Keep in mind fella's, that according to the last FBI stats I saw......a few years back.....anyone who has six shots in their handgun AND actually winds up involved in a shooting - will likely not need to reload at all. Regards 18DAI
Pros & Cons of Disconnecting Magazine Safety?
- Thread starter Squibb
- Start date
A story and then a thought-Mag Safeties
Back in the mid 70's I worked for a University Police Department in Detroit. While off-duty I saw and interrupted a brutal strong arm robbery of an elderly man. After the fight and arrest, I held the suspect at gunpoint until DPD could get there and transport the badguy for me.
Later at the station, one of the Detroit Officers cornered me and asked if I always carried my gun like that? I was carring a Browning Hi-Power (with OEM mag safety) cocked and locked. Thinking he was pointing to that condition of my gun, I said yes and continued on. So did he. I looked at my Hi-Power and was shocked to note that during the struggle with the badguy, my mag had somehow fallen out rendering my gun useless should I have needed it for anything else than a sap or a paper weight. After retreating to the bathroom for privacy and after some deep breathes, I reloaded with my spare mag and felt lucky that I had resolved the incident without needing to fire.
Over time it has become just another funny story about something that happened a long long time ago. Probably wasn't that funny then and it is a lot less funny and interesting now, but it does illustrate a point.
Since then I have had numerous pistols with and without the mag safety. For me, in spite of the above, it is neither here nor there?
However, my best advise is make a decision. If you decide you don't want a pistol with the mag safety, you will be far better off chosing another pistol rather than disabling a safety device on one that the manufacturer has installed as OEM.
However, we are all members, in good standing of the Big Boys and Girls Club and we ride out our decisions both good and bad.
So there you are, a story and a thought as promised.
Oh! Almost forgot. The good thing about advise, it that it is free and you don't have to take it. Good luck!
Back in the mid 70's I worked for a University Police Department in Detroit. While off-duty I saw and interrupted a brutal strong arm robbery of an elderly man. After the fight and arrest, I held the suspect at gunpoint until DPD could get there and transport the badguy for me.
Later at the station, one of the Detroit Officers cornered me and asked if I always carried my gun like that? I was carring a Browning Hi-Power (with OEM mag safety) cocked and locked. Thinking he was pointing to that condition of my gun, I said yes and continued on. So did he. I looked at my Hi-Power and was shocked to note that during the struggle with the badguy, my mag had somehow fallen out rendering my gun useless should I have needed it for anything else than a sap or a paper weight. After retreating to the bathroom for privacy and after some deep breathes, I reloaded with my spare mag and felt lucky that I had resolved the incident without needing to fire.
Over time it has become just another funny story about something that happened a long long time ago. Probably wasn't that funny then and it is a lot less funny and interesting now, but it does illustrate a point.
Since then I have had numerous pistols with and without the mag safety. For me, in spite of the above, it is neither here nor there?
However, my best advise is make a decision. If you decide you don't want a pistol with the mag safety, you will be far better off chosing another pistol rather than disabling a safety device on one that the manufacturer has installed as OEM.
However, we are all members, in good standing of the Big Boys and Girls Club and we ride out our decisions both good and bad.
So there you are, a story and a thought as promised.
Oh! Almost forgot. The good thing about advise, it that it is free and you don't have to take it. Good luck!
I would think that the average CCW holder is not in the same position even once. I've never been in a situation where I needed to use my gun...and I fervently pray that I never am. That doesn't negate the need for training and preparation, of course.
I recently bought a Ruger SR9c and removed the magazine disconnect from it. I did so because it literally fell out when I removed the striker for cleaning, but mainly because there is a serious issue with damage to the striker in this pistol if it is dry fired without a magazine in place. (I also have a Ruger LC9, and without the magazine in place, the trigger is locked, so the damage potential is negated...and I didn't remove the magazine disconnect from that pistol.) I haven't and won't remove it from any other pistol I own as long as there is no potential damage to the striker/firing pin with dry firing. However, all my other pistols will fire without the magazine in place, so it's a moot point.
I chuckled when I read the thought that without a magazine someone who steals the gun cannot use it and the mags are special order.... Ha ha ha...
