Problem Older Gent at Our Club Range

steamloco76

steamloco76

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We have a dicey problem at our gun club's outdoor ranges. One of the elder members of the club, he is in his late 70's and has been a member for 40 years, is getting either senile or has Alzheimer's Disease. The club is in the country and his property is adjoining the club. He has taken it upon himself to "police" the range every time he hears shooting on weekdays. He wears a pistol on his side and usually has a lever action rifle with him. Anybody he hasn't known for 50 years, he accosts verbally and demands to see their membership card. Even when members show him their cards, he demands they leave the range because "nobody gave you permission to shoot here!! And thells them they will be arrested if they don't leave NOW!!" Then he cocks the rifle. People leave because they don't want a shooting at the club. Several have not renewed their memberships this year.

He has been to meetings where he was warned about his behavior and has had his keys to the range gate taken. That did not help as he just rides his quad up through the woods instead of driving over. We've tried to have him arrested for trespassing, however police response time for trespassing is an hour or more. The club has over 400 acres, so a chain link fence is fiscally impossible. His family doesn't believe he is a problem. So far nobody has had the stones to just ignore him and stay. I'm afraid if they do, he may shoot them and then there goes our club.

What in the heck do you do in a situation like this???
 
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I think I'd invite the local PD or sheriff out to the range on my dime and see what happens.
 
You say the PD is slow on a trespass, if he has "threatend" anyone, get them to report it and get him flagged as an armed 5150. Next time you call the PD refer to hin as an ARMED trespasser. between that 5150 and armed trespass, they should show up quick.
 
If he's demanding people leave property he has no ownership in, then brandishing his firearm and using it in a threatening demeanor he needs to be put away. Otherwise it sounds like he'll take it too far and get put down.

It sounds like he's still a member himself. That should be removed. Then express that the police will be contacted if he steps foot there again. Inform members that if a crazy old MWAG harasses them, to call the police and inform whoevers working.

Cameras with good audio might be worth looking into. Get a clip of the guy "policing" the place should be enough to keep him away.
 
In my view, the one with the knowledge of what is happening bears the moral responsibility. If it were me, I would continue to do what ever there was to do, otherwise it will be just another case of "what a shame" when what ever happens ultimately happens. Make an issue out of it, otherwise, apathy and political correctness could get someone hurt or killed. I would send certfied letters to range management with return receits on them, as well as the law enforcement agencys.
 
The gentleman is loading a round in his rifle while telling people to leave?

I think the police will definitely show up and take care of the problem mighty fast.
 
He needs to not have those guns anymore. If the family won't do it maybe the local PD can be petitioned to get a mental health warrant and remove the guns from him. His condition will only get worse and the likelyhood of him shooting someone will increase. I really can't believe the local cops aren't responding to this. I hate it when people call in fake gun runs to get us to show up, but this guy is menacing people with a firearm. Don't be shy about calling 911 and saying there is a man with a gun menacing people. I don't think an elderly man with Alzheimers should be getting arrested, but you need to start a paper trail of his behavior. These situations are always sticky, good luck.
 
I've dealt with folks like this and the potential for a disaster is very real. And it's after this happens that everyone asks "what could we have done differently?". The best course of action is to remove all firearms from this persons possession, no matter what you have to do to accomplish it. If he comes to the range to harass people that's another issue but it shouldn't be with a firearm. Someone in an official capacity needs to talk to his relatives, remind them of this and the fact that they could be held civilly liable should he harm someone. Contact as many officials as possible. (And along these lines E-mail can be your best friend. When you E-mail an official, cc everyone else, and I mean everyone. These officials will realize numerous people are aware of the potential disaster and not want their prints all over this if it goes south.) The more people involved the better. And keep a record of everything, copies of E-mails, letters, phone conversations, dates, times, etc. Don't give up on this, the potential for harm is to great.
 
Definitely record it with a camera. Most cell phone videos should be a minimum. Audio would really help too.

When the police show up, that should help out a LOT to demonstrate the problem. Even if the guy has left by then, a recording will prove the case.
 
