to do anything but rage heck...As George Carlin once said, Don't want no war, don't want no war, Don't want no job either!

 

[wharvey]

Is there any basis of fact to infer these flash mobs strike primarily in areas where carrying a weapon is not allowed?

I don't find any flash mobs reported in Texas....

Milwaukee and Chicago both ban weapons. Philly? No weapons right?

There was o e in S. Dallas after a football game last weekend. Beat up a store clerk when he tried to stop them destroying his store.

 

[wharvey]

You think these 300k households are folks who can get a job, don't want a job or are getting to much of the public teat to do anything but rage heck...As George Carlin once said, Don't want no war, don't want no war, Don't want no job either!

It would seem unlikely that no one in each of those households wouldn't be able to find some type of work. Of course England is further along the socialist path than we are so who knows.

 

[wharvey]

I'll add to my string of post with one more. It seems that a common thought is that if we just show a threat of force or shot a few the others will disperse. That if of course what sane people would do. But don't forget about the prevailing nothing to lose mentality of many of today's youths. It only takes a couple to illicit the herd response.

It seems that it was a different forum that someone in a post said something like, the amount of ammo I carry will determine how many bodies they'll have to dig through to find mine. I suspect that may very well be the case if one of these go really bad.