FACTORY vs.RELOADS
- Thread starter rbswede
- Start date
mkk41
US Veteran
Anyone who's been on trial , or on a jury know that lawyers , prosecution and defense , and paid 'expert' witnesses have weeks/months to carefully word their questions and you have seconds to form an explanation , or more often , a yes/no answer on the stand.
Etemmu
Member
Factory for carry
szuppo
US Veteran
I carry Factory but if I had a better self defense load than Factory I would carry it.
I don't buy into any of the **** about Prosecutors having a field day on my ammo selection, or my modified trigger weight...blah, blah, blah, blah
Someone heard it from a friend that heard it from a friend that heard it from another friend that someone got sent to prison for using super bullets in their modified super self defense gun. Give me a break.............
If it was a clean and justified shoot, that is all that matters. Someone, anyone, please direct me to one case where a justified self defense shooting took place and the person was convicted because of the ammuniton they used. Anyone? chirp.....chirp.....chirp...... Can you hear the crickets?
I don't buy into any of the **** about Prosecutors having a field day on my ammo selection, or my modified trigger weight...blah, blah, blah, blah
Someone heard it from a friend that heard it from a friend that heard it from another friend that someone got sent to prison for using super bullets in their modified super self defense gun. Give me a break.............
If it was a clean and justified shoot, that is all that matters. Someone, anyone, please direct me to one case where a justified self defense shooting took place and the person was convicted because of the ammuniton they used. Anyone? chirp.....chirp.....chirp...... Can you hear the crickets?
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Reggie Dunlop
Member
I will only trust my life and the lifes of family members to ammunition I build. 30 years of doing it and not one FU. That is better than any commercialy manufactured ammo that I have experience with and I pretty much touched them all since 1976. As a matter of fact I have a cigar box about half full of factorty ammo that failed to fire or failed to chamber (and not just .22s).
Your choice may differ and that is cool, just understand that you will not change mine.
Your choice may differ and that is cool, just understand that you will not change mine.
szuppo.... All you have to do is read a little more. This was posted just a few posts ago. Read the case. The prosecution tore him up for using something 'other' than what the local cops use. The attacker was a known hot-head with a history of terrorizing people. The shooter was never in trouble in his life. The shooter went to jail. Read the case....
szuppo
US Veteran
I've read the case, he wasn't convicted because of the reloads. You should try reading the whole case and tell me where carrying reloads convicted him.
Not a clear cut justified shoot.
So. let's look at this. We have one, I repeat one shooting involving Factory 10MM that may or may not have played a role in this particular case. Out of the countless number of shootings that have taken place across the nation, some no doubt involving reloads we have only this particular case to reference. So we should not carry anything more powerful than what the police use? BS!
It is nothing more than Internet BS that is spread on Forums and has been spread at Gun shops across the Nation for years. Not ever having any concrete evidence. I bet I can find multiple cases on Factory self defense Hollow Point ammo being brought up in Courts more than reloads. Believe what you will, it's all nonsense.
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Actually, the point we're trying to get across is that attorneys with an unhealthy drive (to win cases, rather than seek justice; get elected/re-elected; get a better job or get that contingency fee), will use anything they can to further their objective. You can also add politicians with an agenda to that list.
Examples: Mike Nifong, who, a few years ago, drove the arrests of 3 Duke lacrosse players for a rape that didn't happen. The documented fact that one of them was several states away at the time didn't matter. If the parents weren't very well off, I expect the kids would be in jail.
Another was an incident here in Northern Virginia some years back where the issue was the use of a lawfully owned & posessed automatic weapon in a self defense shooting. While the police developed considerable evidence of justification, there was someone in the Commonwealth Attorney's Office with ambition. The guy never actually went to trial, but his legal expenses ran into 6 figures.
A 2009 shooting in Philadelphia where a young man attacked by a group of politically connected thugs went to trial despite the attack being filmed by a Fox News street cam. He was acquitted. When his attorney was asked about his "victory", the reply that "There were no victors in this case." was completely truthful.
Now, with these off-the-top-of-my-head examples of "prosecutorial descretion" as examples, if you want to hand the opposition additional material to use against you, feel free. If you read the previous posts carefully, some of what you've been reading are from folks who work in the criminal justice field. You want to ignore them feel free again. However, don't say you weren't warned.
Examples: Mike Nifong, who, a few years ago, drove the arrests of 3 Duke lacrosse players for a rape that didn't happen. The documented fact that one of them was several states away at the time didn't matter. If the parents weren't very well off, I expect the kids would be in jail.
Another was an incident here in Northern Virginia some years back where the issue was the use of a lawfully owned & posessed automatic weapon in a self defense shooting. While the police developed considerable evidence of justification, there was someone in the Commonwealth Attorney's Office with ambition. The guy never actually went to trial, but his legal expenses ran into 6 figures.