Mental illness

Howdy,
Watching a family member suffer through this years ago leaves me with the impression that they don't know and wont remember what they do.
How sad. A long time member and shooter.
All the orders of protection wont keep it from happening again.
I hope the family will be able to deal with it.
I hate to see the police called as the old guy is as likely to get shot as a cop.
Is it too far to walk easily? Maybe a little sabotage to the 4-wheeler would help (By the family)
I hope there is a happy ending to all of this and the man is not treated like a criminal. His behavior is criminal but he is just an old, mentally worn out fellow who thinks he is trying to help.
Best of luck
Mike

Here is an addition. I don't know if it would help, but I would think you should make the membership aware of it to the last man. Also, I would give everyone his first name. He may be more relaxed if people greet him by name. He may think they are a forgotten acquaintance and calm down.
Again
Good Luck
Mike
 
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Twice I have seen the results of this situation. A family member seriously injured, and a neighbor fatally shot.

The longer you wait the more dangerous the situation becomes. Everyone that this man has encountered in these events needs to come forward.

I don't know what the law in PA allows for, but supporting depositions from those who have had contact with him while he is armed need to be presented to a judge for a commitment order.

Don't involve the family. As much as you would like to as a sign of being considerate. If they truly recognize what is going on with his mental stability, they would have all ready sought intervention.

Neither the club members or family at this point have the training or ability to help. Only the the law can intervene immediately and prevent a tragedy from occuring.

Alzheimers and dementia are serious mental health issues. People may act rationally one moment, and totally uncontrollable the next. It is a horrible disease and beyond the control of the patient.

I wouldn't wait for the worst to happen. Good luck.
 
I hope this situation gets taken care of soon. We are going to start to see more and more warm days in the next few months... meaning more and more shooters.

The man's family needs to be involved. Others have mentioned getting video of him, either from mounted cameras or cell phones, and showing it to the police. The video could also be shown to his family. They need to know.

If he's living alone, he's going to need assistance. An assisted living facility would be a good option for someone in his state, but obviously his time for gun ownership has passed.

This one hits close to home because, like so many others, I've had to deal with Alzheimer's and Dementia in my family. Both my paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother. My grandfather ended up in an assisted living facility which worked well for him. He had his car and was free to come and go.... for a while.

That stopped when one day he ended up heading south on a northbound highway. He got on the exit ramp and headed straight into oncoming traffic. Somehow, he wound up on the side of the road and nobody was hurt. Luckily someone stopped and waited with him as the cops / ambulance came. That night in the hospital, my father and his siblings made the decision he wasn't going to drive anymore.

Once he was found outside on the grounds of the assisted living facility at night with a flashlight. When security went to talk to him he was frightened and told them to stay away because he had a knife. He didn't, but he didn't know the men or understand who they were. He most likely didn't even know where he was, but at that moment he was being confronted by two men at night and he was understandably afraid.

My grandmother was different. She had been unable to get around very well for years, even before her Alzheimer's started to set in. She lived at home with my uncle. Watching her deteriorate mentally was horrible. It started with small things... forgetting something you talked about a few days earlier, not remembering where certain grand kids were at the time (meaning where they went to school, worked etc). Then it quickly progressed to where her short term memory was getting worse and worse. She's ask you the same question every five minutes. At this point, I could tell she didn't remember my name. I don't think I had heard her call me by my name in the past 2 or more years. I knew she knew I was her grandson, and that was great. She took a sudden turn for the worse this past Thanksgiving, and died in early January. In her last month or so there would be days where she was alert and days you could tell she was in a thick fog.

Very, very sad and heart wrenching disease.
 
mstuhr said:
All the orders of protection wont keep it from happening again.
I hope the family will be able to deal with it.
Click to expand...

True and true. Protective orders are useless pieces of paper. This man is probably not even aware what he is doing is both illegal and extremely dangerous. His kids need to be contacted and they need to handle the situation. I would sure try to keep the police out of it if he was my Dad or an old member of our club. Around here, there is a very good chance he would end up like Swiss cheese.
 
A good friend of mine called me from work about two years ago.She is a cook and server at a local assisted living facility.One of the residents who still had access to his vehicle and could come and go pretty much as he pleased had gone to a local gun shop,purchased a handgun,returned to his room,locked himself in his bathroom and proceeded to commit suicide with his newly purchased weapon.He was in his late seventies and in the early stages of alzheimers.According to her he was a sweet old guy and never gave a hint of doing this.The gentleman mentioned in this post has definitely telegraphed his intentions.Hopefully something will be done before it turns to tragedy.
 
There is a lot of good advice here. I do think that his family is the first step, but if they continue to deny the problem, then the legal system is your only recourse. I don't think jail is the answer for him, but that is the first step towards mental incompetency hearings or may wake up his family to the danger.

