About Smith and Wesson Quality Control

[GaryS]

I was part of a large group that went on a factory tour today. I've gone before, but every tour is different because they use different people as guides.

All of the guides are retired S&W employees who come back to do just the tours. All are experienced employees, most of them worked on the factory floor.

S&W tends to keep employees for a long time because it's a good place to work. Wish I knew that 30 years ago! Which, by the way is the average tenure of employees there.

Anyway, our guide was the best that I've encountered there and was a wealth of information. I got to see stuff and hear insights into how guns are made that I've never seen or heard before.

One of the things he mentioned might bear upon some of the comments about uneven quality coming out of the factory of late. Take it for what it's worth, but that was my first thought on hearing this,

For the longest time fitter/assemblers were responsible for putting together an entire firearm. They would get a number of frames and the same number of parts. The fitter would put in all of the parts, test for function (non firing) and then send the firearm to the range for test firing. There was a lot of pride in making a good firearm, a lot of ownership in the quality of the product. Each gun was hand fitted by one person, so if there was a problem, it was easy to track.

A few years ago, after our guide retired, S&W changed how they did assembly. It was patterned after an automobile assembly line. Each person was responsible for putting one part, the same part, in each firearm. At the end of the line the firearm is tested for function and then sent to the range.

It seems to me that this might be why some of the fit and finish isn't as good as it used to be.

Just my guess, so take it for what it's worth.

One thing I will say is that they do reject a lot of parts before they get put into a gun. Their standards for parts manufacture are very high.

While there are a lot of disadvantages to living in MA, being able to go to S&W for the tour is one of the advantages.

 

[jkc]

In my teens, I briefly worked on the Lansing, MI, Oldsmobile plant final assembly line, where, as you've described, each worker was assigned a specific and fairly simple task, bolting or screwing or placing or fitting some particular part, (all this to be done as the frame/chassis/body was racing past your work-station at a pace allowing just a few seconds to perform your task, so that if the conveyor moved on and your task was not successfully completed, as was often the case, the car was sent to be "fixed" after it came to the end of the assembly line. This was the rule, rather than the exception.)

So, if this is an example, no single worker has "ownership" of the quality of the end product, no individual/personal responsibility for quality, and also no control over the end quality of the product, and not much concern about being accountable for their performance. This is why people used to be willing to pay premium prices for hand-fitted Colt Python's, and why now they pay cheaper prices for mass-produced Glock's, and why S&W has failed to find the middle ground, happy medium.

 

[GaryS]

The guy that I rode out with and I had a discussion about this. We both mentioned how a lot of the quality "foreign" auto makers use groups who are responsible for building a single car at a time, instead of the assembly line where each worker puts on a specific part.

Those foreign brands, even the ones built in the USA, have a better reputation for quality than the American brands.

It seems strange to me that S&W would go from a system that worked to one that doesn't work as well.

Someone's Kaizen needs to be sent back to the tool room for recalibration.

In my teens, I briefly worked on the Lansing, MI, Oldsmobile plant final assembly line, where, as you've described, each worker was assigned a specific and fairly simple task, bolting or screwing or placing or fitting some particular part, (all this to be done as the frame/chassis/body was racing past your work-station at a pace allowing just a few seconds to perform your task, so that if the conveyor moved on and your task was not successfully completed, as was often the case, the car was sent to be "fixed" after it came to the end of the assembly line. This was the rule, rather than the exception.)

So, if this is an example, no single worker has "ownership" of the quality of the end product, no individual/personal responsibility for quality, and also no control over the end quality of the product, and not much concern about being accountable for their performance. This is why people used to be willing to pay premium prices for hand-fitted Colt Python's, and why now they pay cheaper prices for mass-produced Glock's, and why S&W has failed to find the middle ground, happy medium.

 

[blujax01]

...We both mentioned how a lot of the quality "foreign" auto makers use groups who are responsible for building a single car at a time, instead of the assembly line where each worker puts on a specific part.

Those foreign brands, even the ones built in the USA, have a better reputation for quality than the American brands.

....

I don't suppose pointing out that your concept of auto assembly is wrong would do anything but inflame you, so I won't.

Or that American cars have had an equal if not better record for quality than the foreign makes going on a decade now.

That's okay, the 80's and 90's did much to ruin Detroit's reputation. Maybe your children will give them a fair shake.

 

[GaryS]

You're right, it wouldn't. The only US based manufacturer that has any reputation for quality is Ford.