A 2009 shooting in Philadelphia where a young man attacked by a group of politically connected thugs went to trial despite the attack being filmed by a Fox News street cam. He was acquitted. When his attorney was asked about his "victory", the reply that "There were no victors in this case." was completely truthful.
Now, with these off-the-top-of-my-head examples of "prosecutorial descretion" as examples, if you want to hand the opposition additional material to use against you, feel free. If you read the previous posts carefully, some of what you've been reading are from folks who work in the criminal justice field. You want to ignore them feel free again. However, don't say you weren't warned.
szuppo
US Veteran
You should all just hang your guns up and if your too scared to carry them then.
Silversmok3
Member
I believe the two most dangerous words in the English language are 'what if'.
All things considered,this question is much like the 'Glock vs 1911' debate, or the 'magazine disconnect yea-or-nay' dilemma.Each shooter has to make decisions based on their individual circumstances on this reload topic.
Personally, I would carry reloaded on three different points.
1-Factory ammo wont save you in court.Yes the prosecution cannot say that you made super lethal cop killer bullets in your basement. However, an attorney determined to put you in the greybar motel will merely state that you used factory +P jacketed hollow point ammo that expands on impact-"just why on Earth would a law abiding citizen carry high speed expanding ammo,lethal stuff that the military doesn't even use overseas in a war zone?"
Get my drift? Just because the rounds come in a box from a factory doesn't make it prosecution-proof.
Two, taking the advice of carrying what the local police use can be more problematic than one thinks.I don't own a .40 S&W handgun.Spending $500 on one so I can own a weapon that fires the same caliber as my local police district is a bit of a reach-that, plus the cost of ammo and practice time required to learn the weapon well enough to not blow my toes off during the draw.It also means that if you have a 1911 .45ACP odds are you'll have to change to a poly-frame .40 S&W that has not diddly squat in common with the weapon you have carried for years.
Three, what if you own a 10mm, 41. AE, .38 super, or other hard to find caliber? If the factory doesn't make it or the ammo is not sold in your town, should the gun then be retired to the display case for fear of meeting a nasty prosecutor?
Ill close this response by saying that while it is wise to prepare for the worst case scenario, it does not mean that it will happen in any of our particular cases.For every Harold Fish there are cases where the shoot was righteous and the DA dropped charges or the Grand Jury no-billed the shooter.
In case of the worst happening, having a competent defense team in court will go much farther to protect yourself legally than what box of ammo you buy.
All things considered,this question is much like the 'Glock vs 1911' debate, or the 'magazine disconnect yea-or-nay' dilemma.Each shooter has to make decisions based on their individual circumstances on this reload topic.
Personally, I would carry reloaded on three different points.
1-Factory ammo wont save you in court.Yes the prosecution cannot say that you made super lethal cop killer bullets in your basement. However, an attorney determined to put you in the greybar motel will merely state that you used factory +P jacketed hollow point ammo that expands on impact-"just why on Earth would a law abiding citizen carry high speed expanding ammo,lethal stuff that the military doesn't even use overseas in a war zone?"
Get my drift? Just because the rounds come in a box from a factory doesn't make it prosecution-proof.
Two, taking the advice of carrying what the local police use can be more problematic than one thinks.I don't own a .40 S&W handgun.Spending $500 on one so I can own a weapon that fires the same caliber as my local police district is a bit of a reach-that, plus the cost of ammo and practice time required to learn the weapon well enough to not blow my toes off during the draw.It also means that if you have a 1911 .45ACP odds are you'll have to change to a poly-frame .40 S&W that has not diddly squat in common with the weapon you have carried for years.
Three, what if you own a 10mm, 41. AE, .38 super, or other hard to find caliber? If the factory doesn't make it or the ammo is not sold in your town, should the gun then be retired to the display case for fear of meeting a nasty prosecutor?
Ill close this response by saying that while it is wise to prepare for the worst case scenario, it does not mean that it will happen in any of our particular cases.For every Harold Fish there are cases where the shoot was righteous and the DA dropped charges or the Grand Jury no-billed the shooter.
In case of the worst happening, having a competent defense team in court will go much farther to protect yourself legally than what box of ammo you buy.
I'm not scared to carry my gun, but I also want to give as little to a prosecutor as possible. There is no reason in the world to carry a reload. The FBI doesn't carry reloads. The police don't carry reloads, why in the world would Joe six-pack need to carry a reload? So that you could save 20 cents while shooting someone?
I put my reloads in when target shooting and put in factory rounds for my nightstand and holster. It's just that easy.
The case we referred to shows how a good prosecutor can instill doubt and questions in the mind of a juror. Sure YOU would know better, but the soccer moms who are judging your trial may be swayed enough by hearing you rolled your own and engraved "Die you commie thug" in each round and dipped them in goat's blood to seal the primer.