An M&P can be fired just fine with no mag and a mag safety. Of course you'll only fire the one in the pipe, but thinking the gun is completely unusable is pretty naive. All that is required is the mag safety lever be moved up. Obviously a guy that steals your gun can easily push the lever up with a pencil, a paint stir stick, even a sponge pushed in the mag well will immediately disable the mag safety. I've done it. Look at yours.
I disconnected the one on my .40. Why? I bought the gun for the ability to make loud noises when I pull the trigger. If the mag pops out 1/2" it would cease making loud noises. So let's say I pull the gun and I accidently drop the mag in the grass at night as a BG is attacking me? Or has anyone heard of M&P's dropping mags on their own? Seems like several fellas here have had it happen. Or maybe you are in a struggle and the mag button gets pressed and you want to shoot and can't.
My M&P9 doesn't have one from the factory, and my .40 doesn't have one from my kitchen table. If I want one I can put one in either gun, until then I like being in control of when I can shoot.
An M&P can be fired just fine with no mag and a mag safety. Of course you'll only fire the one in the pipe, but thinking the gun is completely unusable is pretty naive. All that is required is the mag safety lever be moved up. Obviously a guy that steals your gun can easily push the lever up with a pencil, a paint stir stick, even a sponge pushed in the mag well will immediately disable the mag safety. I've done it. Look at yours.
I disconnected the one on my .40. Why? I bought the gun for the ability to make loud noises when I pull the trigger. If the mag pops out 1/2" it would cease making loud noises. So let's say I pull the gun and I accidently drop the mag in the grass at night as a BG is attacking me? Or has anyone heard of M&P's dropping mags on their own? Seems like several fellas here have had it happen. Or maybe you are in a struggle and the mag button gets pressed and you want to shoot and can't.
My M&P9 doesn't have one from the factory, and my .40 doesn't have one from my kitchen table. If I want one I can put one in either gun, until then I like being in control of when I can shoot.
Silversmok3
Member
Good to know.Not for me because Im not buying an M&P, but someone might benefit from that post.
The only time I have ever dropped a magazine is when I intended to. Why is it that a shooter can be disciplined enough to not touch the trigger by accident under stress; but hitting the mag release negligently is somehow inevitable?
And if a man is so stressed out that he is functionally incapable of controlling whether he hits the magazine release then it seems I have no worries about a felon accurately shooting the one round in my 459 while simultaneously holding a pencil against the disconnect block up the magwell.
kbm6893
Member
Good to know.Not for me because Im not buying an M&P, but someone might benefit from that post.
The only time I have ever dropped a magazine is when I intended to. Why is it that a shooter can be disciplined enough to not touch the trigger by accident under stress; but hitting the mag release negligently is somehow inevitable?
And if a man is so stressed out that he is functionally incapable of controlling whether he hits the magazine release then it seems I have no worries about a felon accurately shooting the one round in my 459 while simultaneously holding a pencil against the disconnect block up the magwell.
Perfect response. Somehow, a man should be so well trained that he will not touch the trigger on a Glock, but so poorly trained that he might drop the magazine. And accidentally dropping the mag or engaging a manual safety is something that I have NEVER done, and I got in and out of a police car, and rolled with quite a few perps. Sorry, but the whole "mag disconnects can ge me killed" argument is mall ninja hype.
If mag safeties are so unbelievably wonderful then we all should have them on every gun.
How in the world did Glock ever sell one gun without one? They are idiots! Mag safeties are the greatest thing ever! I wonder why S&W even offers their guns both ways. Stupid stupid stupid. Obviously having a mag safety is never EVER going to be a problem, but sure could save the life of a good guy if he's in a struggle for his weapon and sees he will lose it to the BG, he can easily find the mag release button, clear the bottom of teh grip, push the mag release and have the mag drop to render the gun useless, thus sparing his own life and probably hundreds of others that would eventually get shot when the BG reloaded once he was dead.
My comment about the pencil bypassing the mag safety was directed to the poster that claimed he took his mag out before turning in a weapon to security, thereby rendering it completely useless until a BG could special order a new mag from S&W, which are on backorder anyway....
Yes in 10 seconds I could put a pencil in the grip, tape it down and have a functioning single shot pistol. In 20 seconds I could strip the gun and bend the mag safety to render it useless. In two minutes I could remove the mag safety completely.
kbm6893
Member
If mag safeties are so unbelievably wonderful then we all should have them on every gun.