The reason people won't give them a break is because they spent 30 or so years, more than just the 80s and 90s, building cars that fell apart quickly while the foreign based manufacturers built better quality cars and now trucks.

I don't suppose pointing out that your concept of auto assembly is wrong would do anything but inflame you, so I won't.

Or that American cars have had an equal if not better record for quality than the foreign makes going on a decade now.

That's okay, the 80's and 90's did much to ruin Detroit's reputation. Maybe your children will give them a fair shake.

 

[Moonman]

Industry is constantly looking for FASTER AND CHEAPER, look at the use of Robotics. The cycle never stops, "Kaizen" and "THE Toyota Production System" are in a way really Henry Fords system of mass production RENAMED. Small, incremental changes add up over time. Henry gave you choices of color, ANY, as long as it was BLACK. The Kanban system of WHAT to produce did so without computers and is still in use in businesses. The goal was faster and cheaper while eliminating waste, of which the cost of OVERPRODUCTION is one.

The American marketplace for sure deals on PRICE. WAL-MART has become the largest employer, retailer in the world regardless of your opinion of them. PRICES RULE, and almost everything sold there is Chinese produced. Most manufactured goods are now Chinese produced. The reason for that is the production PRICE.

Some people involved in PRODUCTION CONTROL have two prices they refer to in manufacturing quality control "Chinese Price" and "American Price" The American price of components is higher but easier to control quality and delivery because of the Distances, Language, Common Understandings, involved. The items final cost is higher though.

Small markets do exist for Handmade truly Quality products, unfortunately the price of them are out of the reach of most people, look at watches and not Chrystal Quartz based ones either.

Computers, CNC equipment, Lasers, and Robotics have given us an Affordable, Quality product that would impress any craftsman and with much improved speed. Parts that are basically EXACT DUPLICATES and INTERCHANGEABLE period.

Many more people own Remington or Winchester shotguns, than Holland-Holland Side by Sides. You can own either, let your wallet and desires decide.

I'm just glad to be enjoying the benefit of modern production techniques as they allow me to possess a few fine fitting and shooting firearms.

JMHO.

 

[wheelgun28]

I learned an interesting tid-bit.

Back in the day the hard fitter after stamping his mark was responsible for the workmanship. Any repairs would to have been done on his OWN time and expense!!!

Think about that in todays world..

 

[Vom Brunhaus K9]

I have model 28 N frame. Just bought and took to range. Noticed a cylinder line developed losing some of the blueing. My model 10 does not show this wear or heavy line on its cylinder. Any ideas ?

 

[quneur]

I live near the Everett WA Boeing Plant which is home to the 787 line. I have many friends that work there in differing capacities; engineers, machinists, quality control, mechanics, etc. Some of the stuff coming up in discussion can be alarming.

One friend who's job was liaison supervisor between outsourced manufacturers voluntarily moved position due to implementation of a production method. As an engineer, his work was to coordinated between various parts manufacturers and if a problem arose; would spend however amount of hours to correct the problem. The new method did not allow for this. In this method, a person was allowed only to do a specific task in an allotted amount of time. If it wasn't finished, it was noted and passed on. A new supervisor was hired to enforce this; hence, a lot of mistakes were noted but not acted upon. It frustrated my friend to no end and he finally transferred to another position.

Another friend was hired as a mechanic has just finish his training session. He was in a massive group of mechanics which Boeing recently hired (on the order of 100's). His job is to work on a fleet of 787 that are lined up in Paine Field which were returned with problems.

When they designed the new production line for the 787 it looked good on paper, supposedly saving millions in production cost but didn't turn out as planned. Two years late for the first plane to roll off the line. Massive amount of problems and planes returned.

 

[thndrchiken]

I work for a major European high end appliance manufacturer. I can tell you straight up that over the last 5 years with all the streamlining in production that the price of the end product has not dropped and the service related issues have just about doubled. It's frustrating as hell working tech support for a company who's reputation is for a quality product and having customer's constantly complain that they wasted their money.

What's even more frustrating is that management only cares about how many units are going out the door and worry about fixing them on the back end.

 

[Andy Griffith]

S&W turned out some real junk in the 70's, and some of it can still be found today- that's when, like today, they couldn't keep up with demand and had to cut costs and increase production to increase profit for their parent company. Of course, those parent companies bled it dry- evening taking the Remington paintings out of the offices.

