Problem Older Gent at Our Club Range

[feralmerril]

My dad had alzheimers. Its very hard to take ahold of things and force them in assisted liveing on a personnal level. Some get mean, some stay gentilmen as my dad did. My dad slept with a s&w 1917. I had to take it from him. My dad was 6ft 5"s and would just walk out of the rest home everyday. The girls that worked there was afraid of him only because of his size. He never was beligerent to them. Once at 89 years old he walked 7 miles in a snow storm to our old house and a neighbor took him back to the rest home. I would first try talking to a son, and if he doesnt have one you about have to get the police involved, sad to say.

 

[wintermute]

... had gone to a local gun shop,purchased a handgun,returned to his room,locked himself in his bathroom and proceeded to commit suicide with his newly purchased weapon.He was in his late seventies and in the early stages of alzheimers.According to her he was a sweet old guy and never gave a hint of doing this.The gentleman mentioned in this post has definitely telegraphed his intentions.Hopefully something will be done before it turns to tragedy.

The only sense in which this was a tragedy was for those who had to dispose of his body. If he was indeed aware of being in the early stages of progressive dementia, he made a rational choice to end his life while he was still capable of doing so, avoiding an extended, dependent, terminal illness.

 

[cmort666]

My dad had alzheimers. Its very hard to take ahold of things and force them in assisted liveing on a personnal level. Some get mean, some stay gentilmen as my dad did. My dad slept with a s&w 1917. I had to take it from him. My dad was 6ft 5"s and would just walk out of the rest home everyday. The girls that worked there was afraid of him only because of his size. He never was beligerent to them. Once at 89 years old he walked 7 miles in a snow storm to our old house and a neighbor took him back to the rest home. I would first try talking to a son, and if he doesnt have one you about have to get the police involved, sad to say.

My aunt in Chicago is rapidly declining due to Alzheimer's.

A few years ago, she started getting lost on the way to the store, then she started disappearing. They once found her covered with mud in a field adjacent to the highway near Hammond, Indiana. My cousin kept trying to take her car keys away, but it always resulted in a verbal conflict. Finally, she was involved in an accident which caused no injuries but totaled the car. That fortunately solved the driving problem. Eventually, she couldn't be trusted to take her various non-Alzheimer's related medications and ended up in the hospital. She went from the hospital to the nursing home and has never returned. My cousin eventually sold her house. She just got out of the hospital after over a month with pneumonia. She's on a ventilator and will probably stay on it til she dies.

One of the first things that happened was that her former boyfriend (a retired Chicago cop) recovered the handgun he'd given her years ago because she was belligerent and irrational. That's what needs to happen to the man in this situation. Assuming that the facts have been accurately described, he's a danger to himself and others.

If somebody doesn't intervene (preferably his family) either he's going to get hurt or somebody else is going to get hurt, possibly trying NOT to hurt HIM.

Personally, I wouldn't go to that range until the problem has been effectively dealt with. I've completely shunned a local range for far LESS serious safety infractions which didn't involve direct threats of violence.

 

[feralmerril]

Most christians and probley other faiths dont belive in suicide, even if it makes sense to the non beliver.

 

[LVSteve]

From what I read here it seems the family "don't want to hear it". I see little alternative but to involve law enforcement. Yes, I know that does not sit well with some who still have the "keep it in the family" thing going on, but clearly the family cannot or will not help. Get it done before he comes up against somebody in the range with the attitude that the first time you point a gun at them is also the last.

I gather from your location that the region is rural. That may also explain the hands off attitude you seem to be getting from the local PD. If all else fails, you may have to embarrass them into action via the local media. Distasteful? Yes, but it is better than somebody getting killed and your range closed in the following hand wringing.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Most christians and probley other faiths dont belive in suicide, even if it makes sense to the non beliver.

I've been involved in more suicides than I care to remember. For me it's not important what I believe or don't. Or whether I believe what they did was right or wrong. I won't judge but simply ask God for His mercy and that the person find the peace they couldn't here on earth. I try not the throw the first stone, and ask forgiveness for the times I have.

 

[giddyupsut]

Don't involve the man's family.
Do everything legally possible.
Cover your [[CREATIVE SPELLING NOT ALLOWED http://smith-wessonforum.com/announcements-rules/198081-creative-spelling-explained.html ]] with all of the proper legal paperwork.
Video is your friend.
If you do not and something happens....the family will end up with your shooting club.

 

[2152hq]

The guy needs help for sure, and maybe the family doesn't/can't deal with it? Who know's. Maybe it's easier to have him hang out at the gunclub all day than be at home.
Regardless,,he needs intervention. He must have a Doctor or some history of medical care,,not that you're going to get into that.

You cannot babysit the gunslinger at the club. A tradgedy will happen, then everyone will point the finger at the 'club' and ask 'why did they allow it to happen when a problem was so obvious'.

The club officers (Someone must be in charge) should in the least go to the local L/E and start the process of making a report, making a complaint, ect. about his actions.

An in person visit to the L/E. No phone cal,,no email, no FAX. Go there in person as a group and demand to see someone about the problem.
You don't leave w/o a written report being taken about the situation.
....and you do it now...

Bring witness names, ect so they can followup if needed.
The Club Pres/VP/ ect owe this to their club and members. You take on responsibility when you run for and get a position in an orgnization,,more than free coffee and a parking spot.

L/E will advise what's next. Revoke his membership probably. They will handle the family & referal mental hygene side of it.
They may very well do nothing or stall with it,,or take quick action and get the guy some institutional help.

In the very least you've brought it to their attention,,at their office.
It may sound cold, but when somthing does happen, everyone is going to be looking quickly to be able to point the finger of blame at someone else.
At least you as a club tried with a face to face meeting with local L/E.
Even if they just end up doing referals to social and med agencys,so what,,job accomplished. That's part of their job,,and not yours. They have the resources.
Bottom line, the guy gets help, and no one including him is further endangered.
Just the way I see it.

FWIW,,the old guy could and most likely will be any number of us on this Forum in the not so distant future. Not fun to think of,,but maybe some advanced thoughts on how it should be dealt with.
It's a terrible disease..

 

[ogilvyspecial]

This has been a long time ago, early 70's, but my parents made my Grandfather, actually my step-Grandfather on my Mother's side, move in with us. When I say made, he wanted no part of it and wanted to stay in his own home.

He was in his late 80's and a number of years prior to him moving in with us my parents had taken his car away. He had a narrow driveway with hedges that blocked his view when backing out, over a well-used city sidewalk, onto a fairly busy two lane road. He would just get in his car, fire it up and back right out without bothering to look. How he never hit anybody, or got hit by others, is still hard to believe.

Because he had no wheels we used to take him what he needed and for quite awhile he would just come to the door with his .32 cal Revolver in his hand. He did live in a very rough part of town so the gun wasn't that bad of an idea on his part.

Everything changed, and he came to live with us, when my Dad was delivering some Milk & Bread to him and he opened fire on the door in response to my Dad knocking on it. I was sitting in the car and watched as my Dad side stepped to take cover behind the wall, then sat the Milk & Bread down in front of the door and made a break for the car. My Dad said that after hearing five shots he knew the gun was empty because that's all Mac kept in the cylinder. He was old school and always kept the hammer on an empty chamber.

It was shortly after that he was living with us.......

I have Mac's old revolver and every now & then, when I look at it, I remember the night of that "special delivery."

 

[cmort666]

Don't involve the man's family.

I suppose that it depends upon what your fundamental goal is.

Mine would be to ensure that members could use the range without interference or danger to their persons. If that could be achieved by his family disarming (and if necessary, institutionalizing) him, that would be good enough for me.

I see having him arrested and possibly prosecuted as a possible means to that end, not an end in itself.

 

[gunfish]

Speak to the officers of your club. I am an officer of a conservation club with trap, rifle, pistol, archery, and fishing in the river. If your club has officers, they will be legally responsible in the insurance company's veiw. We pay a few thou every year for liability insurance. If you have no officers and no one is "in charge", then you in a tough spot. If this were to happen at our range, it would be dealt with.

 

[cmort666]

Speak to the officers of your club. I am an officer of a conservation club with trap, rifle, pistol, archery, and fishing in the river. If your club has officers, they will be legally responsible in the insurance company's veiw. We pay a few thou every year for liability insurance. If you have no officers and no one is "in charge", then you in a tough spot. If this were to happen at our range, it would be dealt with.

As would it at ours.

A few years ago, we had a doctor join the club. One night he showed up and began acting strangely, even dropping his firearm on the range. One of the range officers approached him and smelled liquor on his breath.

The range officer disarmed him and sent him home. He then called the board of directors who held an emergency meeting at which they voted to expel the doctor and refund his dues.

Shortly thereafter, there was a news story about a doctor arrested for being passed out drunk by the side of the interstate, with a loaded handgun in the passenger compartment (and no CHL).

We dodged a bullet on that one.

 

[Doug M.]

Not familiar with legal options in your state, but I can tell you that this is a time urgent matter. Several things need to happen at pretty much the same time.

1) The club officers need to be forced to meet and address the club's portion of this ASAP. What they can do is almost certainly terminate his membership and end his lawful ability to be at the property. My guess is it will not keep him away, but will increase leverage.

2) A very good presentation about all that is happening needs to be prepared for your local LE. Involve a shift supervisor. Sometimes the facts of a case like this are not well enough communicated to the field folks for whatever reason (poor explanation to dispatch, poor explanation from dispatch; it doesn't matter). In addition, such cases can be a real pain in the pants to handle, and even if the time resources are there (a growing problem in many places is the need to triage the calls), there can be a temptation to pencil whip something like this.

3) Find and educate the family member(s) most likely to be responsive and responsible. A lot of folks don't want to hear bad news, so you may not be wasting breath only because you had to exhale anyway.

This is a already a sad tragedy, as a man's life fades out in a fog. Addressing this will not be fun. However, that is nothing compared to the tragedy that is easily foreseeable if something effective is not done immediately.

 

[Bob R]

I would sure try to keep the police out of it if he was my Dad or an old member of our club. Around here, there is a very good chance he would end up like Swiss cheese.

I had to look at you location and make sure we didm't live in the same town.

bob

 

[Cooter Brown]

Twice I have seen the results of this situation. A family member seriously injured, and a neighbor fatally shot.

The longer you wait the more dangerous the situation becomes. Everyone that this man has encountered in these events needs to come forward.

I don't know what the law in PA allows for, but supporting depositions from those who have had contact with him while he is armed need to be presented to a judge for a commitment order.

Don't involve the family. As much as you would like to as a sign of being considerate. If they truly recognize what is going on with his mental stability, they would have all ready sought intervention.

Neither the club members or family at this point have the training or ability to help. Only the the law can intervene immediately and prevent a tragedy from occuring.

Alzheimers and dementia are serious mental health issues. People may act rationally one moment, and totally uncontrollable the next. It is a horrible disease and beyond the control of the patient.

I wouldn't wait for the worst to happen. Good luck.

I think all this is spot on.

If the family were seeing things as they really are, or if they do see and had the strength to deal with it, it would not be an issue.

Chances are, there are some in the family who would view an outsider involving the law and outside forces as a blessing. It saves them from having to confront the old man themselves. They may even be hoping for it.

Many people don't have the strength to handle a situation like this in a family, particularly with someone viewed as a patriarch.

Of course the worst thing would be if the family circles the wagons to protect the man.

Given the possibility of one of those scenarios being the case, it'd be best to leave the family out of it and go to the authorities. That negates both those scenarios.

Best of luck with all this, and whatever you do it should be done soon.

 

[joeintexas]

It seems to me you have two problems here, one is to secure the range for everyone's safety and enjoyment the other is to help a fellow human being who is not in his right mind due to this terrible disease. At one time he might have been on this very forum talking about his love for this sport and sharing his knowledge of various firearms. Such a shame. I think your local police need to be involved and informed of his actions, his weapons need removed and he needs professional help and understanding. Hope it works out for you.

 

[G-Mac]

Stuff like this NEVER happens in New York.

 

[Ironhand]

I hope it doesn't take him shooting another member, or being shot by one, to straighten this all out.

 

[LedFowl]

Family and club members that he remembers clearly need to talk to him at his home and stop him somehow before there's trouble. Someone he feels is his better or equal needs to be among them.

 

[Doug M.]

I thought about this some more and realized a possible reason for the lack of timely and useful LE response. He is not merely a "trespasser", assuming that he has in fact been banned from the property in a manner consistent with PA law. That will not get a rapid response, and may not get one at all, depending on call volume and priorities.

What this has to be described as is an armed trespasser with mental problems, likely Alzheimer's, who has threatened persons legitimately present. That will get a response. HOWEVER: such an event has a high potential for (legitimate LE) violence. MH patients are sometimes far enough off the mark that they don't understand who the cops are and what they are doing, and that non-compliance will end badly. The only significant resistance I have encountered in LE has been from mental patients, and for exactly that reason. (Similarly, I have had some struggles with juveniles in court during my seven years as a juvenile court prosecutor in this state. Same sort of problem - they get agitated over what is pretty insignificant and have to be restrained, leading to a carpet therapy session. Only one adult offender presented that sort of problem during that time, and the most of 4 years in felony court since - this is two counties, since 2000.)

LE works on a straight forward path: ask, tell, make. The first two generally won't work with a mental patient, and then it all goes to Hell in a handcart. Add in the specifics of this fellow's behavior, and it is not hard to see a really bad outcome. Unfortunately, that sort of outcome involving a club member is already really easy to foresee, even worse, and completely unacceptable. (And yeah, it would be unfortunate if he ended up as "Swiss cheese", but that would not mean it was not justified. The legal standard is "reasonable" - not perfect, or even correct, when it comes to use of force. The facts as perceived by responding officers are all that matters - this old fellow's many productive years on the planet, and the perceptions of his friends and family have no meaning.)