How in the world did Glock ever sell one gun without one? They are idiots! Mag safeties are the greatest thing ever! I wonder why S&W even offers their guns both ways. Stupid stupid stupid. Obviously having a mag safety is never EVER going to be a problem, but sure could save the life of a good guy if he's in a struggle for his weapon and sees he will lose it to the BG, he can easily find the mag release button, clear the bottom of teh grip, push the mag release and have the mag drop to render the gun useless, thus sparing his own life and probably hundreds of others that would eventually get shot when the BG reloaded once he was dead.
My comment about the pencil bypassing the mag safety was directed to the poster that claimed he took his mag out before turning in a weapon to security, thereby rendering it completely useless until a BG could special order a new mag from S&W, which are on backorder anyway....
Yes in 10 seconds I could put a pencil in the grip, tape it down and have a functioning single shot pistol. In 20 seconds I could strip the gun and bend the mag safety to render it useless. In two minutes I could remove the mag safety completely.
Glock sells guns because they make a decent product (certainly not "perfection") and they are cheap. PD's went to them because they are even cheaper for them to buy than for a regular civilian, and because they don't want to be "bothered" to train their officers on proper gun handling. We did one week in the academy on the range. That's it. And I just find it so amusing that some people are so vehemently against them because of some perceived threat that is so small, that nobody has even been able to find ONE instance where the presence of a mag disconnect got somebody hurt or killed, or even somebody ACTUALLY performing a tactical reload under fire, yet when confronted with ACTUAL cases of the disconnect saving lives (both in a struggle for a weapon, AND for when somebody not properly trained in handgun use that actually thinks the gun is unloaded when the mag is out, ESPECIALLY children who get to their parent's gun), they shrug it off.
It's simple:
the odds of getting involved in a self defense shooting are astronomical.
The odds of having the training (and I don't mean a weekend at Blackwater or a subscription to SWAT magazine) and the presence of mind to not only think of doing a tactical reload under fire, BUT having the abilty to do one under stress are even smaller.
The odds of needing that ONE shot in the 1.5 seconds DURING that perfectly executed tactical reload are even smaller.
The odds of that ONE shot you just fired even IF you managed to pull off that reload actually ending the fight are even smaller, AND you now have an empty gun, with the slide NOT locked back, requiring you to reload with BOTH hands, and an enraged wounded perp bearing down on you (even IF you managed to hit him)
If you compete, I get the aversion to them. If you don't, and REALLY think they're a liabilty, you're living in Fantasyland.
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scootle
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I agree... I challenge any die-hard proponent of no-mag safety to find any documented reference to a case of a true real-life, live-fire tactical reload happening where the round in the chamber came into play...
Also be aware that guns fired without a magazine also run the risk of ejecting the round downwards into the magwell, which can lead to other "'bad things."
Just FYI, even with the mag safety, I've had occasions where my magazine was not fully seated (my fault) where I fire the remaining round in the chamber and then *click* failure to feed on the next round. Tap rack bang. The mag safety really doesn't play at all in situations where the magazine only partially unseats (which is the majority of situations for typical users, I think.
Also be aware that guns fired without a magazine also run the risk of ejecting the round downwards into the magwell, which can lead to other "'bad things."
Just FYI, even with the mag safety, I've had occasions where my magazine was not fully seated (my fault) where I fire the remaining round in the chamber and then *click* failure to feed on the next round. Tap rack bang. The mag safety really doesn't play at all in situations where the magazine only partially unseats (which is the majority of situations for typical users, I think.
Silversmok3
Member
Come to think of it most semi autos fired without the magazine will either stovepipe or eject the casing out of the magwell.Hickok45 has an excellent youtube video on several Glock models that do just that.From personal experience my non-mag disconnect equipped carry gun stovepipe ONLY if fired without the mag in place.The magazine ensures proper ejection of the spent casing.
Try to wrap your mind around what I say and forget about tactical reloads. I couldn't care less about tactical reloads.
On a mag safety gun:
If you are struggling for control of a weapon and you touch the mag release.. You have an inop weapon.
If you reach for your concealed weapon and you touch the mag release.... You have an inop weapon.