Call me paranoid if you'd like. Chances are ultra high I'll never draw my sidearm in public. But if I ever do, I'm sure I'll find that the $3 worth of factory shells I have in my weapon will work just fine, and they'll be politically correct cartridges to boot.
I put my reloads in when target shooting and put in factory rounds for my nightstand and holster. It's just that easy.
The case we referred to shows how a good prosecutor can instill doubt and questions in the mind of a juror. Sure YOU would know better, but the soccer moms who are judging your trial may be swayed enough by hearing you rolled your own and engraved "Die you commie thug" in each round and dipped them in goat's blood to seal the primer.
Call me paranoid if you'd like. Chances are ultra high I'll never draw my sidearm in public. But if I ever do, I'm sure I'll find that the $3 worth of factory shells I have in my weapon will work just fine, and they'll be politically correct cartridges to boot.
cshoff
Member
It's a personal decision, to be sure, and there are some legitimate points to be made by folks on both "sides" of the debate.
In my view, there are a HUGE amount of variables that will be present in the moments leading up to, during, and after a defensive shooting that are completely out of our control. Nearly all of those variables could become a liability to us at some point after the event if the investigators and prosecuting attorney handling the case choose to make them so.
There are also a number of variables that we have COMPLETE control over prior to ever being involved in a shooting. Making some good decisions in regards to those variables ahead of time can help mitigate any future liability in their regard.
In my opinion, minimizing liability over things which we have complete control over ahead of time is always the prudent thing to do. There will be plenty of variables which we don't have any control over that already have the potential to cause us grief. No need to add to it.
In my view, there are a HUGE amount of variables that will be present in the moments leading up to, during, and after a defensive shooting that are completely out of our control. Nearly all of those variables could become a liability to us at some point after the event if the investigators and prosecuting attorney handling the case choose to make them so.
There are also a number of variables that we have COMPLETE control over prior to ever being involved in a shooting. Making some good decisions in regards to those variables ahead of time can help mitigate any future liability in their regard.
In my opinion, minimizing liability over things which we have complete control over ahead of time is always the prudent thing to do. There will be plenty of variables which we don't have any control over that already have the potential to cause us grief. No need to add to it.
And not until the Ft. Hood shooting did DA switch from using "ball ammunition" (FMJ) to JHPs for LEO duties stateside and overseas where they are allowed by treaty (European nations still abhor the idea of expanding ammunition). They have been carried for PSD missions for a long time due to the liability of "over penetration" in places like DC (and in certain European countries have been confiscated)....but not for everyday LEO Ops...so it can be argued either way....just depends on that elected official called a district attorney
+1 I think that is some of the best advice I have heard in a long time.
So if I pull down some factory rounds and inspect the flash holes and reassemble them using the factory's powder and bullet am I carrying "handloads"? How could they tell? If you place your trust on the quality of factory ammunition one day you will be surprised to hear a click instead of a bang. I have seen factory rounds with primers inserted backwards, sideways and with no flash hole in the case. What if you really needed that round some night? There are plenty of reasons to carry handloaded ammunition. Poor quality control would be at the top of the list. Ask Tom Campbell (Team S&W) if he trusts factory loads after having a failure to fire in a National Match and then going home and finding the round that didn't fire had no flash hole in it. Pleasing the court is one thing. Walking away with your life is another thing.
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kraigwy
US Veteran
Carry what "cops" carry??????????????
Most cops carry 40 cal semis, I carry a 38 snub nose, how does that work?
I shoot thousands of rounds a year out of a revolver using the same rounds I carry in my 642 pocket pistol.
How would that compare in court with carrying factory bullets I don't shoot or practice with?
I carry per LEOSA and have to qualify yearly, I qualify with the rounds I carry and shoot in competition. Should I carry factory ammo I don't practice or quaify with?
In my cop days I was a UCSI (uniform crime scene investigator) and and still certified as a UCSI Instructor. I've delt with a lot of juries and lawyers in my 20 years of playing cop. Regardless of what you carry, some lawyer is going to try to muddy the waters, its their job.
Carry what you can defend, or if you can't defend your ammo then by all means use "common" factory ammo.
Best case would be like Wyoming, where if its a ligit SD situation, you can't be sued in civil court. But all states arn't like Wyoming.
I think each case is different. Our decissions should be based on our own situations, location, and experience.
Most cops carry 40 cal semis, I carry a 38 snub nose, how does that work?
I shoot thousands of rounds a year out of a revolver using the same rounds I carry in my 642 pocket pistol.
How would that compare in court with carrying factory bullets I don't shoot or practice with?
I carry per LEOSA and have to qualify yearly, I qualify with the rounds I carry and shoot in competition. Should I carry factory ammo I don't practice or quaify with?