 

[Moonman]

Management does some stupid things, look at what junk autos they put the name Cadillac on in the 80's.

 

[forresth]

Management does some stupid things, look at what junk autos they put the name Cadillac on in the 80's.

Are you bad mouthing the Cimarron?

 

[Armyphotog]

This thread sorta got side tracked. But, while it's on the siding, I was raised poor and the idea that if a car didn't give trouble, you kept it. It was a "good" car. So, far, the only car I have ever kept, and still drive, is a 1986 GMC Surburban with a Detroit Diesel engine in it. Put an antique tag on it this year.

 

[StatesRightist]

You're right, it wouldn't. The only US based manufacturer that has any reputation for quality is Ford.

The reason people won't give them a break is because they spent 30 or so years, more than just the 80s and 90s, building cars that fell apart quickly while the foreign based manufacturers built better quality cars and now trucks.

Two words.....Chevy Volt.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Industry is constantly looking for FASTER AND CHEAPER, look at the use of Robotics. The cycle never stops, "Kaizen" and "THE Toyota Production System" are in a way really Henry Fords system of mass production RENAMED. Small, incremental changes add up over time. Henry gave you choices of color, ANY, as long as it was BLACK. The Kanban system of WHAT to produce did so without computers and is still in use in businesses. The goal was faster and cheaper while eliminating waste, of which the cost of OVERPRODUCTION is one.

The American marketplace for sure deals on PRICE. WAL-MART has become the largest employer, retailer in the world regardless of your opinion of them. PRICES RULE, and almost everything sold there is Chinese produced. Most manufactured goods are now Chinese produced. The reason for that is the production PRICE.

Some people involved in PRODUCTION CONTROL have two prices they refer to in manufacturing quality control "Chinese Price" and "American Price" The American price of components is higher but easier to control quality and delivery because of the Distances, Language, Common Understandings, involved. The items final cost is higher though.

Small markets do exist for Handmade truly Quality products, unfortunately the price of them are out of the reach of most people, look at watches and not Chrystal Quartz based ones either.

Computers, CNC equipment, Lasers, and Robotics have given us an Affordable, Quality product that would impress any craftsman and with much improved speed. Parts that are basically EXACT DUPLICATES and INTERCHANGEABLE period.

Many more people own Remington or Winchester shotguns, than Holland-Holland Side by Sides. You can own either, let your wallet and desires decide.

I'm just glad to be enjoying the benefit of modern production techniques as they allow me to possess a few fine fitting and shooting firearms.

JMHO.

I think your right.

The problem isn't the manufacturing process itself. It's why that process is used.

The reason is consumers. We want it NOW and we want it CHEAP!

 

[jkc]

Two words.....Chevy Volt.

Two more: Chevy Vega

 

[forresth]

This thread sorta got side tracked. But, while it's on the siding, I was raised poor and the idea that if a car didn't give trouble, you kept it. It was a "good" car. So, far, the only car I have ever kept, and still drive, is a 1986 GMC Surburban with a Detroit Diesel engine in it. Put an antique tag on it this year.

Dad's work truck (84 Dodger Prospector 3/4 ton 4x4) was too old for "cash for clunkers". It only has about 40k miles on it, and that includes a road trip to Yellow Stone and another to DC

 

[McBear]

The guy that I rode out with and I had a discussion about this. We both mentioned how a lot of the quality "foreign" auto makers use groups who are responsible for building a single car at a time, instead of the assembly line where each worker puts on a specific part.

Those foreign brands, even the ones built in the USA, have a better reputation for quality than the American brands.

It seems strange to me that S&W would go from a system that worked to one that doesn't work as well.

I have been to Ford plants [Louisville], Toyota [Georgetown, KY] and GM Corvette [Bowling Green, KY] in the past year. All use very similar assembly line processes. And quality of Ford, GM, Toyota and other manufacturers are about the same now.

I toured the Mercedes plant in Sindelfingen, Germany where my 2006 E500 was made. Very similar assembly line processes. And, at 120,000 miles still mindnumbingly good quality [I have had to replace the license plate lamp].

Lincoln, Buick, Caddy and Ford all are in the Top 10 in reliability for 2011. Lincoln is #1.
JD Power's 2011 Vehicle Dependability Study names Lincoln best brand, Toyota wins most segments

 

[Maddog 521]

When did the fitters/assemblers stop being responsible for putting the entire firearm together?