If you realize you have few rounds left and drop your mag and then drop your new mag, until you get that mag.... you have an inop weapon.
If there is a shell in the chamber and I pull the trigger guess what I want to happen? Meanwhile you guys can come up with all kinds of goofy scenarios why you DON'T want the gun to fire when there is a shell in the chamber and you are pulling the trigger.
For those of you, I think you should have mag safeties. And you should have magnetic disconnects and a matching ring you must wear. And you should have a grip safety. And a thumb safety. And a plug in the barrel that has to be removed first. And a locked holster to keep the gun in. And a key code on the slide. And you should keep the shells at least 200 yards from the gun at all times.
No military weapon in the world has a mag safety. Why do you think that is?
And you talk about stove piping a shell without the mag in? So if the choice is either firing the one shot I have to save my life and having the gun stove pipe or having a completely worthless gun with a shell in the chamber... I'll take the stove pipe.
kbm6893
Member
try to wrap your mind around this:
The situations you describe are nearly unheard of.
If you are in a struggle for your weapon, you have a 50% chance of losing that struggle and the bad guy getting your gun. You wanna take the chance of that happening for the one round you MAY fire that MAY hit the guy and MAY end the fight? 98 pound weaklings generally aren't in the habit of strongarm robberies. Most of them will be repeat offenders with prison muscles. You have any idea of handgun ballistics? ever seen what a bullet does to a person? Cuz i can tell you that handgun rounds don't drop you dead right away, unless they're a heart, brain, or spinal cord shot.
Can you find ANY instances of that happening? You have the internet at your disposal. Can't you find ANY? Cause I can find plenty of the mag disconnect saving a life.
Do you have a manual safety on your gun? Or are you one of the "I keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire" crowd? Cause if you rely on your training to not make that mistake and put your finger on that trigger before you're ready to fire, how can you be so nervous that you might accidentally hit the mag release when you don't want to? Why would that scenario even enter your head? Judging from your posts, you seem so sure of yourself. How much training do you really have? I've carried a gun for over 20 years. Holstered and unholstered thousands of times. Conducted felony carstops, gotten in and out of a police car thousands of times, rolled with quite a few people during that time, too. NEVER has my magazine pooped out when I didn't want it to. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the odds of that happening on a modern firearm with a decent holster as being almost nil.
The military doesn't use a mag release gun. So what? They also require a manual safety. before they went to the M9, the 1911 was carried empty chamber, hammer down. Do you approve of that mode of carry? And the Hi-Power is still in use today by a few countries, i believe.
What REAL experience do you have that gives you credibility? Some guys i see at the range are all tacticool as they saunter up with their Glocks in the dropleg holster with the lasers attached, then they can't outshoot me with my old 5906 or model 19. Talking the talk isn't the same as walking the walk.
The mag safety doesn't make the gun slower or less lethal. You're just as well armed with a gun with one than without one. try turning off Guns and Ammo TV every once in a while.
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missiondude
Member
I say, to each his own when it comes to the mag safety. I dont like them because I shoot competetively and have to unload and show clear at the end of a course of fire. Then just when everything is good and clear, I have to stick a magazine back in the gun to drop the hammer. Mot my idea of good, so I removed them on all my competition guns. For a police officer, it may make sense to have it.
This video is not a good representation of how to shoot to defend your life, but the magazine does fall out of the gun rendering it useless until he puts it back in. Then his lack of training kicks in and he sprays and prays... Fortunately, I dont think anyone (bystanders) was injured.
Armed Convenience Store Manager In Shootout With Robbers - YouTube
This video is not a good representation of how to shoot to defend your life, but the magazine does fall out of the gun rendering it useless until he puts it back in. Then his lack of training kicks in and he sprays and prays... Fortunately, I dont think anyone (bystanders) was injured.