In my cop days I was a UCSI (uniform crime scene investigator) and and still certified as a UCSI Instructor. I've delt with a lot of juries and lawyers in my 20 years of playing cop. Regardless of what you carry, some lawyer is going to try to muddy the waters, its their job.
Carry what you can defend, or if you can't defend your ammo then by all means use "common" factory ammo.
Best case would be like Wyoming, where if its a ligit SD situation, you can't be sued in civil court. But all states arn't like Wyoming.
I think each case is different. Our decissions should be based on our own situations, location, and experience.
If you are involved in a shooting, they will interview you, your family, and probably quite a few people you know. They will probably find out you load your own. Or they may ask you what ammo you use. You surely won't tell them it's factory ammo if it's not!
zorba
Member
Every time I have seen this issue discussed, almost everyone has focused on legal issues and how it might be used against a shooter in court in an attempt to make him look less responsible and more bloodthirsty. I am aware that no one has demonstrated an actual case where it clearly made a decisive difference. It may have been brought up by a prosecutor, but is there reason to believe that it has made a difference in how the verdict went? (I'm aware of the Fish case, and I don't see much reason to believe that it affected the verdict.) Nevertheless, I feel that it is prudent to carry factory ammo for self defense just to give myself every possible (even if theoretical) advantage.
There are other considerations besides the legal questions. I prefer my SD ammo to be loaded with low flash powder. As a hand loader, I have not been able to obtain such powder, but some commercial ammo (especially ammo marketed for LE use) is loaded with it.
I have been hand loading handgun ammo for 50 years, and I have never had a misfire or squib with my hand loads. So I feel like my hand loads are pretty reliable. But if there were an occasion where I felt I needed the maximum possible velocity and energy from my handgun, I would prefer to use factory loaded ammo. Some companies like Buffalo Bore do load to the maximum safe level. The factory has the pressure testing equipment and technical expertise to test their loads and get them as close to maximum as practical. They also have access to special powders which can enable them to get higher velocity than the hand loader can achieve.
IMO, maximum power loads are seldom necessary or advantageous in a self defense situation. But when I carry my 10 mm woods gun in the bush, I want maximum loads. In that case I select commercial maximum loads. (You have to chronograph them yourself to be sure that you are getting the advertised performance level.)
There are other considerations besides the legal questions. I prefer my SD ammo to be loaded with low flash powder. As a hand loader, I have not been able to obtain such powder, but some commercial ammo (especially ammo marketed for LE use) is loaded with it.
I have been hand loading handgun ammo for 50 years, and I have never had a misfire or squib with my hand loads. So I feel like my hand loads are pretty reliable. But if there were an occasion where I felt I needed the maximum possible velocity and energy from my handgun, I would prefer to use factory loaded ammo. Some companies like Buffalo Bore do load to the maximum safe level. The factory has the pressure testing equipment and technical expertise to test their loads and get them as close to maximum as practical. They also have access to special powders which can enable them to get higher velocity than the hand loader can achieve.
IMO, maximum power loads are seldom necessary or advantageous in a self defense situation. But when I carry my 10 mm woods gun in the bush, I want maximum loads. In that case I select commercial maximum loads. (You have to chronograph them yourself to be sure that you are getting the advertised performance level.)
mike from st pete
Member
I Have Nothing to Add
But I'm getting scared to even bother with using a gun?
Does the presence of a "I Don't Dial 911, I Dial 357", or "Trespassers Will Be Shot, Survivors Will Be Shot Again" or other cute sayings cause a self defense shooting to be used against the victim?
Does a trigger job, lowered ejection port, 3.5# connector and lighter springs or other "Custom" Gunsmithing cause an extra look from the DA?
Maybe the Predator Skull on the grips?
I'm honestly concerned.
But I'm getting scared to even bother with using a gun?
Does the presence of a "I Don't Dial 911, I Dial 357", or "Trespassers Will Be Shot, Survivors Will Be Shot Again" or other cute sayings cause a self defense shooting to be used against the victim?
Does a trigger job, lowered ejection port, 3.5# connector and lighter springs or other "Custom" Gunsmithing cause an extra look from the DA?
Maybe the Predator Skull on the grips?
I'm honestly concerned.
Yes, all these will be brought up in court.
I heard of a case where a person had a 'Danger - Dog on premises' sign and when the dog bit someone they lost the case. Their defense was they didn't know the dog would bite, yet their posting a warning sign indicated otherwise....
G-ManBart
Member
Terrible....just awful. TC flat points are almost the worst possible choice for self-defense. A modern JHP from any major ammunition company is a vastly superior choice. We issue Rem Golden Saber 230gr JHP for our .45 shooters, and haven't had any of the problems you mention...like bouncing around. Our guys develop all the testing that validates street results....just saying.
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