Do the laws in PA allow for citizens to swear out arrest warrants? In GA we have procedures that allow citizens to appear in front of a magistrate who hears the facts and determines if probable cause exists. Normally, the judge likes to see that the police already have had some involvement (normally a case number works). The accused has the opportunity to appear to state their side, too. Though seldom used these days, the process was designed for those times that the police couldn't make an arrest, which is what the fundamental system problem seems to be.
 
Getting an order of protection doesn't stop somebody from doing something, but it can make it more difficult. If the order specifies that his firearms be removed from his control, that will definitely LESSEN the likelihood of a fatal confrontation.

His membership needs to be terminated and documentation of is being barred from the property needs to be generated.

Threatening somebody with a firearm without legal justification is a crime, regardless of whether there's an order of protection. The next time he assaults somebody on the property, the police need to be called and FORCED to confront the situation. If they refuse to, then THEY are a problem as well and need to be dealt with. Of course they have no legal liability, but they've got TONS of public exposure if they know there's a problem of this nature and refuse to act.
 
My father had alzheimers and it affects victims in different ways,but the main thing to remember is they are not rational and have no short term memory.You really need to get his family involved and the first thing they need to do is take his guns away before he hurts someone.If they waffle,you need to get the people he has threatened together and talk to the law.After that I would just stay away from the range until the problem is resolved.
 
My dad had alzheimers. Its very hard to take ahold of things and force them in assisted liveing on a personnal level. Some get mean, some stay gentilmen as my dad did. My dad slept with a s&w 1917. I had to take it from him. My dad was 6ft 5"s and would just walk out of the rest home everyday. The girls that worked there was afraid of him only because of his size. He never was beligerent to them. Once at 89 years old he walked 7 miles in a snow storm to our old house and a neighbor took him back to the rest home. I would first try talking to a son, and if he doesnt have one you about have to get the police involved, sad to say.
 
tacreload said:
... had gone to a local gun shop,purchased a handgun,returned to his room,locked himself in his bathroom and proceeded to commit suicide with his newly purchased weapon.He was in his late seventies and in the early stages of alzheimers.According to her he was a sweet old guy and never gave a hint of doing this.The gentleman mentioned in this post has definitely telegraphed his intentions.Hopefully something will be done before it turns to tragedy.
Click to expand...

The only sense in which this was a tragedy was for those who had to dispose of his body. If he was indeed aware of being in the early stages of progressive dementia, he made a rational choice to end his life while he was still capable of doing so, avoiding an extended, dependent, terminal illness.
 
feralmerril said:
My dad had alzheimers. Its very hard to take ahold of things and force them in assisted liveing on a personnal level. Some get mean, some stay gentilmen as my dad did. My dad slept with a s&w 1917. I had to take it from him. My dad was 6ft 5"s and would just walk out of the rest home everyday. The girls that worked there was afraid of him only because of his size. He never was beligerent to them. Once at 89 years old he walked 7 miles in a snow storm to our old house and a neighbor took him back to the rest home. I would first try talking to a son, and if he doesnt have one you about have to get the police involved, sad to say.
Click to expand...
My aunt in Chicago is rapidly declining due to Alzheimer's.

A few years ago, she started getting lost on the way to the store, then she started disappearing. They once found her covered with mud in a field adjacent to the highway near Hammond, Indiana. My cousin kept trying to take her car keys away, but it always resulted in a verbal conflict. Finally, she was involved in an accident which caused no injuries but totaled the car. That fortunately solved the driving problem. Eventually, she couldn't be trusted to take her various non-Alzheimer's related medications and ended up in the hospital. She went from the hospital to the nursing home and has never returned. My cousin eventually sold her house. She just got out of the hospital after over a month with pneumonia. She's on a ventilator and will probably stay on it til she dies.

One of the first things that happened was that her former boyfriend (a retired Chicago cop) recovered the handgun he'd given her years ago because she was belligerent and irrational. That's what needs to happen to the man in this situation. Assuming that the facts have been accurately described, he's a danger to himself and others.

If somebody doesn't intervene (preferably his family) either he's going to get hurt or somebody else is going to get hurt, possibly trying NOT to hurt HIM.

Personally, I wouldn't go to that range until the problem has been effectively dealt with. I've completely shunned a local range for far LESS serious safety infractions which didn't involve direct threats of violence.
 
From what I read here it seems the family "don't want to hear it". I see little alternative but to involve law enforcement. Yes, I know that does not sit well with some who still have the "keep it in the family" thing going on, but clearly the family cannot or will not help. Get it done before he comes up against somebody in the range with the attitude that the first time you point a gun at them is also the last.

I gather from your location that the region is rural. That may also explain the hands off attitude you seem to be getting from the local PD. If all else fails, you may have to embarrass them into action via the local media. Distasteful? Yes, but it is better than somebody getting killed and your range closed in the following hand wringing.
 
feralmerril said:
Most christians and probley other faiths dont belive in suicide, even if it makes sense to the non beliver.
Click to expand...

I've been involved in more suicides than I care to remember. For me it's not important what I believe or don't. Or whether I believe what they did was right or wrong. I won't judge but simply ask God for His mercy and that the person find the peace they couldn't here on earth. I try not the throw the first stone, and ask forgiveness for the times I have.
 
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The guy needs help for sure, and maybe the family doesn't/can't deal with it? Who know's. Maybe it's easier to have him hang out at the gunclub all day than be at home.
Regardless,,he needs intervention. He must have a Doctor or some history of medical care,,not that you're going to get into that.

You cannot babysit the gunslinger at the club. A tradgedy will happen, then everyone will point the finger at the 'club' and ask 'why did they allow it to happen when a problem was so obvious'.

The club officers (Someone must be in charge) should in the least go to the local L/E and start the process of making a report, making a complaint, ect. about his actions.

An in person visit to the L/E. No phone cal,,no email, no FAX. Go there in person as a group and demand to see someone about the problem.
You don't leave w/o a written report being taken about the situation.
....and you do it now...

Bring witness names, ect so they can followup if needed.
The Club Pres/VP/ ect owe this to their club and members. You take on responsibility when you run for and get a position in an orgnization,,more than free coffee and a parking spot.

L/E will advise what's next. Revoke his membership probably. They will handle the family & referal mental hygene side of it.
They may very well do nothing or stall with it,,or take quick action and get the guy some institutional help.

In the very least you've brought it to their attention,,at their office.
It may sound cold, but when somthing does happen, everyone is going to be looking quickly to be able to point the finger of blame at someone else.
At least you as a club tried with a face to face meeting with local L/E.
Even if they just end up doing referals to social and med agencys,so what,,job accomplished. That's part of their job,,and not yours. They have the resources.
Bottom line, the guy gets help, and no one including him is further endangered.
Just the way I see it.

FWIW,,the old guy could and most likely will be any number of us on this Forum in the not so distant future. Not fun to think of,,but maybe some advanced thoughts on how it should be dealt with.
It's a terrible disease..
 
This has been a long time ago, early 70's, but my parents made my Grandfather, actually my step-Grandfather on my Mother's side, move in with us. When I say made, he wanted no part of it and wanted to stay in his own home.

He was in his late 80's and a number of years prior to him moving in with us my parents had taken his car away. He had a narrow driveway with hedges that blocked his view when backing out, over a well-used city sidewalk, onto a fairly busy two lane road. He would just get in his car, fire it up and back right out without bothering to look. How he never hit anybody, or got hit by others, is still hard to believe.

Because he had no wheels we used to take him what he needed and for quite awhile he would just come to the door with his .32 cal Revolver in his hand. He did live in a very rough part of town so the gun wasn't that bad of an idea on his part.

Everything changed, and he came to live with us, when my Dad was delivering some Milk & Bread to him and he opened fire on the door in response to my Dad knocking on it. I was sitting in the car and watched as my Dad side stepped to take cover behind the wall, then sat the Milk & Bread down in front of the door and made a break for the car. My Dad said that after hearing five shots he knew the gun was empty because that's all Mac kept in the cylinder. He was old school and always kept the hammer on an empty chamber.

It was shortly after that he was living with us.......

I have Mac's old revolver and every now & then, when I look at it, I remember the night of that "special delivery."
 
giddyupsut said:
Don't involve the man's family.
Click to expand...
I suppose that it depends upon what your fundamental goal is.

Mine would be to ensure that members could use the range without interference or danger to their persons. If that could be achieved by his family disarming (and if necessary, institutionalizing) him, that would be good enough for me.

I see having him arrested and possibly prosecuted as a possible means to that end, not an end in itself.
 
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