Armed Convenience Store Manager In Shootout With Robbers - YouTube
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pff
Member
Well, as noted, there's the FN HighPower. Of course, the only folks to have used it are:
* Argentina
* Australia
* Bahrain
* Bangladesh
* Barbados
* Belgium
* Belize
* Bermuda
* Bolivia
* Botswana
* Brunei
* Burundi
* Cambodia
* Canada
* Chad
* Chile
* Republic of China
* Colombia
* Cuba
* Cyprus
* Democratic Republic of Congo
* Denmark
* Dominican Republic
* Ecuador
* El Salvador
* Estonia
* Finland
* Ghana
* Greece
* Guatemala
* Honduras
* Hungary
* India
* Indonesia
* Iraq
* Ireland
* Israel
* Jamaica
* Jordan
* Kenya
* Kuwait
* Lebanon
* Liberia
* Libya
* Lithuania
* Luxembourg
* Malawi
* Malaysia
* Mozambique
* Myanmar
* Nazi Germany
* Nepal
* Netherlands
* Nigeria
* Oman
* Panama
* Papua New Guinea
* Paraguay
* Peru
* Philippines
* Poland
* Portugal
* Rhodesia
* Romania
* Rwanda
* Saudi Arabia
* Sierra Leone
* Singapore
* Sri Lanka
* Sudan
* Suriname
* Syria
* Tanzania
* Togo
* Trinidad and Tobago
* Tunisia
* Uganda
* United Arab Emirates
* United Kingdom
* United States
* Uruguay
* Venezuela
* Zimbabwe
Prolly a few more I can't recall offhand. Not to mention police users worldwide.
Regards,
Pat
kbm6893
Member
Looks like the clerk might have dropped the mag during the struggle (intentionally or not), then maybe fired the one shot he had, then having to reload with two hands. He had to rack the slide, so either he fired the one shot, or the gun was not chambered to begin with. Maybe firing that one shot gave him some breathing room, but even if he did hit one of them, there were two robbers. And this guy obviously doesn't know what he is doing with a gun, and (I suspect) MANY gun owners do not, either. Honestly, he would have been better served with carrying a second gun.
The pros of the magazine safety, IMO, are that it is a kill switch in the event of a gun grab - and in situations where your pistol has to be taken off your person, lock box at the jail, trunk of the car, ect.
Mas Ayoob has written about many officers whos lives were saved by the magazine safety in their pistol. When the officers felt control of their handgun slipping away in tussels with felons, they simply hit the mag release and rendered their primary handgun into a paperweight.......while cancelling the felons ticket with their BUG. I love a happy ending.
The only two cons I've heard of, mostly from "tactical" types, is that it somehow effects trigger pull - it does in the Browning High power but not on any S&W I've ever shot - and that it precludes firing the round in the tube while changing mags.
Those that proclaim mag safeties "precludes firing the round in the tube" don't know how to operate a S&W 3rd generation pistol. By not releasing the trigger all the way forward, after a shot, you can still fire the round in the tube, with no mag inserted, in a S&W 3rd gen pistol equipped with a mag safety.
Something I've never understood is WHY do you need to fire the round in the tube while changing mags? Are you backing away from an advancing attacker and suddenly feel the need to reload? Are you in the middle of a huge empty parking lot with no cover? Why? I think that the folks who protest mag safeties based on the fact that SOME pistols may be incapable of firing the round in the tube during a mag change......should worry more about their training and tactics, IMO.
I have mag safeties in all my duty guns and several of my off duty semi auto's. I like them and consider them a positive feature. Regards 18DAI
Thread coulda ended after this reply.
yustinus1973
Member
So the lesson Mr. Needham learned from that incident was he will never ever have pistol with a mag safety. Wow well no offence to Mr. Needham, the lesson i would have hopefully learned from that incident was i really need to practice properly seating my mags more, not make a judgement call on a type of pistol, thats just me though. My personal take on not being able to fire the last round in the chamber during a reload in a pistol with a mag safety argument, is this; who says that being able to fire that last round in the chamber during a reload is going to be enough to stop the attacker no one can guarantee that. Especialy if your attacker is all hopped up on guff balls, wich is more common than most people think, then it does not matter what caliber your pistol is chamberd in, only how many rounds it takes before they are no longer a threat. Or maby you rush the shot and just nick the attacker or miss them all together, but ha none of us would ever rush a shot, or ever miss would we. You never know, strange things happen in bad incidents. The point is this, for me at least, i would rather seat my mags properly, and know i have all the ammo i need to dill with the threat, rather that worrie about wether or not my pistol has a mag safety, and can fire the last round in the chamber during a reload. But like i said thats just me.Silversmok3 said:
